Weeding out the bad seeds

[wickywinn]

These are 2 totally different things. Offering a cigarette to a 7 year old is against the law, going to the park or playing in an unfenced yard aren't, they are different parenting styles.

My kids are older now, but I can honestly say I never had a list of dos and don'ts that I discussed with parents ahead of time nor has a parent ever come to me with any. I think the fact that you referred to the other child as a bad seed is what is rubbing many of us the wrong way. Just because the parents have a different style than you do doesn't make the child a bad seed.

I know they're different, I was just making a point. When asked if my child can leave their house unattended and I tell you no, I expect you to respect that. If you're going to do what you want, don't ask. I'm not asking them to fix him a special dinner or no snacks or no tv after 8 or anything. I would never ask another parent to change their household routine for my kids like that but sending them to the park alone knowing I don't allow him to do so is outright wrong and disrespectful. Going or not going to the park does not affect that household and how they run things whatsoever. She could have just as easily told them to go play in the backyard until I came to pick him up that morning.

I don't think I'm asking much really.

 

[surfgirl]

I'm not forcing ... my rules, in regards to my child's safety, on his parents. It has to do with them intentionally sabotaging my rules with my son.

Respectfully, I disagree with what you have stated here. You ARE forcing your rules on them... At their house, it is okay to go to the park alone. At your house, not okay. You are expecting them to follow YOUR rules at THEIR house... no park alone.

I don't think they are "intentionally sabotaging" your rules... these are more permissive parents. They are on their home ground. Clearly, the easy answer is your son won't go there to play. You aren't comfortable with their rules... and that is fine, but when you throw out terms like that, you are asking for trouble and confrontation.

Finally, think about calling this child a 'bad seed'. The cat incident would seriously concern me, but the other issues you discussed are parenting issues... not the kid. It isn't the kids fault that he was born with bad parents - and sometimes, kids behavior will get better under the influence of school and other kids.

(btw, I loved the use of 'parse' above... good nickel word!)

 

[luvsJack]

Both schools that we attended have a no-bullying clause that allows you to request that your child not be put with another kid. You can't request to BE in another kid's class, but you can request that they be kept apart. If you bring up bullying concerns (and it sounds like OP's kid is hanging out with a bully-in-training), most schools with anti-bullying policies will listen.



You must not have kids. Any seven year old I know will absolutely cave to an adult telling them to do something they know is counter to the rules of their parents, especially if the parents are not there to back them up. That's why kids don't make decisions, adults do.

QUOTE]

Our school has anti-bullying policies in action too; but I would be very upset if they were labeling kids as bullies just because of the opinion of a parent not by any child's actions. Kids shouldn't bully, but schools shouldn't label without just cause either.


I'm not the person you were speaking to in the second part, but I do have kids and mine were taught that they NEVER, EVER "cave to an adult" when they know that adult is asking them to do something that is wrong or even just telling them that its ok to do something that is against my wishes.

 

[Kallista]

In that instance, they know that no matter what an adult is saying to them, they are not disobeying the adult, the adult is disobeying ME.


Boy, phrasing it like that puts my teeth on edge. I really don't think that one adult is responsible for obeying another adult. (My kindergarten self is screaming "YOU'RE NOT THE BOSS OF ME!")

I would phrase it this way: "I asked the other parent to enforce a rule and she agreed to enforce the rule. When she didn't enforce the rule that we agreed to, I became upset because she didn't do what she said she would do."

 

[Kickapoo Joie Juice]

In that instance, they know that no matter what an adult is saying to them, they are not disobeying the adult, the adult is disobeying ME.


Boy, phrasing it like that puts my teeth on edge. I really don't think that one adult is responsible for obeying another adult. (My kindergarten self is screaming "YOU'RE NOT THE BOSS OF ME!")

I would phrase it this way: "I asked the other parent to enforce a rule and she agreed to enforce the rule. When she didn't enforce the rule that we agreed to, I became upset because she didn't do what she said she would do."

