"We cannot tolerate this."

[kidshop]

Most of this country's ills these days come down to people no longer taking responsibility for their own actions. In a world where people can partake in welfare programs, take out more insurance, litigate, return things even after they've used them... there's essentially no risk to doing anything anymore because people can always blame someone else.

We have a semi-automatic weapon in our house. It is double-locked, dissembled, and hidden somewhere I would never be able to find it, much less open it, because I don't know where the key is. Only my husband, the owner of the gun, knows that. It will never be used for self-defense because really, the only places where I'd be able to have it accessible to USE for self-defense are also accessible to our young kids. Even if I put it high on a shelf, there is way more of a chance of my kids getting a step-ladder and finding it or of something else terrible happening with it than of us being able to use it for self-defense. But that's what responsible gun ownership is-- it means accessing all the risks of ownership, taking responsibility for anything that MIGHT happen with them, and doing whatever possible to make sure they don't fall into the wrong hands.

But because people are less responsible as a whole, I'm not surprised that there are so many news stories about the misuse of guns in this country.

What's it for? Why do you have it? (There are no guns in my past or present, so they are foreign and scary to me)

 

[KiKi Mouse]

I agree that there needs to be better mental health awareness and treatment.

However, Lanza's parents certainly had the money for treatment.

I think mental illness cohabitating with readily available firearms is the problem in this case.

Does anybody know where the military vest came from?

 

[themilesfamily]

I am not a gun owner but I dont think guns are the issue, it is pure evil.

But here's the problem. There are people who are "pure evil" in every country. Every country has their mentally ill, their evil people. So why is it United States that has this problem with gun violence?

Every country has evil people, including us, but we have far, far more privately owned guns than any other country and some of the laxest gun laws in the world. I think that's what makes us different.

 

[sam_gordon]

I am not a gun owner but I dont think guns are the issue, it is pure evil. Like someone else said guns have been around forever. Yes they took longer to load many eons ago, but who cares...any type of gun could have been used and I dont care if it was one life or 26 lives, that is one too many. Say he went in with just the handguns, bc most people are not hysterical over them. I have no idea how many rounds they hold but let say he only got to kill 10 innocent people, that still doesnt make it ok. We need to figure out what makes a person do something like this. It is the evil person who pulled the trigger!

What do we do until the bolded happens though? How do you identify someone as "evil"? The standard response from neighbors and family of serial killers... "he gave us no idea he was this violent."

 

[Mkrop]

Also-- "better mental healthcare".... is not that easy. It is not as obvious to diagnose conditions of the mind as it is to diagnose something like cancer. It is also not easy to treat, as there are no concrete "cures", and many ill people go through their entire lives with treatment, but without getting any better. At what point does that shy, introverted person become mentally ill and get treated? And what treatment do they receive that will ensure they're not a danger to society?

This is the slippery slope. There are tons of shy, introverted, Aspergers, computer geeks in the world. The majority of them do not want to kill anyone. This one did...why we may never know.

Plus mental health is such a hard thing to Dx from my understanding. It is not like take a blood test, or an xray and know for sure. It is not an exact science and the medications out there are not exact either. What may work for one may not work for another. And then comes the situation of who forces these people, these adults to take their meds. What if the meds freak them out more than their disease does and they refuse to take them. Or there are many people who suffer from mental illness who do not have any family support, who accounts for them.

And then heaven forbid any of them mix other drugs with their Rxs.

We cant force a cancer patient to get chemo if they refuse how do we force a mentally ill person to get the help they need.

 

[Domo]

I'm curious. There has been mentioned the idea of investment in mental health in order to control and help those at high risk of committing an offence. How does this work in the US? Can you be forced into treatment over there? If so, would it be means tested?

 

[sunshinehighway]

This is the slippery slope. There are tons of shy, introverted, Aspergers, computer geeks in the world. The majority of them do not want to kill anyone. This one did...why we may never know.

Plus mental health is such a hard thing to Dx from my understanding. It is not like take a blood test, or an xray and know for sure. It is not an exact science and the medications out there are not exact either. What may work for one may not work for another. And then comes the situation of who forces these people, these adults to take their meds. What if the meds freak them out more than their disease does and they refuse to take them. Or there are many people who suffer from mental illness who do not have any family support, who accounts for them.

