What do YOU think a liberal is?

[BuckNaked]

Also, I meant to point out that income taxes aren't the full measure of taxes paid. There are also sales taxes, which are regressive. And there are property taxes which are paid indirectly even by those who rent.

I understand that, but sales taxes are a state issue, not a federal one. And property taxes are local, not federal. I'm talking about the federal income tax burden in this country, not state and local tax policies. The fact that Joe Smith is paying sales tax and property tax via rent is irrelevent to me when discussing the fact that he's also receiving a refundable tax credit that is being paid for by someone else.

 

[poohandwendy]

Ok, I'll sign up for that, a flat tax on all income at a fixed percentage with no deductions, no shelters, no credits, no exemptions.

Exactly. But, the people at the extreme ends will make sure it never happens, the wealthy and the poor.

 

[LuvDuke]

LOL, I am sure.

The flip side of that is the adjusted minimum tax that screws us every year. The government essentially decided that we (electrician and manicurist) are amongst the wealthy and should be penalized for our hard work. It's an extra tax that we 'qualify' for...bend over Mr and Mrs PAW and take it.

It's a real bunch of horse crappola, let me tell you.

Well your conservative Republican Congress, along with your conservative Republican president, had a golden opportunity to get rid of the AMT. The instituted tax cuts twice. They just didn't get around to you. They didn't because if they did, the top 1% wouldn't have been able to get their tax cut. I hope you enjoyed bending over for the Republicans.

 

[Charade]

Regarding the discussion of minimum wages and free markets, I think liberals recognize that free markets have their limitations. Information is not equally available (hence the securities laws), labor is not as freely mobile as capital, labor is less able to exercise its relative market power unless it organizes, and the accumulation of economic power in certain industries destroys competitive balance (hence the antitrust laws). I think any sane person recognizes the need for some forms of restrictions on free markets, we just differ at the margins.

Which leads to the false premise that being a conservative means and unfettered, unrestricted market.

 

[poohandwendy]

Well your conservative Republican Congress, along with your conservative Republican president, had a golden opportunity to get rid of the AMT. The instituted tax cuts twice. They just didn't get around to you. They didn't because if they did, the top 1% wouldn't have been able to get their tax cut. I hope you enjoyed bending over for the Republicans.

Who said that all republicans are thrilled with all things under the current adminstration? We didn't matter, I am aware of that. But we are still not going to matter with a Democratic administration. They worry more about the bottom percent.

 

[MassJester]

I understand that, but sales taxes are a state issue, not a federal one. And property taxes are local, not federal. I'm talking about the federal income tax burden in this country, not state and local tax policies. The fact that Joe Smith is paying sales tax and property tax via rent is irrelevent to me when discussing the fact that he's also receiving a refundable tax credit that is being paid for by someone else.

But they are all connected because money flows from the federal government for local projects into which state and local revenues are pooled. Roads are local initiatives.

You pick one program, and label it the entire tax burden when the system is interconnected via means and ends.

 

[LuvDuke]

Bringing this back to the OP, it's fairly obvious that some haven't got the foggiest idea what the hell they're talking about when it comes to defining a liberal. It's the same bloviating talking points drivel.

 

[Charade]

Ok, I'll sign up for that, a flat tax on all income at a fixed percentage with no deductions, no shelters, no credits, no exemptions.

Which is why I think it's important that people know (and I believe many don't, they think in dollars, not percentages) what their effective tax rate is before the jump on the flat tax bandwagon. Because I have mortgage interest deduction, my effective tax rate is far below the rate the tax tables show for my income level. I would actually pay slightly more in terms of dollars if all the deductions/credits were eliminated.

 

[LuvDuke]

But they are all connected because money flows from the federal government for local projects into which state and local revenues are pooled. Roads are local initiatives.

You pick one program, and label it the entire tax burden when the system is interconnected via means and ends.

Of course they pick one program. That's the only way the rhetoric fits their reality.

Everybody pays taxes whether at the pump, on their telephone, at the grocery store, on new tires, etc.

 

[Charade]

Bringing this back to the OP, it's fairly obvious that some haven't got the foggiest idea what the hell they're talking about when it comes to defining a liberal. It's the same bloviating talking points drivel.

Same goes for the other side my dear.

 

[BuckNaked]

But we are still not going to matter with a Democratic administration. They worry more about the bottom percent.

Yep, in fact we'll matter less than we do now. We haven't been hit by AMT (yet), but I'm sure our time is coming.

Which leads to the false premise that being a conservative means and unfettered, unrestricted market.

Exactly.

But they are all connected because money flows from the federal government for local projects into which state and local revenues are pooled.

