WDW Changes

[minnie61650]

........

I noticed a DVC thread ... " $95 fee and MS Comments". There seemed to be a few comments about the new reservation fee for non-DVC properties. There are also a couple of long-time DVC members who have commented on this thread about benefits they miss which have been changed over their DVC ownership.

Perhaps that will help answer your question.

Thanks!

Cathy

I just finished all 12 pages of that thread and the only comment I found from a DVC member about benefits they miss which have been changed over their DVC ownership other the newly added $95 fee to book a Disney room that is not DVC was this quote:

From this thread:

http://disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1571278&page=9

True, but they can't start charging me additional fees to use my points at my home resort (other than maintenance fees), and since that is the only thing I am really guaranteed with my purchase, I don't see it as a big deal. It's kind of like changing the various perks over the years. Sure, it would be nice to still get the free passes, but it didn't stop me from buying more points when I couldn't get that. They could also take away all chances to trade out...Do I think they will? No, but they CAN. If you look at this as a prepaid vacation at your chosen resort for around 50 years, then that is all you are really guaranteed anyway.

People who bought into DVC the first few years that DVC was being sold DVC memberships got free park passes depending on the size of the room reserved. This incentive (not perk) was contined until the year 2000 and was a way to help sell the DVC vaction plan idea. The year 2000 and after they were discounted AP's.

The free park passes really were not marketed a perk.

I do not know of any DVC perks that have been changed over the years.

However, when Disney first started the DDP DVC members were upset that they could not buy the DDP when staying at a DVC resort on points. MS was able to make a deal with the DDP and now members and the guests that members rent their points out to can buy the DDP at the same price Disney guests pay and the DVC members and thier guests do not need to buy a package like those staying at a Disney resort need to do.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[minnie61650]

" $95 fee and MS Comments".

Booking a WDW room that is not DVC without a fee was never presented as a perk.
Any improvements or upgrades to the computer system or to the DVC resorts are paid for by the members.
They are paid either through booking fees (like the $95) or an overall increase in dues.

From this thread:

http://disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1571278

My DH wrote an email complaining about the new $95 fee to reserve Disney hotels on WDW property that are not DVC. We feel this changes the plan we were presented (not as a perk as it was never presented that way, it was the DVC plan) and rather than pay a $95 fee to reserve a WDW hotel, we'll limit ourselves to only DVC property or offsite. We received a call from MS today regarding my DHs email. He reiterated our displeasure and that in implementing this fee, we will only stay DVC and if choosing to extend a stay, we'll either pay cash or look off-site and if looking off-site then we'll also eat off-site. The fee according to MS is being implemented to "streamline backroom operations" which will shorten phone line wait times. She said when you call to make a reservation at a non-DVC place, MS castmembers have to go into 5 separate systems and make a minimum of 3 phone calls to make that reservation all while we're on hold, blocking phone lines. She stated that if they collect enough of $95 fees then they can upgrade their computer systems streamlining the process resulting in us seeing shorter hold times and better service.........

.

Reply from a Moderator of the DVC boards:

You realize that they don't have to allow us to use our points anywhere except our home resorts, right? There are no guarantees that WDW resorts, cruises or anything other than your home resort will remain a booking option.

You also realize tha ANY DVC computer upgrades won't be paid for by Disney, they are paid either through booking fees (like the $95) or an overall increase in dues.

And this post seems to sum it up:

Bingo. A trade out incurs a fee. Staying at a non-DVC resort is a trade out so the expectation is that you will pay a fee. The oddity for all these years was NOT having to pay a fee. All of the other options, except WDW and DL resorts, required a fee all the way along. Nothing has changed as to the flexibility of the membership. All that has changed is that the fee structure is now consistent.

 

[shanomi4]

Shanomi4 - I just wanted to jump in here and thank you for your question and to appologize for not getting to it yet. It's been a busy day here at the Evil Anti-Disney League of Haters headquarters and my posting time has been limited. I'll get you a response as soon as I'm able.

I understand about posting time. here at the Uneducated Misdirected-Disney League of Past Guests headquarters...things have been pretty crazy this time of the year.