And then heaven forbid any of them mix other drugs with their Rxs.

We cant force a cancer patient to get chemo if they refuse how do we force a mentally ill person to get the help they need.

Which is why any person with a mental illness, personality disorder, or on any type of drugs used to treat such things, should not have access to guns in their home.

Whether or not a person exhibits violent tenancies, these types of issues are hard to get a handle on and the unknowns are vast.

 

[Domo]

I have heard multiple arguments on the subject and whilst my position will remain definite, I do have one more suggestion.

How about education? All too often people learn their firearms "knowledge" off of hollywood. Ever seen what happens when a Glock 19 is fired at a car? Ever seen what happens when a high powered rifle is shot at, say a tree? How about automatic weapons like an L85? Ever even tried to AIM one of those?

The Godawful truth is that weapons are way more powerful than many think and more often than not can end up hurting the firing party. An illustration: one of my corps had heard that a .303 had a one inch recoil, so he held it one inch from his shoulder... >ouch<...

 

[Ginny Favers]

Which is why any person with a mental illness, personality disorder, or on any type of drugs used to treat such things, should not have access to guns in their home.

Whether or not a person exhibits violent tenancies, these types of issues are hard to get a handle on and the unknowns are vast.

Honestly, when I think about it, I don't know a single person who ISN'T "mentally ill", to some degree. My dad is afraid of snakes. My mom wipes down the sink 500 times a day. We all have our eccentricities, big or small, and we all have a breaking point. That the thing about the human brain-- it is too complex and has an infinite ability to surprise.

 

[sunshinehighway]

Honestly, when I think about it, I don't know a single person who ISN'T "mentally ill", to some degree. My dad is afraid of snakes. My mom wipes down the sink 500 times a day. We all have our eccentricities, big or small, and we all have a breaking point. That the thing about the human brain-- it is too complex and has an infinite ability to surprise.

But are they on medication which effects their brains? Are they in treatment? That's the important thing. Its more than just little quirks. I remember after the Aurora shooting some of the same posters talking about how they are responsible gun owners were on a different thread taking about the anti depressants they take or have taken. That, to me, is part of the problem. Now maybe those people are perfectly fine and there is no concerns about them owning guns. Shouldn't there be someone checking though?

 

[izzy]

I also think that our children are potentially getting desensitized by this violence, both in real life and because of the graphic violent video games.

True story - On Saturday I was in line at Test Track. I heard a family behind me talking about Christmas presents and what Santa was going to bring. The little girl - looked to be around 6 or 7 years old - was telling her parents that she wanted the video game "Assasin's Creed." Her parents said "We'll see."

Folks, this is one day - ONE DAY - after the CT shootings. Now for all I know her parents have absolutely no intention of buying their child such a game, but I couldn't believe that a child that young was even asking for it as a present.

With regard to mental health, we have a big problem in this country. This summer we through a horrendous ordeal with my father, who has dementia. We tried to get him admitted for some help, but all of the mental health practioners kept saying that it was my father's choice and that they (and we, his family) had no legal right to admit him, even though he was a danger to himself. Um, excuse me - he has dementia and cannot think clearly. How in the hell is he the one being allowed to make this decision?!?!

 

[Ginny Favers]

But are they on medication which effects their brains? Are they in treatment? That's the important thing. Its more than just little quirks. I remember after the Aurora shooting some of the same posters talking about how they are responsible gun owners were on a different thread taking about the anti depressants they take or have taken. That, to me, is part of the problem. Now maybe those people are perfectly fine and there is no concerns about them owning guns. Shouldn't there be someone checking though?

A good number of mentally ill people don't go for treatment and are not on medication. So many people I know gave up on seeking treatment because they couldn't find anything that worked for them, or because they didn't have insurance and the cost was too high. Just banning people in treatment from owning guns is ignoring a very big part of the mentally ill population. It also wouldn't have stopped this tragedy, since the guns belonged to his mother, and not to him.

 

[sunshinehighway]

A good number of mentally ill people don't go for treatment and are not on medication. So many people I know gave up on seeking treatment because they couldn't find anything that worked for them, or because they didn't have insurance and the cost was too high. Just banning people in treatment from owning guns is ignoring a very big part of the mentally ill population. It also wouldn't have stopped this tragedy, since the guns belonged to his mother, and not to him.