Yep, which is something else that should be stopped. Maryland roads are Maryland's problem - let them pay for it, just like I would expect, as a Virginia resident, to pay for Virginia's roads.

You pick one program, and label it the entire tax burden when the system is interconnected via means and ends.

For the vast majority of people that actually pay income taxes, the federal income tax burden is much, much higher than the state income tax burden. And it isn't my Virginia income tax that is paying for the refundable tax credits for a person in Texas - it's my federal income tax. Money is coming directly out of my pocket and being put into someone else's, someone that is making no contribution whatsoever to the federal income tax burden that we all should share in.

 

[DancingBear]

That's where we disagree. The wealthy don't get better roads, more police protection or more government services than than the poor. While I disagree with a progressive income tax structure, I can see the logic behind those being able to afford more paying more. But getting "more for their money" from the government? Sorry, I just don't buy that. Nor do I buy the opinion that taking from one group and giving to another is not income redistribution.

Roads (and rails and air travel) facilitate commerce--the wealthy own the businesses. Police (and fire) protection keeps protects assets, which are owned by the wealthy. Securities regulation keeps the capital markets viable--the wealthy make money in investments. Government research throws off products to business, like pharmaceuticals, health care, the internet and the aeronautics industry. Welfare keeps beggars off the streets, and promotes civil order. Generally speaking, government facilitates everything that enables the wealthy to accumulate wealth.

 

[BuckNaked]

Same goes for the other side my dear.

Nah, it's only one way.

 

[Charade]

Of course they pick one program. That's the only way the rhetoric fits their reality.

Everybody pays taxes whether at the pump, on their telephone, at the grocery store, on new tires, etc.

But someone who buys gas, pays a phone bill, buys tires, etc doesn't get all those taxes back in addition to a extra "rebate" just because their income level is under the threshold.

 

[DancingBear]

Yep, which is something else that should be stopped. Maryland roads are Maryland's problem - let them pay for it, just like I would expect, as a Virginia resident, to pay for Virginia's roads.

So you want to undo the interstate highway system? Instituted by that great liberal Eisenhower? You want to pay for those Virginia roads that feed workers into the District?

 

[DancingBear]

Which leads to the false premise that being a conservative means and unfettered, unrestricted market.

How did what I said lead to this "false premise"? I said any sane person (a group which I am willing to stipulate both you and Brenda belong to) believes in some market restrictions, we just differ at the margins. So I don't think arguing against the minimum wage is as simple as saying "it's a free market."

 

[LuvDuke]

Same goes for the other side my dear.

Here's the difference. If I had to define a conservative, I'd say conservatives believe in less government, less government instrusion in one's private, fiscal responsibililty, etc.

None of that defines the current crop of conservatives.

Btw, a liberal doesn't believe government is the solution to all problems. Liberals believe we are the government as set forth by the Founding Fathers. Government and the voters are in a partnership to make things better.

Liberals don't believe government is the enemy. We are the government.

Liberals don't believe government is the problem. Liberals believe bad government is the problem. And everything the Republicans win on the "government is bad" rhetoric, they prove just how bad it is and what a crappy job they can do.

Frankly, I don't get why anyone would vote for someone who doesn't believe in government, believes government is the problem, and believes government can't accomplish anything. Would these same people buy a bottle of wine from a winery that tells you they don't believe in wine, wine is bad, they can't make a good bottle of wine, and nothing they do will ever create a good bottle of wine. Yeah sure they would ........... after a pink pig flies out of their butt.

Liberals don't believe in the redistribution of wealth. Liberals believe in fairness which does NOT translate to redistribution.

I could go on and on, but frankly, some the conservative shrill definers of "liberalism" are doing more damage to themselves and their credibility than I could ever do. Keep up the good work.

 

[Oreo Cookie]

The current tax system most certainly does redistribute income. Or do you believe that the money paid out in refundable credits, welfare benefits and other social programs just materializes out of thin air?

It doesn't - it's money that is put into the system by taxpayers, then handed out to people that aren't contributing.

I support having a welfare program, but I do agree that we need to re-examine the program, and do modifications. I believe in giving people a helping hand, but we should not encourage people to want to live off the government. We need education and job training programs to go along with welfare benefits. We also need job placement programs, and I would favor tax cuts for corporations that participate in job placement programs that help people earn a "living wage" and get them off public assistance.

Why do I support welfare programs? Because in 2005 12% of the US population lives below the poverty level, and regarding children 18% live below the poverty level (according to a 2005 study by US Dept of Health and Human Services). The poverty level is currently defined as 2 people making less than $13200, and a family of 4 earning less than $20,000. Most minimum wage jobs, even if they are fulltime, do not provide health care. The poverty level is also below what I think most people would even consider a living wage.