 

[MassJester]

Many elements could be contributing to increases in attendance, including increased marketing, free food, Universal neglecting its parks for a number of years, etc. But is it sustainable over the long term? Are you giving folks the kind of "magical" experience that they had as youngsters that made them love Disney in the first place, or are you just another nice family vacation destination? Are you creating "magic," or just selling the magic that was created years ago, or by others (including Pixar, whose films wereconsistently underestimated by Disney management and marketing).

You have been asking the same question for the last few years--right here on these boards. Can the year over year increases be sustained.

Apparently they can. After the 2001 mess there has been a steady year over year increase. Good news, no? If people were leaving disatisfied, it seems unlikely that would be true.

Why did people flock to Disneyland for its 50th anniversary? Because they had nostalgia for this incredible creation of Walt's, and because Ouimet changed the light bulbs and gave the place a new paint job. Obviously Ouimet thought those things mattered.

If the declines that folks here have noticed don't matter, then why are there "pilot programs" at some resorts to pump up the service quality?

If the stuff the naysayers are talking about doesn't matter, why is Iger now (finally) admitting that DCA has problems?

No one ever said these things don't matter, in fact, if you will look back, the thread began with comments about how things have moved forward. Who said they didn't matter?

Of course they matter and they are being seen to.

How come Pixar, where Lasseter said "quality is a business plan," was so incredibly successful that Iger had to go out and spend $7 billion to buy them, and give their execs power and autonomy, while Disney animation was churning out Chicken Little, Home on the Range and Cinderella XIV?

What I don't know about the movie business is a lot. However, it seems like the mistake has been corrected. And yet you keep bemoaning it? What do you want them to do? Selll it off? If not, be glad that they are back and hope they are more foresighted next time.

I'm sure we'd all be interested in a thread about the movie end of the business -- perhaps you should start one.

That said, I'm pleased to be able to say that (save for the 18% tip stupidity), post number 1,000 is about how things are going forward nicely.

 

[Mouseaholic!!!]

Many elements could be contributing to increases in attendance, including increased marketing, free food, Universal neglecting its parks for a number of years, etc. But is it sustainable over the long term? Are you giving folks the kind of "magical" experience that they had as youngsters that made them love Disney in the first place, or are you just another nice family vacation destination? Are you creating "magic," or just selling the magic that was created years ago, or by others (including Pixar, whose films wereconsistently underestimated by Disney management and marketing).

Why did people flock to Disneyland for its 50th anniversary? Because they had nostalgia for this incredible creation of Walt's, and because Ouimet changed the light bulbs and gave the place a new paint job. Obviously Ouimet thought those things mattered.

If the declines that folks here have noticed don't matter, then why are there "pilot programs" at some resorts to pump up the service quality?

If the stuff the naysayers are talking about doesn't matter, why is Iger now (finally) admitting that DCA has problems?

How come Pixar, where Lasseter said "quality is a business plan," was so incredibly successful that Iger had to go out and spend $7 billion to buy them, and give their execs power and autonomy, while Disney animation was churning out Chicken Little, Home on the Range and Cinderella XIV?

Dancing bear - sometimes you simply will not win here.

Since Disney does not publish attendance figures, I cannot comment on that other than Disney's advertising budget is now directed across to England and Europe.

However, I CAN comment about resort availability.

2006 My finance and I stayed at Boardwalk for the period which included Pop Warner AND Mousefest. BOTH Saturdays of those two weekens were completely sold out - all WDW resorts.

I just did a little search on Disney's online reservation system and both weekends this year have 23 resorts available for reservations.


next

In 2006 the period between Christmas and New Years had blackout dates. I know because a co-worker tried to plan a last minute holiday (6 weeks before) and couldn't coordinate the dates because ALL the resorts were sold out for Christmas Day and the weekend before New Years.

I also checked availability for 2007 and between December 21 and January 1 there are 23 resorts available.


Perhaps the park attendance is up - maybe they are staying off property. It doesn't seem that the resorts are as full this year as last....at least according to Disney's reservation system.