So do nothing and carry on? Something needs to change and discussing these things is at least a start.

 

[DizBelle]

It used to be that the mentally ill could be confined for long periods of time until they were well. This changed in either the late 60s or early 70s due to abuse of the patients. In some cases, people were wrongly incarcerated. We would need to have checks and balances- maybe more familial involvement, in order to keep patients in hospitals until they were stable on their meds and doctors proclaim they were ok to leave.
Insurance needs to change as well. I know a girl Sandy, who went into the hospital severely depressed and suicidal. After 3 days, the insurance company said she had to leave because she was no longer suicidal on that day. Her doctors tried to fight because they were afraid she might become suicidal again but the insurance companies refused so she went home. She was readmitted a few days later after taking a razor blade to her wrists. Let doctors take care of medical needs not bureaucrats.

Probably for another thread but, insurance companies do not dictate what treatment you can get. They only dictate what they will pay for. You can have any treatment you and your doctor want. You just may have to pay for it.

 

[Becky2005]

Sadly, I really don't think there is anything that can reasonably be done if we want to continue to have a free and open society.

By the way, this school did have its doors locked and the killer forced his way in. Even if a police officer had been stationed there, the killer would have probably shot him before the officer could have done anything, especially given the type of weapon the killer was using.

To make certain things illegal doesn't matter to certain elements of society. Drugs such as heroin, cocaine, etc. are illegal, yet plenty of people still manage to be able to find them. As much as it pains me to say this, the same thing would happen assault-type weapons.

Controls only work on the good people.

My daughter made that comment too -- drugs are illegal yet people still use them. It wouldn't matter if you made guns illegal -- if someone wanted to use them for something bad, they would.

I was just thinking about this after the tragedy since really there is no place safe. I don't know if anyone remembers the McDonald's Massacre that happened in the 80's but I remember that and the shock that no one ever gave it a thought that someone could just walk into a fast food place and start shooting. They tore it down and built a park there. It was the first time anything like that had happened, at least I think it was. It boils down to -- anywhere there are people, someone could open fire/bomb/cause harm to people if they were intent on it.

The only way (that I can think of, I'm sure there are others) to possibly change it is to make the schools like prisons and do we want to do that? We have some schools around here that every time we pass them think "it looks like a prison" and they aren't they are just the regular High Schools but it needs to hold lots of people and it is built pretty much the same way, the only difference is there is no barbed wire fence/guard towers but otherwise...look a lot a like.

 

[newt2]

Yes. If you wanted to purchase a gun directly from me (a non dealer) there is no paper trail. The registration idea can be scary, but does have merit.

That should be closed. I understand that back in 1995 when this was put into place, the technology did not exist to be able to run a background check from your home computer. It does now though.

 

[Domo]

Lets face it CRAZY IS CRAZY.

Oh my no. I deal with "crazy" day in day out and I can assure you that there are a myriad of illnesses that might drive a man to extremes due to diminished responsibility and at the same time there are a million illnesses that will do nothing of the sort. Often the dividing line is VERY hazy and is really a case of YMMV.

 

[WebmasterAlex]

We do not have a debate board. Now is the time to think about the victims and their families not regurgitate the endless political gun control debate
ANY posts past this that mention the gun control debate on either side will be deleted and the poster will recieve immediate sanctions. That would include starting another thread on the topic

 

[gottaluvPluto]

And that problem is what exactly? I've seen many different things brought up in this thread. What are you saying the real problem is?

The culture in my old neighborhood loved violence. People trying to stab, beat, or run each other over. Dad's being proud that their son or daughter is in jail. Throwing a party because their daughter beat the crap out of someone and they are in the hospital.

People don't like to speak about the above neighborhoods. It's just politically incorrect.

So that is a problem. If we can't talk about it we can't fix it.

Kinda like mental illness is taboo in some cultures. If we don't speak about the illness, it doesn't exist.

 

[RobDoc]

*** Please read Alex's first post in this thread before posting any more comments about gun control - for or against. ***

http://www.disboards.com/showpost.php?p=46943742&postcount=1