What do you mean " WE " Paleface ?

[treesinger]

Originally posted by wdwdvcdad
It's one thing to love your heritage. It is another to put it before your love of country. By hyphenating America with some other country, that is what you are doing. If you were born in another country, that is one thing. If you were not, you are just looking for attention...trying to separate from the whole. My family had to fight for its rights, too. Get over it.

I'm with you, EXCEPT for the GET OVER IT thing. Whether or not you think it is right to dwell on the past, no one has the right to tell someone that they don't have the right to be offended at how their ancestors were treated.

I, for one, am an advocate of moving on and looking forward. Remembering the past, but not letting the past unduly influence my future. If someone else wants to make that choice, who am I to say that they can't?

Getting back to African Americans. Is it because Blacks in this country were called all sorts of names, most not pleasant, that African American came into play.
There's a better way for me to say this. Lemme see. Blacks in the American past were treated as inferior outcasts that were at best tolerated in early America. They were called many names, and even the nicer ones carried the inflection of disapproval. Hence African American was taken on so that Blacks all over the country could emphasize that they are AMERICANS indeed, not a skin color or anything else.
So my question is, was the term African American actually created to emphasize the fact that Black are Americans too? If so, than anyone's idea that the hyphen separates Blacks from being American is getting it completely wrong.

And Robin, I'm not offended if you don't answer me. (I'm sure you were kept awake at night worrying about my feelings right? ) I really wasn't trying to pick a fight or anything. I felt that I was missing some subtle detail about the way you felt about this whole thing and was hoping to pinpoint it by dialoging with you here. But that's ok, I respect your space.

 

[treesinger]

Originally posted by Planogirl
Well said Robin. I don't understand why some people concern themselves so much with what others do.

To characterize all of us asking questions as trying to beat the American drum is wrong. While I disagree with the hyphen, I have also been asking questions to be sure I was on the side of right. Which is why I've been asking questions to Robin. I feel your unfairly lumping all of us together.

Just because I take a stand doesn't mean that I can't be shown that I'm standing in do-do.

 

[Robinrs]

Originally posted by wdwdvcdad
It's one thing to love your heritage. It is another to put it before your love of country. By hyphenating America with some other country, that is what you are doing. If you were born in another country, that is one thing. If you were not, you are just looking for attention...trying to separate from the whole. My family had to fight for its rights, too. Get over it.

We all had to fight for our independence. The difference is we all didn't do it at the same time and for the same reasons OR have to continue the fight to this day.

Mentalities like this is the reason we don't allow ourselves to "get over it." Nothing anyone can say or think will every make us either. In fact this thread has totally convinced me that I need to work harder at it.

For that I thank you all.

 

[Elwood Blues]

Robin, WHY do you need to try harder to show people who you are? Just BE who YOU are. Nobody can take that away from you.

Maybe if you stopped trying to show people that you're different, people would stop treating you differently.

 

[Saffron]

The amazing thing about this thread is ... after people explained why they do what they do, people STILL insisted they do it for some alterior motive. THAT in and of itself, is intolerance and ignorance.

And this:

It's one thing to love your heritage. It is another to put it before your love of country. By hyphenating America with some other country, that is what you are doing. If you were born in another country, that is one thing. If you were not, you are just looking for attention...trying to separate from the whole. My family had to fight for its rights, too. Get over it.

is a great example of intorlerance and ignorance.

Telling anyone why they do something is outrageous. Telling people why they do something AFTER people explained why they do it is a bold sign of intolerence. Telling them to get over it is something my third grade students say to each other when they can't think of anything else to say.

 

[Elwood Blues]

Originally posted by Saffron
The amazing thing about this thread is ... after people explained why they do what they do, people STILL insisted they do it for some alterior motive. THAT in and of itself, is intolerance and ignorance.

Maybe it's those people that need to continually exemplify their differences are the ones that are ignorant and intolerant. They have a distorted view of how others see them. They always have to have their guard up.

Could it be possible that they've felt that way (and were taught that) they are different for so long that they can't see that most people don't give a hoot what color they are or what country they came from? If someone else does care what color you are or what country you came from, that's THEIR problem. Why would you even care? Why the continued attempts to make sure everyone else knows what color you, what hardships your long dead ancestors endured or what country you came from? As long as you are aware of it and keep the enternal flame of knowledge burning, most of the rest of the people who aren't like you don't really care.