Maybe the resorts are too expensive and people are opting for the affordable lodging outside Disney to not give up a Disney holiday.

Travel within the US has certainly has become far more affordable to people OUTSIDE the US now - that could also be a contributing factor with the exchange rate between the British Pound and the EURO.

The British Pound is 2.05839 - that would equal CASTMEMBER discounts at WDW for them!

 

[DancingBear]

You have been asking the same question for the last few years--right here on these boards. Can the year over year increases be sustained.

Apparently they can. After the 2001 mess there has been a steady year over year increase. Good news, no? If people were leaving disatisfied, it seems unlikely that would be true.

I'm not talking about sustaining growth over a few years; I'm talking about sustaining customer loyalty over generations.

No one ever said these things don't matter, in fact, if you will look back, the thread began with comments about how things have moved forward. Who said they didn't matter?

Of course they matter and they are being seen to.

Some things are being seen to, some not. Will the efforts be continued and expanded?

What I don't know about the movie business is a lot. However, it seems like the mistake has been corrected. And yet you keep bemoaning it? What do you want them to do? Selll it off? If not, be glad that they are back and hope they are more foresighted next time.

The jury is out on whether the mistake has been corrected. Will Catmull and Lasseter really be able to accomplish what they want to do? There have already been signs that there is resistance from the Disney folks. Will DFA again become a place where talent wants to work? Will they really stop offshoring and outsourcing animation projects? Will Disney management and marketing folks stop badmouthing Pixar? With the $7 billion to justify, will Iger lean on Lasseter to make more sequels, and misuse the "asset," as he may be doing in DCA?

I'm sure we'd all be interested in a thread about the movie end of the business -- perhaps you should start one.

I think the areas are intensely related (that's why Lasseter has a WDI title, right?). The parks are a creative venture, and the movie end of the business shows Disney management's attitude about how creative ventures should be managed.

 

[MassJester]

I'm not talking about sustaining growth over a few years; I'm talking about sustaining customer loyalty over generations.

Ahhh, so it's not a six year growth pattern but a generational one. Now I understand. Ok, well, then since we won't know the answer for 20-30 years--might we adjourn the sky is falling discussion until the numbers are in?

Some things are being seen to, some not. Will the efforts be continued and expanded?

Don't know, do you? Aside from the recent increases in non-revenue generating expense (e.g., improved maintenance, additional CM entertainers), is there any other indicator to suggest a trend?

Will they really stop offshoring and outsourcing animation projects?

Why is this practice bad? Seriously, I don't know much about movies and I'm curoius.

With the $7 billion to justify, will Iger lean on Lasseter to make more sequels, and misuse the "asset," as he may be doing in DCA?

Missusing the asset? According to whom?

Do we have any reason to believe that Iger is going to take this approach aside from 'it's what boogie men do' sort of reasoning?

 

[CanadianGuy]

I understand about posting time. here at the Uneducated Misdirected-Disney League of Past Guests headquarters...things have been pretty crazy this time of the year.

Please get the name of our organization correct .. as a founding member you of all people should know the correct name is..

"Uneducated Misdirected-Disney League of Past Guests & Fanbois"

UMDLPGF !

(It's easy to remember cause it sounds like someone swallowed a lead coated Ratatouille toy.. )

Knox

 

[CanadianGuy]

2006 My finance and I stayed at Boardwalk for the period which included Pop Warner AND Mousefest. BOTH Saturdays of those two weekens were completely sold out - all WDW resorts.

I just did a little search on Disney's online reservation system and both weekends this year have 23 resorts available for reservations.

I gotta jump in here.

I booked December 6th to 12th.. Tail end of Pop Warner and including Mousefest... (I am attending neither) .. a while back and when I booked there were 3 resorts available when I booked.

I checked just now and there is avails at OKW and Saratoga Springs. That's it.

Checking December 1st to December 3rd .. Grand Floridian has availability. That's it.

Checking December 6th to 9th.. 2 bed villa at OKW. That's it.

Checking December 7th to 9th.. 2 bed villa at OKW. That's it.