I don't think you're understanding me. I would be talking to the child-a child who an adult has been pressuring them to do something the child knows is not ok in our family but is having trouble saying "no" to the adult.


If I can frame it to the child that he's telling the adult "no" coming straight from me-like he's the messenger, as opposed to saying "no" with only a 7 year old's authority to back it up...

FWIW, I still don't expect my kids to be able to stand up to adults on anything but the most extreme examples-we vet who the kids hang out with pretty carefully so we don't have repeats of encounters with idiot parents.

However, if you did understand what I was saying and your phrase "I really don't think that one adult is responsible for obeying another adult" while you've accepted the responsibility of caring for my child, and you disobeyed my wishes, oh honey, it'd be one ugly scene between you and me.

Like the mom who knew I wanted my kids always belted in (DUH) and decided to let the kids roll around in the back of the minivan on the trip home. My kids (then 1st and 2nd graders) said "mom says we have to wear our seatbelts" to which she responded "oh it's fine, we are only a mile from home, just get in the back." Yeah, what the hell...

She emailed me recently and wanted to get together, and I said, look I'm afraid I just can't get past the fact that you didn't belt in my kids. I know it was years ago, but really, I'm just not cool with your mindset, so I think it's better that we don't hang out. She hung up on me. Ow, what a big loss that was.

 

[badblackpug]

I guess the bottom line is that you can't expect others to adhere to your rules. The only thing you can do is limit your child's contact with this child to an arena where you make the rules. I still think you need to have a discussion with the other mother about the incident, especially if you think she willfully disregarded your wishes. This, too, speaks to the assertiveness issue. If you can't be assertive with peers how can you expect your son to be assertive in situations which may risk his welfare? Your son should have spoken up and said "I am not allowed to do that." Maybe if he had said that things would have gone differently. Saying "a bad man might get us" makes him sound frightened or cautious, but " My parents don't let me (fill in the blank) can I call home for permission?" changes the situation entirely. I don't know of any parents that would willingly force a child to do something in that situation, plus it always gives you an opportunity to pick him up and remove him from the situation. Maybe this is something you can role play with your son. Believe me, this situation is mild compared to the choices your son will have to make as a teenager. It is best to teach him to stand up now, so that he is prepared for far more serious issues when he is older. Assertive does not mean rude. Your child can certainly get his point across in a polite way. It is all well and good to have a child who is deferential to adults, but it is not helping them to allow themselves to be manipulated. As an aside, studies have shown that assertive and outspoken children are less likely to be victims of predators and bullies.

Micromanaging a child's life, such as deciding who can be in his class and who can be his friends can backfire. It can backfire in 2 ways. One: is you have a child who REALLY rebels when they get old enough to get out from under the watchful eye of mom and dad, and never having made any choices or suffered and consequences, they really crash and burn. Two: you have an adult that cannot make a decision or complete a task without parental guidance. As another aside, my husband had a 2nd year resident in his program who made some serious mistakes and shirked some duties. Needless to say, he was hard on him and asked him to leave the department for the day. (for those of you who are unaware a 2nd year resident has completed undergraduate school, medical school, and had a year of "on the job training" as a physician) The next day he was called into his department heads office where he was confronted by this residents MOTHER for being too harsh on her son. Her son was probably in the 25-30 year old range! This is helicopter parenting at it's extreme, but unfortunately it is becoming more prevalent.

Back to the original subject, I think the OP should invite this other mother over and have a frank discussion about the situation. Explain to her that you do not allow your son to do X, Y, and Z and that you thought she was aware of that. Explain to her that since your rules are stricter (please note that I didn't imply better or worse) that it would be better to have the boys play at your house from now on.

 

[Kickapoo Joie Juice]

Our school has anti-bullying policies in action too; but I would be very upset if they were labeling kids as bullies just because of the opinion of a parent not by any child's actions. Kids shouldn't bully, but schools shouldn't label without just cause either.

The schools don't label either kid as a bully, they just recognize that some kids cause dissent when put together, and since it's in their best interest to have the school day run as smoothly as possible, they honor those requests. I think if you had a parent who had, like, 15 kids on the list the school would probably tell you you had an issue, though .

