WDW Dining Changes - Any Conspiracy Theories Out There?

[Eyesnur]

OK...That makes 438 times I've written that pragraph!!!

Yeah, but we thought you were kidding...

 

[DC7800]

Originally posted by DVC-Landbaron
summer hours (where I am an expert!) used to be midnight!! In 1998 (it may have been 1997 as I wasn’t there that year) they cut hours for the very first time!!!

July 1997 Magic Kingdom hours were still 9 a.m. to midnight. In July 2000 this dropped to 11 p.m. and to 10 p.m. in summer 2001 in the Magic Kingdom. These figures come from WDW "Times & Information" brochures. I didn't immediately find the 1998 and 1999 brochures (I'll look - it's a rather large "collection" (overflowing box) though) or anything prior to '97, but I have every year from at least 1992!

What I can say from memory is that 1980's hours were indeed midnight (Epcot was once 11 p.m.).

 

[DisneyKidds]

Just my $.02 with regard to hours since 1990. Up until the last few years we were seasoned summer and Easter WDW visitors. Midnight hours (or later) were the norm during these times right up until about 2000. Sure, there may have been some kind of reduction in 'off-peak' hours back in the 80's, but like Baron, I really wouldn't know about that.

I think that to try and back track to the 80's and say 'ha! hours were reduced back then!' tends to miss the real issue. Yes, Disney has faced hard times in the past. Yes, they may have made a short term decision to react in a certain way by cutting hours (kind of like the way Walt made those compilation films oh so long ago), because yes, Disney was, always has been, and always will be a business. Unfortunately, those running the business today may have lost that concept of reasonable short term reaction to a problem, and taken what could have been an acceptable short term measure (reduced hours) and made it a permanent part of the WDW landscape (as much as 3 years can be considered permanent - and I hold out hope it does change).

I think it is WELL SAID!!

Baron - as I typed that I knew you'd like it. Unfortunately, every time I want to stand up and say "I'm not in car 3!!! someone makes me make such a statement. However................

I'm not in car 3!!

ps to self - read the definition DK, read the definition - I still strongly believe there is hope..................it may just take a little longer than I thought..................

 

[hopemax]

Now I was hoping to wait to share this link with the "group" until I could get a few more pieces of information, and formatted the way I want it. However, since Scoop started referring to it:

WDW Hours Database

DC7800, since you seem to have lots of WDW hours, I would be eternally grateful if you could either scan the brochures or type them up. I really, really, really would love to fill in the holes and have every date verified from official documentation.

But that goes for anyone with old park maps and Times & Info brochures.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

God!! I hate to bury this little gem on page 7 or 8!! But since you asked:

Were the profits spent more for man-power or attractions? Or was it paid out in stock dividends? I'm not sure of the time line of events, but I assume MK,Epcot & MGM were making billions of dollars before ME went on his spending spree. Is it conceivable that this kind of money was ever put back into the parks?

Well, I can’t answer about the period of time just before Ei$ner took control. But I can give you a little perspective of how Walt did business.

MAJOR ANOUNCEMENT!!

I have often quoted this source (hell, I’ve cut and pasted entire posts!!) but I’ve never named him. My stock introduction has always been, “A poster on another site”. But this time and in the hope he will eventually join us (I’ve invited) I’m outing him!! He is Uttini of WDWBLUES. Now, don’t let the blues site turn you off right away. Contrary to popular belief these people are very much aligned in the same cars as we are.

Anyway, he said on Thu Oct 26, 2000 10:47 am:

Something which I came across - might be applicable here. I was looking at the 1965 Disney corporate annual report, and reading Roy Disney's letter to the shareholders. This is right around the time that they purchased the Florida Property. And it states that the total profit for 1965, after taxes was $11,378,778... So in round figures $11 million. Seems like a drop in the bucket compared to what Disney earns now - but of course this is in 1965 dollars. Anyway - the reason that I mention this here was because after reading this - I came across the following quote (again from the 65 report);

"The Company expended $8,026,384 for capital additions during the past year. Installation of new attractions at Disneyland park .... along with the acquisition of certain WED assets comprise the major portion of these disbursements"....

So - in the same year that the whole company earned $11 million – well over $8 million was spent on capital additions (at a level which was 70% of after tax profit) - mostly at Disneyland..

What is the current After tax profit for Disney in say 1999?? $1,300,000,000 .. That’s right - $1.3 Billion. SO what would %70 of 1.3 Billion be? $910,000,000 Hmm.. I would guess that $910 million HAS NOT been spent on new attractions...We are not talking about fixing the old stuff here either - this would be money spent strictly on NEW STUFF.. I mean - you could almost build a whole new theme park a year for that.. Even Worse... the 65 annual report goes on to say...

"Due to public acceptance evidenced by increasing annual attendance at Disneyland Park and our confidence that such trends will continue, the company, commencing in 1966, will embark upon the largest capital expansion and improvement program in the history of Disneyland. This program calls for approximately $45,000,000 to be spent over the next five years."

$45 Million.. That’s almost $9 million a year for five years. At a time in Disney history (1965) when the company's profit was only $11 million.. Can you Imagine Eisner dumping oh... $900 Million a year in New Attractions today?? It’s almost a joke. Yet that was the standard and level that Disney used to operate at. Think things haven’t changed at Disney Folks??? I beg to differ!

That $45 million .. by the way - bought the Tommorrowland redesign of 1967 - among other things.. Also - to give an example of just how much money $45 million was back in the late 60's - about $400 million built ALL of WDW back in 68-71. This included a whole theme park – draining the land (which was quite expensive in it's own right), building roads, support facilities, a fleet of boats, installing a monorail system, building a couple of hotels - and so on.