Checking December 21st to January 1.. Only Port Orleans Riverside and Saratoga Springs show any availability.

Where are YOU checking for avails? Maybe you're checking Expedia or other travel bookers that buy blocks of rooms. I'm checking at waltdisneyworld.com.

Knox

 

[Another Voice]

Very, very quickly here -

Ahhh, so it's not a six year growth pattern but a generational one.

It's not a six year growth trend at all. It's a seven year recovery. WDW's attendance started falling in early spring of 2000. It's simply taken them this long to get back to what they had been doing before - but now with vastly shorter hours, abandoned rides and stages, and a 1/3 less land at WDW.

That's a lot of things but growth it ain't.

I should also add that even with the big boost from the 50th Birthday event, even Disneyland still fell short of its record season - and has been trending down this year. The "growth" that Disney has been reporting for Attractions for a long time has, from what I can see, been do to the fact that they have been cutting costs and raising prices - not from more-people-than-ever showing up at the gates.

Where are YOU checking for avails?

Exactly - what you see as "available" on Disney.com is not reflective of how many rooms WDW has open. They often close done large sections of resorts to save on maintenace (better to have a certain savings than take a risk on selling the rooms). Large chunks of WDW's inventory is allocated to outside operators like airlines, tour company, Disney Cruise Line, and Expedia. These rooms can, and oftern are, dumped back into inventory if they don't sell. Sometimes rooms are held for large events. Sometimes they hold out rooms for length of stay thinking they're hold out for bigger spending tourists.

It's a game called "yeild management" - the same game that airlines play. Saying that WDW must be busrting at the seems because you can't find a hotel other than OKW is rather misleading (to say the least).

Besides - if WDW needs so many hotel rooms why is half the Comtemporary missing, why has the Animal Kingdom Lodge gone condo, and where is the second half of Pop Century?

 

[MassJester]

Very, very quickly here -


It's not a six year growth trend at all. It's a seven year recovery. WDW's attendance started falling in early spring of 2000. It's simply taken them this long to get back to what they had been doing before - but now with vastly shorter hours, abandoned rides and stages, and a 1/3 less land at WDW.

That's a lot of things but growth it ain't.

It is my understanding that the attendance numbers the "recovery" was completed at the beginning of 2006 (while other central Florida destinations were going in the opther direction), and now the numbers have moved even higher. It may well be a lot of things, but it surely is growth.

If you have other information I'd be glad to see it.

 

[CanadianGuy]

I wasn't jumping in for the larger argument, I've learned that lesson..

And there very well may be 23 resorts available..

And WDW Resorts may or may not be bursting at the seams (your words) -- ....

But I'd like to know where the previous poster is seeing that 23 resorts datapoint.

He said specifically said it was at "Disney's online reservation system" .. I don't see it there. Unless he has access thru a CM portal or something.

If there's another public way - I wanna know. If for no other reason, my own selfish purposes.

Knox

 

[minnie61650]

Besides - if WDW needs so many hotel rooms why is half the Comtemporary missing, .....

One wing of the Contemporary was torn down. Which equals about one third or the original resort not one half.
Reports were made that hurricane damage affected that wing and the asbestos had to be removed. WDW management decided that they would tear down that wing and replace it with a C shaped tower 14 or 15 stories high.
Perhaps there will be more rooms than that wing had or perhaps the rooms will be larger. There are rumors the new tower may become DVC units but there are other rumors it may have Suites for cash paying guests.
It is good business to update hotels and make improvements.
Sometimes a hotel needs to tear down an old structure so that they can build new larger rooms. Sometimes interior walls cannot be removed to make the rooms larger.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Peter Pirate 2]

One wing of the Contemporary was torn down. Which equals about one third or the original resort not one half.
Reports were made that hurricane damage affected that wing and the asbestos had to be removed. WDW management decided that they would tear down that wing and replace it with a C shaped tower 14 or 15 stories high.
Perhaps there will be more rooms than that wing had or perhaps the rooms will be larger. There are rumors the new tower may become DVC units but there are other rumors it may have Suites for cash paying guests.
It is good business to update hotels and make improvements.
Sometimes a hotel needs to tear down an old structure so that they can build new larger rooms. Sometimes interior walls cannot be removed to make the rooms larger.