I know that *I'm* not saying that nobody should be prevented from being who they are and celebrating that as well. All I'm saying is that when people place self applied lables on themselves, other people are going to notice and possibly wonder why they need to.

I believe it was Robin that said she teaches her childeren to understand who they are and were they came from. IOW, be proud to be Black. Or did I misunderstand?

Being white, my parents NEVER said to me "EB, always remember that you're white, be proud of it and be proud of where you came from". Even if they would have, it wouldn't have been followed up by "and make sure everyone else knows it too".

 

[rcyannacci]

The difference is about power. Americans of white ancestry don't have to assert their rights as citizens because the balance of power hasn't demanded this of them as it has of other marginalized populations. If there were a historically equal relationship between white and black, the situation would be different.

Difference and diversity should be celebrated, a point to which I believe most people are agreeing, so the debate seems to be focus around the issue of diversity when defining Americanism. This is of course a question that citizens and policy makers have been struggling with for generations. When defining American-ness, leaders have been challenged with creating an identity that stretches to cover people living in various regions with various cultural backgrounds and various life experiences. Defining an inclusive "we"- American category means having to erase certain differences.

Here's where the power relationship comes in...the differences that are erased aren't those which affect white populations because, when these definitions were set, they were the ones holding all of the political-economic-social power. In essence, other citizens, to call themselves "American" had to conform to a cultural image of white-ness.

This is why the assertion of African-American, Native-American, etc. are so vital to changing this history of racism. These distinctions acknowledge diversity within the concept of American citizenship, and I believe that the framers of the Constitution would be intensely proud of this.

 

[Saffron]

John -- noticing anything different from ourselves is natural, wondering what those differences are is natural, finding out about those differences is natural and embracing differences, telling someone to "get out" or "get over it" because of those differences is insulting and intolerant.

Let's see how many times you get told to "get out", "you're not American if you do", "get over it", "it means nothing" and see if you don't have your guard up. What do you think? Do you think you would just say, "Hmmm. Hey you're right! YOU do love your country more than I do! You are a true American, I am not! I better go pack my bags!" Because someone states their beliefs on any issue doesn't mean that they "always have their guard up"? That would mean each time you joined in a fluff or political thread you always had your guard up???

If, as you say, people really don't "give a hoot" about any of those others differences, then why do they "give a hoot" about how anyone chooses to recognize those differences or not? Why is there this stand that to use two words to define your "Amercanism" is wrong? Why not just say, "you explained it, I don't agree with it, I will continue to choose not to do it, but I understand why you do now, thanks for the answers." and leave it at that? Why do you INSIST on saying it means something more or different than what's been explained to you? Or are you just not listening? (And sometimes I mean you directly and at other times I mean a generalized you).

This is the definition of intolerance: unwilling to grant equal freedom of expression especially in religious matters, unwilling to grant or share social, political, or professional rights.

I think those of use who think it's okay to define your "Americanism" with two words instead of one have always said it's okay to define yourself with just one, or three or ten -- freedom of expression is tolerated. But others "on the other side" are saying it's not okay, "it means nothing", "get over it", "get out" "you're looking for attention" "you're distancing yourself" "you're underminding this country" and on and on. Which is tolerant and which is not? Nobody is telling those of you who choose not to use _______ American why you should, what it means that you don't, that you should "get over it" because you aren't proud of your heritage, that you should "get out" because you don't want to express who you are. Not one person on this thread in favor using two words has said anything like that. We have just expressed what it means to use. Others have TOLD us it doesn't matter what you think, it means THIS.

And as far as this goes:

I believe it was Robin that said she teaches her childeren to understand who they are and were they came from. IOW, be proud to be Black. Or did I misunderstand?

All parents should teach their children to understand who they are and where they came from, no matter what or where that is. Did Robin say black? I don't remember reading that. I don't like speaking for her, but I have to say, until you've walked a mile in her moccasins or raise her son, I wouldn't go around implying anything to something she's written. There's more to heritage than skin color. Skin color is part of who they are, just like skin color is part of who you are, but I hope there is a lot more to you than just that, and I hope your parents told you all about it too.