Ok. Chew on that folks!!

And thanks Uttini, wherever you are!!!!

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

So, let my admittedly somewhat dense brain get this right: From 1984 until either 1997 or 1998, summer park hours at WDW were not reduced. Correct?

So why does this (the third time it has been answered in this thread alone) have the feeling of a courtroom drama in some b-movie, just before the murder weapon happens to fall out of my pocket as I’m on the witness stand? I think the defense attorney has a line here. What was it again…. Ah…. Well…. Hang on, it’ll come to me… oh yeah!! I remember…

I object, Your Honor!! Asked and answered!!!

(And for the last time Mr. Scoop!!)

I thought it was in general agreement based upon comments by Baron and other that hours have decreased since 1984 through the 1980s and through today.

WHOA!!!!

Never said any such thing, Scoop!!! I said, time after time, that summer hours (where I am an expert!) used to be midnight!! In 1998 (it may have been 1997 as I wasn’t there that year) they cut hours for the very first time!!!

OK!! That makes 439 times I've written that paragraph!!!

July 1997 Magic Kingdom hours were still 9 a.m. to midnight. In July 2000 this dropped to 11 p.m. and to 10 p.m. in summer 2001 in the Magic Kingdom. These figures come from WDW "Times & Information" brochures. I didn't immediately find the 1998 and 1999 brochures (I'll look - it's a rather large "collection" (overflowing box) though) or anything prior to '97, but I have every year from at least 1992!

I’m a little confused!! Either you're reading your info wrong, or I am readin your post worng (highly likely!), or they printed one thing and implemented another. I wasn’t sure about 1997. I heard from CMs at the time that hours had been cut the year before as well, but since I had no first had knowledge I never went with it.

HOWEVER!!!! I lived the summer of 1998!! I arrived with Disney shirts, shorts and rose colored glasses!! A true Eisner fan!!! (notice the normal ‘s’) Two weeks later I left with glasses shattered, an “$” had replaced an “s” in the CEO’s name and my back was broken by that very straw! It’s awfully hard to forget something like that! Or be confused about it. Or even make an honest mistake!! It’s what I refer to as a defining moment!!

And I am quite certain that for the last two weeks of July 1998 the MK closed at 11:00!! And the very first week of August 1998 that was further reduced to 10:00!! INSANITY!!!!!!!

Baron - as I typed that I knew you'd like it. Unfortunately, every time I want to stand up and say "I'm not in car 3!!! someone makes me make such a statement.

Yeah!! Me too!! Welcome to my nightmare!!!

 

[DC7800]

Originally posted by DVC-Landbaron
I’m a little confused!! Either you're reading your info wrong, or I am readin your post worng (highly likely!), or they printed one thing and implemented another. I wasn’t sure about 1997. I heard from CMs at the time that hours had been cut the year before as well, but since I had no first had knowledge I never went with it.

Actually just really bad wording on my part. I only (so far) found printed "times" brochures for 1997, 2000, and 2001. The hours listed are actually correct for those years (July dates only). However, when I said "In July 2000 this dropped to 11 p.m." I only meant to compare two years, the drop from the published 1997 hours to the published 2000 hours, ignoring anything in the intervening period. I didn't mean to imply the cut in park hours first happened in 2000 - it didn't. I can clearly remember reduced hours myslef in summer 1998, I just don't have printed "proof" in front of me right now, so I didn't mention it. From what info I can produce, it is a fact there was a reduction in park hours during the time between 1997 and 2000 (and we know it happened in '98).

Sorry for the confusion. Perhaps if I were still fully awake (been a long day), I could type (think) clearly...

 

[crusader]

how did this thread deteriorate into and hours debate?

The disney model Roy presented back in the 60's is a true representation of what the initial planners had in mind when they purchased all that land. Invest approximately 80% in new development - which is brilliant. Think how much they saved in not having to outsource to finance this venture beyond getting an investor to buy in. But let's not lose sight of the fact that this was a corporate entity with growth potential. The investor would be inclined to give more dollars to this rising empire if they were lured by the appeal of growth and expansion opportunities - not to mention the impressive rate of return figures!

So there had to be a portion of that 9,000,000 coming from new investment money - not simply from the annual profits of the corporation and it was Roy's job to sell it to the public.

Does anyone have the equity figures of this corp back then to show how much of the cash expended came from new dollars vs earned dollars?

Do we really know how much was siphoned out by the executives percentage wise back then vs. today? My guess is that there may be some relativity. However, I am not blind to the factors of today which continue to be the driving force in a company - for every dollar earned, a feeding frenzy embarks until there is virtually nothing left!

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Do we really know how much was siphoned out by the executives percentage wise back then vs. today?

Well, I’m not sure. Maybe some others can give us some insight. Maybe Scoop would know. Or perhaps Eyesnur could tell us!! All I have is from the same guy who wrote that wonderful analysis that everyone is blatantly ignoring (except you). He posted to a guy named Paul who asked a similar question (actually about bonuses, Ei$ner was getting one at the time I guess).

The response from Uttini was dated: Sat Jan 13, 2001 9:12 am:

Paul - Interesting that you should ask that question. In the course of my research - I have discovered that the most that Walt ever made in outright salary in one year from Disney was about $100,000. I have no idea about Roy - as I have never seen anything about how much he earned. I do know that Roy was, until his death, the largest share owner of Disney- with all of that stock which passed to his son – who more or less still owns most of it.

Walt's stock - on the other hand - mostly passed to CalArts. Some went to the family corporation retlaw. Walt also made some money by selling the rights to his name, and for selling WED - both of which were his totally - before he sold them to the studio. The family also, until recently, owned the trains at disneyland.

And thanks again Uttini, wherever you are!!!!