One example of a subsidy I do not support is the current Farmer Subsidy. This program needs to be seriously looked at, and then changed. The federal government has paid at least $1.3 billion in subsidies for rice and other crops since 2000 to individuals who do no farming at all, according to an analysis of government records by The Washington Post. Now this is where programs fail. We shouldn’t be paying subsidies to people who don’t need them or don’t qualify. This money is going for farming subsidies for people who don’t farm. Now this is a waste of money, and we have both the democrats and the republicans to blame.

I think that if we don't address the disparaties and inequalities that exist between rich and poor, we will see a greater widening in the gap, and more and more people falling into the catagory of the working poor and below poverty levels. I think most people, if given the opportunity to better themselves through education, would do so in the hopes of obtaining a better paying job and not needing to depend on the government for survival. Sure, there are people that work the system, and try to get everything and do nothing in return, but I truly believe they are in the minority.

I have tons to say on Social Security, but I'll keep it simple. I know we all pay in, but I do believe that if you are able to retire with enough financial security for your retirement, you should not be able to collect SS. If, your situation changes and you need it, then okay you can collect.

 

[LuvDuke]

So you want to undo the interstate highway system? Instituted by that great liberal Eisenhower? You want to pay for those Virginia roads that feed workers into the District?

It's time to bring out this oldie, but goodie:

A Day in the Life of Joe Conservative
by Anonymous


Joe gets up at 6 a.m. and fills his coffeepot with water to prepare his morning coffee. The water is clean and good because some tree-hugging liberal fought for minimum water-quality standards. With his first swallow of water, he takes his daily medication. His medications are safe to take because some stupid commie liberal fought to ensure their safety and that they work as advertised.

All but $10 of his medications are paid for by his employer's medical plan because some liberal union workers fought their employers for paid medical insurance -- now Joe gets it, too.

He prepares his morning breakfast: bacon and eggs. Joe's bacon is safe to eat because some girly-man liberal fought for laws to regulate the meat packing industry.

In the morning shower, Joe reaches for his shampoo. His bottle is properly labeled with each ingredient and its amount in the total contents because some crybaby liberal fought for his right to know what he was putting on his body and how much it contained.

Joe dresses, walks outside and takes a deep breath. The air he breathes is clean because some environmentalist wacko liberal fought for the laws to stop industries from polluting our air.

He walks on the government-provided sidewalk to the subway station for his government-subsidized ride to work. It saves him considerable money in parking and transportation fees because some fancy-pants liberal fought for affordable public transportation, which gives everyone the opportunity to be a contributor.

Joe begins his work day. He has a good job with excellent pay, medical benefits, retirement, paid holidays and vacation because some lazy liberal union members fought and died for these working standards. Joe's employer pays these standards because Joe's employer doesn't want his employees to call the union.

If Joe is hurt on the job or becomes unemployed, he'll get a worker compensation or unemployment checks because some stupid liberal didn't think he should lose his home because of his temporary misfortune.

It is noontime and Joe needs to make a bank deposit so he can pay some bills. Joe's deposit is federally insured by the FSLIC because some godless liberal wanted to protect Joe's money from unscrupulous bankers who ruined the banking system before the Great Depression.

Joe has to pay his Fannie Mae-underwritten mortgage and his below-market federal student loan because some elitist liberal decided that Joe and the government would be better off if he was educated and earned more money over his lifetime. Joe also forgets that in addition to his federally subsidized student loans, he attended a state funded university.

Joe is home from work. He plans to visit his father this evening at his farm home in the country. He gets in his car for the drive. His car is among the safest in the world because some America-hating liberal fought for car safety standards to go along with the taxpayer funded roads.

He arrives at his boyhood home. His was the third generation to live in the house financed by Farmers' Home Administration because bankers didn't want to make rural loans.

The house didn't have electricity until some big-government liberal stuck his nose where it didn't belong and demanded rural electrification.

He is happy to see his father, who is now retired. His father lives on Social Security and a union pension because some wine-drinking, cheese-eating liberal made sure he could take care of himself so Joe wouldn't have to.

Joe gets back in his car for the ride home, and turns on a radio talk show. The radio host keeps saying that liberals are bad and conservatives are good. He doesn't mention that the beloved conservatives have fought against every protection and benefit Joe enjoys throughout his day. Joe agrees: "We don't need those big-government liberals ruining our lives! After all, I'm a self-made man who believes everyone should take care of themselves, just like I have."

 

[BuckNaked]

I think you're late to the game - wasn't that already posted in this thread?