I guess the bottom line is that you can't expect others to adhere to your rules. The only thing you can do is limit your child's contact with this child to an arena where you make the rules. I still think you need to have a discussion with the other mother about the incident, especially if you think she willfully disregarded your wishes. This, too, speaks to the assertiveness issue. If you can't be assertive with peers how can you expect your son to be assertive in situations which may risk his welfare? Your son should have spoken up and said "I am not allowed to do that." Maybe if he had said that things would have gone differently. Saying "a bad man might get us" makes him sound frightened or cautious, but " My parents don't let me (fill in the blank) can I call home for permission?" changes the situation entirely. I don't know of any parents that would willingly force a child to do something in that situation, plus it always gives you an opportunity to pick him up and remove him from the situation. Maybe this is something you can role play with your son. Believe me, this situation is mild compared to the choices your son will have to make as a teenager. It is best to teach him to stand up now, so that he is prepared for far more serious issues when he is older. Assertive does not mean rude. Your child can certainly get his point across in a polite way. It is all well and good to have a child who is deferential to adults, but it is not helping them to allow themselves to be manipulated. As an aside, studies have shown that assertive and outspoken children are less likely to be victims of predators and bullies.

Micromanaging a child's life, such as deciding who can be in his class and who can be his friends can backfire. It can backfire in 2 ways. One: is you have a child who REALLY rebels when they get old enough to get out from under the watchful eye of mom and dad, and never having made any choices or suffered and consequences, they really crash and burn. Two: you have an adult that cannot make a decision or complete a task without parental guidance. As another aside, my husband had a 2nd year resident in his program who made some serious mistakes and shirked some duties. Needless to say, he was hard on him and asked him to leave the department for the day. (for those of you who are unaware a 2nd year resident has completed undergraduate school, medical school, and had a year of "on the job training" as a physician) The next day he was called into his department heads office where he was confronted by this residents MOTHER for being too harsh on her son. Her son was probably in the 25-30 year old range! This is helicopter parenting at it's extreme, but unfortunately it is becoming more prevalent.

Back to the original subject, I think the OP should invite this other mother over and have a frank discussion about the situation. Explain to her that you do not allow your son to do X, Y, and Z and that you thought she was aware of that. Explain to her that since your rules are stricter (please note that I didn't imply better or worse) that it would be better to have the boys play at your house from now on.

I guess I don't get the whole idea of asking a child to have the assertiveness, wisdom, and self-possession of an adult? Isn't our job as a parent to protect children so they're not constantly forced into risky situations? You don't stick a tomato plant out in the freezing cold and hope for the best, you acclimate it very slowly, over time, so it's "hardened off" by the time you put it outside and it can survive the harsh climate. I think the disagreement may stem from how much hardship we expose our kids to.

And I think the big difference is that some parents make conscious decisions to expose their children to small amounts of risk in controlled situations to help them learn and grow, and some parents just stop monitoring their kids as closely and call it "growth" and "independence".

And I think there's also a huge difference between independence and responsibility-the resident obviously never learned personal responsibility and consequences for his actions, that's a completely different life lesson than independence. My kids deal with the consequences of responsibility every day, but personal independence (at ages 10 and 9) really doesn't come in to play for our family at this point (ie the walkie talkies). How to stand up to teenage boys will come into play as well in a few years, but again, lessons appropriate for their age and responsibility on a level that 10 year olds can work with successfully I think are a lot more important-they can spend their time learning and having fun that's age appropriate rather than being saddled with trying to figure out adults...

 

[annagirl]

I guess I don't get the whole idea of asking a child to have the assertiveness, wisdom, and self-possession of an adult? Isn't our job as a parent to protect children so they're not constantly forced into risky situations?

Bingo!

You and I are of like minds. I have given my daughter plenty of rules and guidance and 'what if' situations and still she'll make a bad choice sometimes because she is a child!

