WDW and Universal. Who wins?

[Smugpugmug]

Well, fair enough, but I think it's a bit disingenuous to criticize Disney for an "expensive" line-skipping program, but laud Universal, when their's costs quite a bit more.

Okay yeah then I agree with that. Disney has the cheapest system in the theme park game.

 

[Aluminum Falcon]

I don't know about you but generally speaking people seem to be happier overall about how Universal's hotels are run and a lot usually point to that Loews a hotel company is running them.

If you removed this whole "bubble" aspect from Disney you really don't have a whole lot going for Disney's on site hotels that don't even have housekeeping for all (I believe that's still the case right that Deluxe gets more frequent housekeeping for Disney?). Disney gives evening EMH to Deluxe resorts now so perhaps that would be like saying Disney's hotels don't perform like they used to because they need to sweeten the pot to increase occupancy on their silly sky high pricing.

The bubble isn't removable and Disney takes full advantage. Uni has to offer a nicer stay because it's the only way they can compete. I think offering a small perk for shelling out $700+ a night at a hotel isn't Disney panicking, check the latest occupancy rates, and i think you'll see that the point you're trying to make doesn't hold water

 

[Smugpugmug]

I don't know about you but generally speaking people seem to be happier overall about how Universal's hotels are run and a lot usually point to that Loews a hotel company is running them.

If you removed this whole "bubble" aspect from Disney you really don't have a whole lot going for Disney's on site hotels that don't even have housekeeping for all (I believe that's still the case right that Deluxe gets more frequent housekeeping for Disney?). Disney gives evening EMH to Deluxe resorts now so perhaps that would be like saying Disney's hotels don't perform like they used to because they need to sweeten the pot to increase occupancy on their silly sky high pricing.

I have never stayed at the hotels that include Express so no comment there but the ones that are comparable to a WDW value competely blow them out of the water. Way more bank for your buck in terms of amenities.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Well, fair enough, but I think it's a bit disingenuous to criticize Disney for an "expensive" line-skipping program, but laud Universal, when their's costs quite a bit more.

I think it's fair to compare value here. At Disney you're paying for what many might consider a decent chunk for one ride through so you're paying to get just one ride through. It's kinda pricey when you look at it for that.

I've always been the whole "they operate differently" because they do, Universal's system operates one way and Disney's another but people are too quick to point out the sum total price but tend to not get nitty gritty into it. Per attraction-wise people would want to do that math on this once and as it fluctuates day to day.

I did the math for a last minute once per through EP for just the Studios today (so a terrible value since it's last minute and already mostly through the day) no park to park with 11 attractions available (as I removed both stations of Hogwarts Express) and the cost per attraction for Universal was $16.46. If you wanted to ride Rise today you'd pay $22 just for that. I'm inclined to say it's never as easy as saying "expensive line skipping" and as easy for someone's rebuttal to be "yeah well Universal's costs a lot more" because there are differences between them.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

The bubble isn't removable and Disney takes full advantage. Uni has to offer a nicer stay because it's the only way they can compete. I think offering a small perk for shelling out $700+ a night at a hotel isn't Disney panicking, check the latest occupancy rates, and i think you'll see that the point you're trying to make doesn't hold water

Does Universal have to offer a nicer stay? What's a nicer stay to someone who only stays at Disney because it's "in the bubble"? Are you actually trying to tell me that Universal who didn't really stop housekeeping just did it because they felt like they needed to? I'm saying Universal operates their hotels more like a normal hotel with offerings more like a normal hotel and people have come to appreciate that.

Adding evening EMH to Deluxe resorts didn't need to be done by Disney irrespective of price until they saw that they needed to. People were willing to spend globs of money without a special perk of evening EMH or the exclusivity of it.

I'm not sure if you were lurking before you joined in 2021 but I've been on since 2015 (and many have been on much much longer than me). People have been complaining ever since I joined about the state of Disney's hotels from the worn down needs a refurb to the outrageous pricing that continues to increase. But many made the comments that it was the bubble that made them deal with that. Just the concept that Universal didn't have it and people turned their nose up on that. Remove that bubble aspect and it's a bit hard to say that Universal's hotels don't perform like Disney when there's very much an artificial reason a good amount of people are choosing Disney.

In addition you can already see how many people in the last several years have moved off site when parking was added to the resorts, when evening EMH was removed from Moderate and Value, then during the pandemic when housekeeping was altered based on what level you were at and even Deluxe couldn't get consistent housekeeping, and now you have where the theming has been toned down on the newer refurbs and newer hotels for Disney and it's also creating less of a reason for people to stay on site. In addition because Disney has all the space in the world they do have vast amounts of hotels however Universal has continued building hotels too. Since 2014 Universal has added 5 new hotels and will be adding more with Epic Universe. Their addition to their hotel portfolio seems to speak to something one would think.