Just my 2 cents.

Got an excuse for the other half of Pop?

 

[minnie61650]

Got an excuse for the other half of Pop?

There are a lot of theories.

Here are some that was posted on this thread:

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1391731

........The only reason I can see that Disney is dragging their feet on completing this project is if they have run into an environmental issue that none of us are aware of. It just seems to me as though they are loosing money on this incompleted project. Just my two cents.

........
The problem as I see it at this point is this -- While during peak times the room availability in values is virtually nil .. for most of the rest of the year I haven't had much trouble getting a room 8-12 weeks in advance. That indicates that they are not sold out in most cases.

To open a resort that would run at less than 65% of capacity would be a financial nightmare. I'd rather they delay opening it till they need the capacity than open it and run it poorly cause it's sparsely attended.

I'm pretty sure they've run the numbers sixteen ways from Sunday and they'll wait till the time is right for them corporately to finish this.

Knox

One of the other problems with construction at disney / finishing projects, etc, is the availability of crews and materials after the hurricanes. We still have people with blue tarps for roofs. Disney had to put many things on hold so that peoples homes could be repaired.

.

I had heard construction was halted due to 9/11 - then the hurricanes came through. When Disney went to restart construction, the buildings were no longer up to newer codes (implemented due to the hurricanes) and couldn't be completed "as is" which lead to legal battles with the construction company. (I guess neither side wants to bear the cost of meeting these new code guidelines. Just what I had heard, but I wanted to throw another rumor/theory out there.

I posted this on that thread:

Word is they are understaffed right now and cannot find enough employees to take care of the resorts they have. That may be another reason they have gone to outsourcing some of the jobs--so they can use the CM's in the parks and in management.

One way not to have to worry about finding more employees to work in new resorts on property (hotel/motel )is to have a thrid party build and operate the new resorts.

I really think the Disney Corp. has decided not to expand in the hotel/motel part of WDW.

JMHO
----------------------------------------------

And this:

There was a poll that was recently on this board about which type of resort
DIS'ners stayed at.

From this thread:
http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1470258


about 8% stayed at the values
about 24% stayed at the mods
about 58% stayed at the deluxes


Taking a brief look at these figures (if they truly represent the current numbers of rooms rented at Disney) it looks like 3 times as many guest stay at the mods than stay at the values.

The Values have a total of 8,324 rooms.
All Star resorts = 5,664 rooms and Suites
Pop - 2,660 rooms

The Mods have 7,089 rooms
CBR has 1,921 rooms
CSR has 1,921 rooms and Suites
POFQ has 1,008 rooms
POR has 2,048 rooms

So (if the numbers really reflect what type of rooms are rented the most by the general public than ) the value resorts have 1,235 more rooms than the mods but the mods are used by 3 times as many guests.

No wonder All Star Music and All Star Sports have many vacant rooms during the slow times of the year.

If this truly represents the general public than it may be a long time before
Disney finishes the other half of Pop.

JMHO

 

[DancingBear]

Only Canadian Guy's explanation (low occupancy in off-peak seasons) makes any sense. Suddenly discovering an environmental problem when you've owned the land for 35 years, it was agricultural nothingness before you owned it, and your buildings are 80% completed? Nope. Availability of crews and materials? Didn't seem to slow down the work at the Contemporary, or AKL. And they didn't impose some retroactive building code revisions post-hurricanes--they already had their building permits and the buildings are pretty much done.

Occam's Razor, people.

And the idea that you outsource because you can't find enough good employees yourself makes no sense. Don't these outsourcing companies, and the Four Seasons, have to hire from the same labor pool that Disney does?

 

[DancingBear]

There was a poll that was recently on this board about which type of resort
DIS'ners stayed at.