While there are some situations where you can allow a child to try again and perhaps they'll learn from their mistake and do better the next time, but other situations should not be repeated. Pitting a child against an adult is one of those situations.

 

[luvsJack]

I guess I don't get the whole idea of asking a child to have the assertiveness, wisdom, and self-possession of an adult? Isn't our job as a parent to protect children so they're not constantly forced into risky situations?

Bingo!

You and I are of like minds. I have given my daughter plenty of rules and guidance and 'what if' situations and still she'll make a bad choice sometimes because she is a child!

While there are some situations where you can allow a child to try again and perhaps they'll learn from their mistake and do better the next time, but other situations should not be repeated. Pitting a child against an adult is one of those situations.

I never expected my kids to have the assertiveness OF an adult, but I did teach them to be assertive TO adults. If they knew an adult was telling them it was ok to do something that was not ok--they were to speak up and say, "no, I cannot (or will not) do that".

 

[roliepolieoliefan]

All of my son's friends' parents sit out in the yard with their kids. I don't have to ask them to, they just do it.

Wow thats nice tht everytime your son plays with his friends all the parents have time to do is sit out and watch them play, My kids play with the neighbor kids, 7 days a week at least 6-7 hours a day in the summer. I would never be able to get anything else done, if thats what I did everyday.

If all my work is done, I will sit on the deck and read a book or join in some games, but as much as the kids get together , I certainly couldn't devote every play moment to them nor could my neighbors.

 

[badblackpug]

The schools don't label either kid as a bully, they just recognize that some kids cause dissent when put together, and since it's in their best interest to have the school day run as smoothly as possible, they honor those requests. I think if you had a parent who had, like, 15 kids on the list the school would probably tell you you had an issue, though .




I guess I don't get the whole idea of asking a child to have the assertiveness, wisdom, and self-possession of an adult? Isn't our job as a parent to protect children so they're not constantly forced into risky situations? You don't stick a tomato plant out in the freezing cold and hope for the best, you acclimate it very slowly, over time, so it's "hardened off" by the time you put it outside and it can survive the harsh climate. I think the disagreement may stem from how much hardship we expose our kids to.

And I think the big difference is that some parents make conscious decisions to expose their children to small amounts of risk in controlled situations to help them learn and grow, and some parents just stop monitoring their kids as closely and call it "growth" and "independence".

And I think there's also a huge difference between independence and responsibility-the resident obviously never learned personal responsibility and consequences for his actions, that's a completely different life lesson than independence. My kids deal with the consequences of responsibility every day, but personal independence (at ages 10 and 9) really doesn't come in to play for our family at this point (ie the walkie talkies). How to stand up to teenage boys will come into play as well in a few years, but again, lessons appropriate for their age and responsibility on a level that 10 year olds can work with successfully I think are a lot more important-they can spend their time learning and having fun that's age appropriate rather than being saddled with trying to figure out adults...

I guess I don't get the whole idea of asking a child to have the assertiveness, wisdom, and self-possession of an adult? Isn't our job as a parent to protect children so they're not constantly forced into risky situations?

Bingo!

You and I are of like minds. I have given my daughter plenty of rules and guidance and 'what if' situations and still she'll make a bad choice sometimes because she is a child!

While there are some situations where you can allow a child to try again and perhaps they'll learn from their mistake and do better the next time, but other situations should not be repeated. Pitting a child against an adult is one of those situations.

I don't expect children to be as self possessed as an adult, but I do expect them to show a certain amount of responsibility for their behavior. Learning responsibility for your behavior starts young. If you take your sisters toy, you get time out. It graduates from there. If your 7 year old understands that, under no circumstances is he to go to the park without adult supervision, then I would expect him to follow that rule. Yes, children sometimes make bad choices, that is part of learning and growing. If we continually insulate them from making choices or from the consequences of those choices then we are not letting them grow and learn, and, as adults, they end up in the situation I described. How does a child learn to make good choices if they are never allowed to make any choices, or suffer the consequences of the choices they do make? Again, at 7, my kids knew that if there was certain thing they were absolutely forbidden from doing, if they did it there would be consequences. Saying to an adult "I am not allowed to do that, I need to cal my mother/father for permission," is not disobeying. My children also know that other peoples family rules differ from ours, some are stricter, some are more lenient, but just because X is allowed to do Y, doesn't mean you are allowed to.