My mother is one of 14 children, raised by two Irish Catholic parents who came straight from Ireland. That's part of who she is, that's part of who I am. She passed down more to me about our family and our heritage than just telling me about the color of my skin.

 

[Saffron]

Once again rcyannacci, that's a great post.

 

[Stepharoonie!]

 

[beattyfamily]

Originally posted by teh fish
"I'm an American. Anyone needing a prefix before "American" needs to get out"

Seen on a bumper sticker at a restaurant in Key Largo.

 

[rcyannacci]

Thanks, Saffron I think these boards are really great; an exercise in active democracy with fellow fans of Disney.

 

[minniepumpernickel]

Originally posted by Elwood Blues
Robin, WHY do you need to try harder to show people who you are? Just BE who YOU are. Nobody can take that away from you.

Maybe if you stopped trying to show people that you're different, people would stop treating you differently.

I think that Robin is one of the coolest people on here. Why does it bother you that she is proud of who she is, and wants to show it? It sounds like you have the hangups, not her!

 

[beattyfamily]

Originally posted by Virgo10


Yeah, I can see me walking around saying I'm a German/English/French Canadian/Irish American.

Roberta

How about a Mutt American? That is how I feel with all my nationailities in me!

I think it does our country more harm than good to put a prefix to American. I had so much more respect for Whoopi Goldberg when she said she's an American, not an African American.

If those (who put a prefix before American) want to that's fine for them, but I do not want to be forced to use it. I also don't appreciate my DD's school telling her she MUST refer to them that way.

 

[minniepumpernickel]

I also think that some people really don't understand the definition of patriotism. It doesn't make you more patriotic to put others down for wanting to highlight their heritage. Helping others, and being a good person makes you more of a patriot. No matter how big of a mouth piece one has. (Not directed at anyone specifically).

I get tired of all of the blow hards who sit around saying how patriotic they are just because they fly the flag.

 

[tiggersmom2]

Originally posted by minniepumpernickel
I think that Robin is one of the coolest people on here. Why does it bother you that she is proud of who she is, and wants to show it? It sounds like you have the hangups, not her!

WOW! I think that you are being pretty rude telling EB that he has hangups. He is just voicing his opinion. I also think that all of us that think it is unneccessary to put something in front of American are being pretty tolerant to those who are calling us "intolerant and ignorant".

Nobody is attacking Robin - just asking her honest questions and trying to understand her. I think it is sad that a realatively new poster gets blasted for having an opinion.

 

[minniepumpernickel]

For the record, I'm pretty sure that EB is an old poster. This is the way that I interacted with him on the DB. I think that he is pretty thick skinned, so I doubt that he'll mind!

Just because someone doesn't agree with you, doesn't mean that you need to be offended! *sigh*

 

[AirForceRocks]

Originally posted by minniepumpernickel
Just because someone doesn't agree with you, doesn't mean that you need to be offended! *sigh*

ITA, so why do some people get so offended when others say they don't see a need or a reason for hyphenated Americanism?

Everyone has a right to be offended, but they don't have a right to force everyone else to stop offending them.

 

[tiggersmom2]

Originally posted by minniepumpernickel
For the record, I'm pretty sure that EB is an old poster. This is the way that I interacted with him on the DB. I think that he is pretty thick skinned, so I doubt that he'll mind!

Just because someone doesn't agree with you, doesn't mean that you need to be offended! *sigh*

How in the world do you get I'm offended It seems to be the other way around - you don't see me telling others they are intolerant and ignorant. If I was going to be offended by something I don't agree with I would have never posted in reference to your post. So *please* do not assume things about me.

 

[minniepumpernickel]

Originally posted by AirForceRocks
ITA, so why do some people get so offended when others say they don't see a need or a reason for hyphenated Americanism?

Everyone has a right to be offended, but they don't have a right to force everyone else to stop offending them.

I had to read your post three times, lol!

Heres the scoop, it seems arrogant to me to have someone want to set the standard at all. It's almost as if the people in the unhyphenated camp are asserting that they are more patriotic than the hyphenated group. This bothers me. Does that make sense.

Why should anyone care and critisize Robin for calling herself African-American. Yes, that is a put down.