What point do you think I'm trying to make that to you doesn't hold water?

 

[Aluminum Falcon]

I think it's fair to compare value here. At Disney you're paying for what many might consider a decent chunk for one ride through so you're paying to get just one ride through. It's kinda pricey when you look at it for that.

I've always been the whole "they operate differently" because they do, Universal's system operates one way and Disney's another but people are too quick to point out the sum total price but tend to not get nitty gritty into it. Per attraction-wise people would want to do that math on this once and as it fluctuates day to day.

I did the math for a last minute once per through EP for just the Studios today (so a terrible value since it's last minute and already mostly through the day) no park to park with 11 attractions available (as I removed both stations of Hogwarts Express) and the cost per attraction for Universal was $16.46. If you wanted to ride Rise today you'd pay $22 just for that. I'm inclined to say it's never as easy as saying "expensive line skipping" and as easy for someone's rebuttal to be "yeah well Universal's costs a lot more" because there are differences between them.

there are differences, but Disney is still significantly less expensive. Also value is subjective and what one person sees value in, another may not

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

there are differences, but Disney is still significantly less expensive. Also value is subjective and what one person sees value in, another may not

We're all aware value is subjective which is why I did the numbers on that. There isn't a subjective aspect to paying the high total cost for Universal when it breaks down to being less than the most in demand ride at Disney on a day where it isn't even costing at much as it can (I believe Rise can be as high as $25).

But you did make my point about how people don't get into the nitty gritty.

 

[Aluminum Falcon]

Does Universal have to offer a nicer stay? What's a nicer stay to someone who only stays at Disney because it's "in the bubble"? Are you actually trying to tell me that Universal who didn't really stop housekeeping just did it because they felt like they needed to? I'm saying Universal operates their hotels more like a normal hotel with offerings more like a normal hotel and people have come to appreciate that.

Adding evening EMH to Deluxe resorts didn't need to be done by Disney irrespective of price until they saw that they needed to. People were willing to spend globs of money without a special perk of evening EMH or the exclusivity of it.

I'm not sure if you were lurking before you joined in 2021 but I've been on since 2015 (and many have been on much much longer than me). People have been complaining ever since I joined about the state of Disney's hotels from the worn down needs a refurb to the outrageous pricing that continues to increase. But many made the comments that it was the bubble that made them deal with that. Just the concept that Universal didn't have it and people turned their nose up on that. Remove that bubble aspect and it's a bit hard to say that Universal's hotels don't perform like Disney when there's very much an artificial reason a good amount of people are choosing Disney.

In addition you can already see how many people in the last several years have moved off site when parking was added to the resorts, when evening EMH was removed from Moderate and Value, then during the pandemic when housekeeping was altered based on what level you were at and even Deluxe couldn't get consistent housekeeping, and now you have where the theming has been toned down on the newer refurbs and newer hotels for Disney and it's also creating less of a reason for people to stay on site. In addition because Disney has all the space in the world they do have vast amounts of hotels however Universal has continued building hotels too. Since 2014 Universal has added 5 new hotels and will be adding more with Epic Universe. Their addition to their hotel portfolio seems to speak to something one would think.

What point do you think I'm trying to make that to you doesn't hold water?

They still don't perform like Disney, we can hypothesize about what it would be like if there was no bubble, but that is pointless, as there is a bubble that seems to add enough value for a lot of people to cover up the blemishes Disney has. Dismissing that is irresponsible.

Yes i do believe that hotels working in a hyper competitive environment need to add to their offering to set them up for success. Disney doesn't seem to be as subjected to this as Uni, the Disney bubble takes care of itself, Uni is competing with Disney and every other hotel in the area. Like it or not it is different

You really need to see Disneys occupancy rates, you seem to be grandstanding, and projecting

 

[Aluminum Falcon]

We're all aware value is subjective which is why I did the numbers on that. There isn't a subjective aspect to paying the high total cost for Universal when it breaks down to being less than the most in demand ride at Disney on a day where it isn't even costing at much as it can (I believe Rise can be as high as $25).

But you did make my point about how people don't get into the nitty gritty.

Unless you find more value in what Disney has to offer in terms of rides, shows, ect.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

They still don't perform like Disney, we can hypothesize about what it would be like if there was no bubble, but that is pointless, as there is a bubble that seems to add enough value for a lot of people to cover up the blemishes Disney has. Dismissing that is irresponsible.