I have been down this road, I have a follower. She was always letting other children influence her to do things she knew she shouldn't do. It did not negate her responsibility. She chose to break the rules. She could have stood up and said no, but chose to go along, for whatever reason, and those choices had consequences.

If I were the OP, I would not allow my son to play at the neighbor's house. Their rules on big things differ too much from my own, and my child lacks the confidence or the ability to stand up for himself in a situation where the possibility of rule breaking exists. He would still have consequences for breaking the rule. The next time the situation arises, and it will, he may think twice about not speaking up for himself. Just because the child's parents have more lenient rules, does not make him a "bad seed" or a "bully" and it is unfair to label him as such. I have friends who have very different beliefs about parenting than I do, some more strict, some more lenient. I have a friend that doesn't police the TV, and my child was coming home quoting movies I know she should never have seen. Now, I don't let her go there unchaperoned. I don't cut off the friendship, I just put certain limits on it.
I just don't think it is helpful to insulate children form all potentially difficult situations. I do agree that you allow independence in increments. I am not talking about leaving a child in the woods to fend for themselves, but being too overprotective either causes a fearful, dependent child, or a real hellion.

 

[annagirl]

Saying to an adult "I am not allowed to do that, I need to cal my mother/father for permission," is not disobeying.

This child told the adult they were not allowed and the adult said it was ok and to go do it anyway. I don't know too many kids, assertive or not, who would continue to argue with the adult when they had already expressed their side.

Geesh - he's 7, not 20. You really expect a 7 year old to handle the stress of such a confrontation? I sure don't.

 

[sk!mom]

I don't expect children to be as self possessed as an adult, but I do expect them to show a certain amount of responsibility for their behavior. Learning responsibility for your behavior starts young. If you take your sisters toy, you get time out. It graduates from there. If your 7 year old understands that, under no circumstances is he to go to the park without adult supervision, then I would expect him to follow that rule. Yes, children sometimes make bad choices, that is part of learning and growing. If we continually insulate them from making choices or from the consequences of those choices then we are not letting them grow and learn, and, as adults, they end up in the situation I described. How does a child learn to make good choices if they are never allowed to make any choices, or suffer the consequences of the choices they do make? Again, at 7, my kids knew that if there was certain thing they were absolutely forbidden from doing, if they did it there would be consequences. Saying to an adult "I am not allowed to do that, I need to cal my mother/father for permission," is not disobeying. My children also know that other peoples family rules differ from ours, some are stricter, some are more lenient, but just because X is allowed to do Y, doesn't mean you are allowed to.

I have been down this road, I have a follower. She was always letting other children influence her to do things she knew she shouldn't do. It did not negate her responsibility. She chose to break the rules. She could have stood up and said no, but chose to go along, for whatever reason, and those choices had consequences.

If I were the OP, I would not allow my son to play at the neighbor's house. Their rules on big things differ too much from my own, and my child lacks the confidence or the ability to stand up for himself in a situation where the possibility of rule breaking exists. He would still have consequences for breaking the rule. The next time the situation arises, and it will, he may think twice about not speaking up for himself. Just because the child's parents have more lenient rules, does not make him a "bad seed" or a "bully" and it is unfair to label him as such. I have friends who have very different beliefs about parenting than I do, some more strict, some more lenient. I have a friend that doesn't police the TV, and my child was coming home quoting movies I know she should never have seen. Now, I don't let her go there unchaperoned. I don't cut off the friendship, I just put certain limits on it.
I just don't think it is helpful to insulate children form all potentially difficult situations. I do agree that you allow independence in increments. I am not talking about leaving a child in the woods to fend for themselves, but being too overprotective either causes a fearful, dependent child, or a real hellion.

Very well said and I completely agree.