WDW and DL Pirates to change Redhead scene

[SureAsLiz]

I truly respect your opinion on the matter and can def tell it is near and dear to you but I will say there are so many things in life that one can perceive to be along the lines of what you are thinking.

Probably one of the examples I can think of is people where shirts for their State where that state happened to support slavery for example. So just in my area you've got KS and MO. A person who wears a KS shirt isn't necessarily stating "no slavery" and a person who is wearing a MO shirt isn't necessarily stating "yes slavery". You can make that case of course but it's doubtful that it's their intent to be perceived that way and that's saying a lot considering the past KS and MO has had.

You can make a case for wearing the t-shirt of the Pirates attraction but it's doubtful their intent is to be perceived in the way you have presented.

The accurate comparison would be wearing a shirt with the confederate flag.

Kansas and Missouri are more than the sums of their historical stances on slavery. Especially since someone wearing a shirt today would be living in a version of the state in which legalized slavery does not exist.
But wearing a confederate flag? That's a pretty obvious symbol, and anyone wearing it has either not thought of the implications or chosen to ignore it.

When wearing a general pirates shirt, they are probably thinking of the attraction as a whole. But a Red Head shirt has no other implication than this single scene.

 

[Roxyfire]

Because selling human beings as property is not okay.
It's not that both can be bad. It's that human trafficking is bad. That's it.

Yeah out of all the scenes, I agree its one of the most questionable ones. Others are dark (village on fire, man being tortured, etc) others are sad (the drunks passed out), but that one bothers me a little more than the others. I'm gonna bet this one was on someone's list to get changed for a while now, and we're in a place where it needs to happen.

 

[LYSE]

The accurate comparison would be wearing a shirt with the confederate flag.

Kansas and Missouri are more than the sums of their historical stances on slavery. Especially since someone wearing a shirt today would be living in a version of the state in which legalized slavery does not exist.
But wearing a confederate flag? That's a pretty obvious symbol, and anyone wearing it has either not thought of the implications or chosen to ignore it.

When wearing a general pirates shirt, they are probably thinking of the attraction as a whole. But a Red Head shirt has no other implication than this single scene.

The symbol of the confedrate can also represent state rights. it really depends on the audience looking at it.

 

[SureAsLiz]

The symbol of the confedrate can also represent state rights. it really depends on the audience looking at it.

For fear of this going political. Im going to state that this kind of thinking is what is mean when I say that "anyone wearing it has either not thought of the implications or chosen to ignore it" and leave it at that.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

The accurate comparison would be wearing a shirt with the confederate flag.

Kansas and Missouri are more than the sums of their historical stances on slavery. Especially since someone wearing a shirt today would be living in a version of the state in which legalized slavery does not exist.
But wearing a confederate flag? That's a pretty obvious symbol, and anyone wearing it has either not thought of the implications or chosen to ignore it.

When wearing a general pirates shirt, they are probably thinking of the attraction as a whole. But a Red Head shirt has no other implication than this single scene.

Eh..perhaps in your opinion but with all due respect I don't agree.

Maybe living here you might understand more of what I'm saying especially living on the border between the two states. And the thing with the confederate flag is there isn't a universal opinion on the meaning behind it. It would be unfair to press upon someone that the only meaning behind something that hasn't a clear meaning is what you believe it to mean. That is why the confederate flag isn't an accurate comparison.

 

[SureAsLiz]

Maybe living here you might understand more of what I'm saying especially living on the border between the two states.

I don't have the geographic understanding, your right. I'm pulling from my experiences living in Colorado most of my life, living in NE Oklahoma for 3 years right near the KS border, and having close family (parents and siblings) who were either raised in and/or currently live in Kansas and Missouri. SO while I do have connections to the area, I'm not a local and can't pretend to understand.

If there is more to be understood, I am happy to learn.

But if there is someone who is wearing a Missouri shirt in support of slavery, then at that point they've explicitly thought through their actions and are making a choice.
I would say that the state of Missouri is far to wide a subject to be able to attribute malice to though. In the same vein, I'm deeply prideful of Colorado and where I come from, but wearing a CO shirt doesn't mean I support the Sand Creek Massacre, and I would hope no one would ever think to make that connection. But if someone came to me and stated that they truely believed that CO was a representation of what happened there, I would take a step back and seriously consider if that was a potential image I wanted to project about myself

 

[LYSE]

For fear of this going political. Im going to state that this kind of thinking is what is mean when I say that "anyone wearing it has either not thought of the implications or chosen to ignore it" and leave it at that.

Symbols can have an unlimited amount of meaning to the people viewing them. To make a gross over generalization like that is damaging and unfair. Especially since my family had people fighting on both sides of the civil war. I do not, nor will I ever wear of fly a confederate flag, but I will not try to tell other people that they dont have the right or make assumptions at to why they are wearing it.

 

[merry_nbright]

"Strike your colors, you brazen wench! No need to expose your super structure."

I will surely miss that part of the ride, but I am looking forward to what's being put in!

I'm glad they're not touching my pirate spirit animal, the drunk one offering kitties a bit of rum.

 

[rteetz]

Here's the thing though, as you admit booze and guns aren't equivalent to having a person as a slave. And more importantly, the slavery of our past isn't what this part of the ride is referencing. This part of the ride is making light of human trafficking and having women as sex slaves. Something that is very real and very prominent today.

I wouldn't have asked for the change, but I won't mourn the change. It is sad that part of Walt's contribution is gone, but, if not for him there would be none of it. As long as there is Mickey, there is Walt.

I agree. I just think there is so much that could be considered politically incorrect that is removing this one piece going to solve those problems? I don't think so.