You really need to see Disneys occupancy rates, you seem to be grandstanding, and projecting

Ahhh you seem to think I'm debating something that which I'm not...that explains it. Just because Disney retains ownership of land at the moment creating a bubble doesn't mean it's pointless to discuss that with respects to their hotels. It's tied to the very reason many on this Board for example even book a Disney hotel. I'm not debating why people do it, I'm very aware why, but if your point is to discuss that Disney performs better on the hotel front than Universal it would seem part of the conversation as to why which includes people booking merely because it's on Disney's property and if such removal of that bubble were to occur you'd see less outperforming there. The fact that Universal has seen fit to build 5 new hotels in less than 10 years reflects they saw their current ones outgrow their consumer base in rooms they could provide in addition to capturing that Value customer with Endless Summer. To me that lends itself to recognizing performance on Universal's level.

Well hotel occupancy has been down for Disney recently and that's been talked about quite a lot between room deals, dining plan being back, bounce back offers etc.

Let's not try to insult people by calling names. I assure you I'm not one to be grandstanding much less projecting. And I'd rather have a good faith discussion TBH.

Unless you find more value in what Disney has to offer in terms of rides, shows, ect.

Value is subjective as you just advised me. Whether someone values spending $22 on Rise or not is up to them but the comment I was making to another poster was about cost. Majority of people point to EP and say "that's really expensive how can you compare to Disney's system" but that's where it stops.

In any case respectfully moving on with the discussion between you and I

 

[Brian Noble]

I don't know about you but generally speaking people seem to be happier overall about how Universal's hotels are run and a lot usually point to that Loews a hotel company is running them.

If you removed this whole "bubble" aspect from Disney you really don't have a whole lot going for Disney's on site hotels

Absolutely true. Disney is distinctly average as a hotelier. Hotels are not Disney's core business--even in the Parks and Experiences segment. Viewed strictly as hotels, they are a notch or two below a better business-class brand (e.g. Westin) but above the leisure midscale brands of e.g. Holiday Inn.

Many people point to Disney's "service." In my experience they are very good at smiling and doing routine things mostly correctly, but as soon as you have to go off-script, things can get difficult in a hurry. The person checking me in at the Westin might not put on the saccharine smile, but if something is wrong with the room or the reservation it gets fixed and fixed quickly.

And that's without even considering what a truly service-oriented property can do. I had a taxi drop me off at the Four Seasons in DC, where the bellman opened the door and welcomed me by name. To this day, I am not entirely sure how he did it.

Lowes, on the other hand, is a hotel company*. That's what they do. Perhaps more importantly they are an upscale brand, so their "value" properties look more like the better ones than the other way around.

----------
Technically, the hotel business is part of a larger conglomerate, but it is structured as a subsidiary, not a unit within a larger corporate structure.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I have never stayed at the hotels that include Express so no comment there but the ones that are comparable to a WDW value competely blow them out of the water. Way more bank for your buck in terms of amenities.

I think Universal was quite smart to go after that very Value customer and was a bit surprised they didn't have that before for their lowest level of Endless Summer. What they did tend to have that was vary hard to get at Disney was more options for larger groups or adults only trips.

Disney with their more recent refurbs seem to be trying to adjust what their prior consumer base was. I didn't mind our All-Star Sports stay in 2017 but can say that the new refurb for the All-Stars would have been much better for us with that murphy bed we could put up. But I really liked the grab and go options for Endless Summer Surfside and their bus service amazing. And I think Universal had the advantage here of coming in later on and being able to use what more current consumer wants and needs were whereas Disney had already had so many existing hotels they were sorta stuck in the past, I think that's why you're seeing more recent DVC buildings and newer refurbs be toned down.

 

[Aluminum Falcon]

Ahhh you seem to think I'm debating something that which I'm not...that explains it. Just because Disney retains ownership of land at the moment creating a bubble doesn't mean it's pointless to discuss that with respects to their hotels. It's tied to the very reason many on this Board for example even book a Disney hotel. I'm not debating why people do it, I'm very aware why, but if your point is to discuss that Disney performs better on the hotel front than Universal it would seem part of the conversation as to why which includes people booking merely because it's on Disney's property and if such removal of that bubble were to occur you'd see less outperforming there. The fact that Universal has seen fit to build 5 new hotels in less than 10 years reflects they saw their current ones outgrow their consumer base in rooms they could provide in addition to capturing that Value customer with Endless Summer. To me that lends itself to recognizing performance on Universal's level.