From this thread:
http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1470258


about 8% stayed at the values
about 24% stayed at the mods
about 58% stayed at the deluxes


Taking a brief look at these figures (if they truly represent the current numbers of rooms rented at Disney) it looks like 3 times as many guest stay at the mods than stay at the values.
...

So (if the numbers really reflect what type of rooms are rented the most by the general public

Posters on the DIS (let alone those who hang on the Resorts board and respond to such surveys) are not representative of the average WDW visitor.

 

[CanadianGuy]

Since it's coming up here about the completion of PC.. the info that I'm hearing is that construction on the second half of Pop Century will resume in mid-late 2008 for a 2010 opening. This is obviously not from any 'attributable' sources.

We'll find out if those sources are correct.

And a small point..

... and the buildings are pretty much done.

For the Legendary Years, the main 'hall' building is complete (exterior) and 2 of the 10 buildings housing guest rooms are exterior complete. The eight buildings that are NOT there, have the 'pad' prepared with plumbing and electrical entrances, but nothing else.

For the two guest rooms buildings that are standing, none of the interior walls of rooms, plumbing or electrical is in place. One of the two guest buildings doesn't even have an elevator building or stairs as of today.

Knox

 

[DancingBear]

Ahhh, so it's not a six year growth pattern but a generational one. Now I understand. Ok, well, then since we won't know the answer for 20-30 years--might we adjourn the sky is falling discussion until the numbers are in?

Nobody said the sky is falling. But you can't just wait--choices made now have a long-term effect (particularly in making, or not making, capital expenditures).

You have to understand, we all hope that the positives we are seeing are a trend and not just isolated actions. But there is a long history going back to the Eisner era (which partly is being recognized with the new programs), and Iger's record and comments are mixed.

Also there is a long history of DISers defending every decision and development at Disney, even things like replacing EE with Character Caravan (and telling us that the guests wanted that!). Or denying that DCA had issues. I don't put you in that category, MJ, but that's partly what accounts for the response.

Don't know, do you? Aside from the recent increases in non-revenue generating expense (e.g., improved maintenance, additional CM entertainers), is there any other indicator to suggest a trend?

I see some nice improvements, but I don't think it's been sustained long enough to constitute a trend.

Why is this practice bad? Seriously, I don't know much about movies and I'm curoius.

Because what made Disney animation great, and what has made Pixar great, was attracting, cultivating and retaining talent over time.

Missusing the asset? According to whom?

Do we have any reason to believe that Iger is going to take this approach aside from 'it's what boogie men do' sort of reasoning?

As I said above, Iger's statements about the DCA changes read like "Hey, folks like that Buzz Lightyear thing, and that Monster's Inc. thing, and we spent $7 billion for Pixar--so the solution to DCA must be to put more Pixar in!" That's not the sort of thinking that made Disneyland and Epcot great THEME parks. It's the sort of thinking that led to the Disney Stores being full of plush and not much else. And which puts Pirates souvenirs into EVERY merchandising outlet in WDW. And which makes Cinderella XXIII.

 

[minnie61650]

Only Canadian Guy's explanation (low occupancy in off-peak seasons) makes any sense. Suddenly discovering an environmental problem when you've owned the land for 35 years, it was agricultural nothingness before you owned it, and your buildings are 80% completed? Nope. Availability of crews and materials? Didn't seem to slow down the work at the Contemporary, or AKL. And they didn't impose some retroactive building code revisions post-hurricanes--they already had their building permits and the buildings are pretty much done.

Occam's Razor, people.

And the idea that you outsource because you can't find enough good employees yourself makes no sense. Don't these outsourcing companies, and the Four Seasons, have to hire from the same labor pool that Disney does?

Well to be fair rooms at the CR and AKL will bring in a much higher profit rate than the value rooms.

The % increase from year to year of a deluxe resort is quite a bit more than the % increase they charge year to year at a value resort.

I did not think that outsourcing companies hire from the same labor pool that Disney does. AFAIK Disney hires from the local area and college students for the CP program. A lot of outsourcing companies will bring in workers from outside the local area.
I am pretty sure the Four Seasons will be bringing in their own management as that is the way they have done it in past.

JMHO