Well hotel occupancy has been down for Disney recently and that's been talked about quite a lot between room deals, dining plan being back, bounce back offers etc.

Let's not try to insult people by calling names. I assure you I'm not one to be grandstanding much less projecting. And I'd rather have a good faith discussion TBH.


Value is subjective as you just advised me. Whether someone values spending $22 on Rise or not is up to them but the comment I was making to another poster was about cost. Majority of people point to EP and say "that's really expensive how can you compare to Disney's system" but that's where it stops.

In any case respectfully moving on with the discussion between you and I

I think we're going in circles, you are bringing up a lot of hypotheticals to drive your point home, and i can't operate in that realm because it is at its core a guess based on what you believe, not at all in fact. You could be correct, the point is we'll never actually know.

The point i was attempting to make about value is that people view it differently so, maybe you see more value in Uni for what you get at the price, maybe someone sees more value in Dis offering. You may be able to get more out of Unis, the only point i'm making is that it is a significantly more expensive product

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Absolutely true. Disney is distinctly average as a hotelier. Hotels are not Disney's core business--even in the Parks and Experiences segment. Viewed strictly as hotels, they are a notch or two below a better business-class brand (e.g. Westin) but above the leisure midscale brands of e.g. Holiday Inn.

Many people point to Disney's "service." In my experience they are very good at smiling and doing routine things mostly correctly, but as soon as you have to go off-script, things can get difficult in a hurry. The person checking me in at the Westin might not put on the saccharine smile, but if something is wrong with the room or the reservation it gets fixed and fixed quickly.

And that's without even considering what a truly service-oriented property can do. I had a taxi drop me off at the Four Seasons in DC, where the bellman opened the door and welcomed me by name. To this day, I am not entirely sure how he did it.

Lowes, on the other hand, is a hotel company*. That's what they do. Perhaps more importantly they are an upscale brand, so their "value" properties look more like the better ones than the other way around.

----------
Technically, the hotel business is part of a larger conglomerate, but it is structured as a subsidiary, not a unit within a larger corporate structure.

Completely agree and it makes sense. You walk in and there's more familiarity and expectations? I guess might be the way to describe it because it reads like a more traditional hotel experience. Over time people get expectations about Disney's hotels once they stay enough times and I agree people do point to service. I want to say Disney was amazing during Hurricane Irma while we were there although I know from watching in real time they were not as good during Hurricane Matthew the year prior and seemed to adjust things for Irma (namely the food options and pricing) and it looks like they improved even more for the more recent one (was that Ian?? can't remember).

We put up our DND sign when we stayed at Endless Summer Surfside and got a text from Universal saying they saw the sign but if we needed anything to let them know. This was last May. Was quite surprised at that. I'm not saying every single person gets that consistently (meaning the text) but over at Disney you're getting the security check rants from people with insistent knocking or housekeeping asking when you're leaving and I'm not trying to bring the security checks into the mix just to give this juxtaposition of experiences and housekeeping is hit or miss more often in terms of frequency.

 

[Smugpugmug]

I think Universal was quite smart to go after that very Value customer and was a bit surprised they didn't have that before for their lowest level of Endless Summer. What they did tend to have that was vary hard to get at Disney was more options for larger groups or adults only trips.

Disney with their more recent refurbs seem to be trying to adjust what their prior consumer base was. I didn't mind our All-Star Sports stay in 2017 but can say that the new refurb for the All-Stars would have been much better for us with that murphy bed we could put up. But I really liked the grab and go options for Endless Summer Surfside and their bus service amazing. And I think Universal had the advantage here of coming in later on and being able to use what more current consumer wants and needs were whereas Disney had already had so many existing hotels they were sorta stuck in the past, I think that's why you're seeing more recent DVC buildings and newer refurbs be toned down.

The AP discounts I've seen for Endless Summer are nuts. I saw $79 at one point. You can't pay $79 for any hotel at WDW. The All Stars are like, $170-90.

I recently stayed at Pop Century and comparing to Cabana Bay (similar price point), Cabana Bay was the better resort. Rooms at Pop were nicer but everything else at CB was better.

Ugh don't even get me started on those resort/room refurbs...the Contemporary one sends me into a blind animal rage.

 

[theSurlyMermaid]

To me the consumer. I paid for a great resort room with portofino and didn’t have to shell out a dime for Express. Don’t try and tell me Disney’s rooms that are comparable to portofino cost less. I know they don’t.

At Disney I spent 109 dollars per ticket. Then 88 for ROR. Then 88 more for genie plus so I could get on other things. One of which broke down for several hours out of the day.

There is no way that is any kind of value for a day at Hollywood studios. And if you don’t do it, god help you as you stand in lines all day.

As for ROR, if Velocicoaster is “just a roller coaster”, ROR is just a golf cart moving from room to room with some effects and animatronics. A few screens. If you love the new Star Wars, great. My kid doesn’t and couldn’t have cared less. She’s looking for adrenaline thrills and there are none provided on that ride which is really more of a show/ride.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

The AP discounts I've seen for Endless Summer are nuts. I saw $79 at one point. You can't pay $79 for any hotel at WDW. The All Stars are like, $170-90.

I recently stayed at Pop Century and comparing to Cabana Bay (similar price point), Cabana Bay was the better resort. Rooms at Pop were nicer but everything else at CB was better.

Ugh don't even get me started on those resort/room refurbs...the Contemporary one sends me into a blind animal rage.

agree

Your blind animal rage has me in stitches

 

[Brian Noble]

I want to say Disney was amazing during Hurricane Irma

This is a good example of what I am getting at.

If there is a predefined script for it, Disney knows what to do. And, hurricane response is something they've learned how to do. They have a playbook for it. That playbook allows them to tell the front-line staff how to execute, and it mostly happens. And to their credit, they have a BIG playbook.

But, true service is what happens when there isn't a play in the playbook for the situation. Disney front line employees are not very good at dealing with those situations.

There's also the level of service. Even at the Disney deluxes, the idea of chair-side pool service is mostly absent. They have tried it from time to time, but it rarely lasts. The best you can usually do is e.g. SSR where they give you a numbered flag when you order at the window, and they will bring it to you.

Lowes, on the other hand, gets this. There are servers roaming the pool area at at least the three top-level resorts checking to see if anyone needs anything. This is pretty ordinary at better resort-class places, but not at WDW.

 

[BrianL]

To me the consumer. I paid for a great resort room with portofino and didn’t have to shell out a dime for Express. Don’t try and tell me Disney’s rooms that are comparable to portofino cost less. I know they don’t.

At Disney I spent 109 dollars per ticket. Then 88 for ROR. Then 88 more for genie plus so I could get on other things. One of which broke down for several hours out of the day.

There is no way that is any kind of value for a day at Hollywood studios. And if you don’t do it, god help you as you stand in lines all day.

As for ROR, if Velocicoaster is “just a roller coaster”, ROR is just a golf cart moving from room to room with some effects and animatronics. A few screens. If you love the new Star Wars, great. My kid doesn’t and couldn’t have cared less. She’s looking for adrenaline thrills and there are none provided on that ride which is really more of a show/ride.

You're right - Disney attractions are more about the show - they generally always have been. If one wants thrill-rides then other parks do cater to that more, including Universal. Persoanlly, I'm happy with moderately thrilling rides and more intense show/theming, and I think Disney does that better than anyone. I can do Universal, but my spine doesn't love me afterward.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

As for ROR, if Velocicoaster is “just a roller coaster”, ROR is just a golf cart moving from room to room with some effects and animatronics. A few screens. If you love the new Star Wars, great. My kid doesn’t and couldn’t have cared less. She’s looking for adrenaline thrills and there are none provided on that ride which is really more of a show/ride.

My husband is all about the thrills (me not so much lol) and his favorite ride is VelociCoaster followed close by with Guardians. Hulk used to be his favorite ride. We both however were meh about Rise and thought while technologically advanced not something we're clamoring to go on again much less pay for. That's not to knock people's love of Rise though I am inclined to agree with you about it being more a show and a ride. It's more my pace of what attraction I can do but even I was underwhelmed for the majority of it. But hey that just means we don't have to spend the money for it nor wait for it. Guardians on the other hand my husband said he'd pay for that one (we went during the Previews and he got to ride it twice).

When I look at attractions I think you can have a ride that has amazing theming but lackluster in what it actually is. Then you can have a ride that is so so or next to nil on theming but is awesome in what it actually is. It's harder to get both on the same ride. For some Rise falls into that category but it doesn't for us. On the other hand I think Hagrid's combines both. FOP combines both (but is already in desperate need of realignment in the effects and that impacts the experience today).

I missed the "just a roller coaster" comment before and had to look it up. It's certainly not just a roller coaster and my husband also rode it before it was included in EP (like the other poster who made the comment). I'm not even sure how anyone can champion DHS right now as almost everyone can agree that park is problematic on various levels. My local to WDW DISers love to let us know how it is for them.