Right, and neither are the natives in The Jungle Cruise, all the murders in the story of the Haunted Mansion, or about 40% of the lyrics in the Country Bears

Question is - do we change everything or can we pick some that are especially wrong or can be conveyed about tacitly approving something/less clear that it is fake/for goofs?

Agreed, and I absolutely love CBJ, it is a must do for me.

Accepted and okay are two different things. Slavery was accepted, but that didn't make it okay.

You can't be both ahead of the curve and accepted by society. That's not how it works. And the thing about coded racism is that it slips under the radar. It's not supposed to be obvious, otherwise it would clearly be Not Okay. A racist movie isn't less racist just because of when it came out.

Disney may have been ahead on technology, but not their themes

I brought up Princess and the Frog (2009)
Tangled (2010) takes place in an imaginary kingdom that's completely white excepting maybe two of the ruffians who are unnamed and have no lines
Elena (2017) is a Hispanic princess, as if all Hispanic or Latin cultures can be grouped into a single characterization. (and lets not forget the fact that they tried to pass off Sofia as being Hispanic)
There is still no major character on the LGBT+ spectrum. We kind of got LeFou in BATB, but that was what, a 1 second interaction? And there's also this history of coding villains as on the spectrum.
Quasimodo is the only major character I can think of presented with any sort of disability, and how much can you find with him in merchandise?

I never said it was okay. This ride is set in a time when things like that were accepted. Today it is obviously not. Theme parks have a theme and this scene fits the pirates theme. We will have to agree to disagree I think Disney has done a great job showcasing strong female characters and such. It isn't just Disney either plenty of other companies have done and gone through the same thing. In the past these things were accepted, today they aren't. My main point is we shouldn't just erase everything about it. We should learn from it and teach our children to not do this in the future.

Because selling human beings as property is not okay.
It's not that both can be bad. It's that human trafficking is bad. That's it.

I never said it was okay.

 

[newestkg06]

Any idea of when in 2018 the refurb will happen? We missed POTC last time and my son was upset. It's a big part of our plans next time. Really hoping it will be up in August of 2018.

 

[rteetz]

Any idea of when the refurb will happen?

2018. No idea when. I wonder if this is why Splash was moved to this fall which would mean this happens early 2018.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I don't have the geographic understanding, your right. I'm pulling from my experiences living in Colorado most of my life, living in NE Oklahoma for 3 years right near the KS border, and having close family (parents and siblings) who were either raised in and/or currently live in Kansas and Missouri.

If there is more to be understood, I am happy to learn.

But if there is someone who is wearing a Missouri shirt in support of slavery, then at that point they've explicitly thought through their actions and are making a choice.
I would say that the state of Missouri is far to wide a subject to be able to attribute malice to though. In the same vein, I'm deeply prideful of Colorado and where I come from, but wearing a CO shirt doesn't mean I support the Sand Creek Massacre, and I would hope no one would ever think to make that connection. But if someone came to me and stated that they truely believed that CO was a representation of what happened there, I would take a step back and seriously consider if that was a potential image I wanted to project about myself

Perhaps the misunderstanding here is that I wasn't saying that someone who wears a Missouri shirt is in support of slavery but that it's doubtful that is their intent to be perceived that way and this was in relation to you sounded pretty certain that someone who is wearing the redhead scene shirt is in support of women=property.

And as far as KS/MO being right as the border is different than being on the western or southern part of KS. Probably moreso in the KC metro where we are very close to Lawrence where Bleeding KS occurred (I actually went to college in Lawrence) or where you had the border war showdown between KU and Mizzou (it was called Border War for a reason and actually goes back to Bleeding KS events) though since Mizzou left the conference that game no longer occurs. There's a lot of love here in the KC metro on both sides of the state line but it doesn't mean it's all completley erased in education the tormoil between the two areas. But still that brings it back to my earlier example. Just because someone wears a shirt for KS doesn't mean their intent is to be perceived as against slavery and just because someone wears a shrit for MO doesn't mean their intent is to be perceived as pro slavery.

Honestly though it's like you're picking and choosing what someone can be perceived as. Someone wearing a confederate flag means they are pro slavery but someone who wears a CO shirt could be supporting the Sand Creek Massacre if only they knew about it and someone pointed it out.....or they could just being wearing a confederate flag for another reson or a CO shirt for just liking the State. Someone wearing a shirt with a reference to the redhead scene may be in support of women=property or they may just wear the shirt because for lack of a better description. That was more my main point in bringing up wearing a state shirt as an example.

Again I do respect your opinion I just don't agree with everything about it.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

2018. No idea when. I wonder if this is why Splash was moved to this fall which would mean this happens early 2018.

Ok ok I know I sound like a broken record on a bitter streak here with the Splash refurb but a small part of me would like to know why the refurb is happening at that time and you bring up a good thought on it and the timeline with Pirates..

 

[Planogirl]

One part of this that troubles me is that so much has to be changed nowadays because someone is offended. I generally just avoid things that I find distasteful and can't wrap my mind around telling people that they have to think like me.

 

[merry_nbright]

Holy macaroni, I didn't know this was such a heated topic! It's a scene in a ride.. I don't understand the huge uproar about it right now. I mean, haunted houses show murder and things that are MUCH worse than that scene. I understand why they're changing it, but I don't get the hatred for the scene. I mean, the haunted mansion has someone dangling from the ceiling and there's no uproar about that. It's an amusement park. It's fantasty. Just my two cents.

Now, onto happier and hopeful posts! By the way, the old scene will forever be on YouTube!

 

[MamaBelle4]

I agree. I just think there is so much that could be considered politically incorrect that is removing this one piece going to solve those problems? I don't think so.

I don't know how to word this properly, so forgive my convoluted answer. It isn't so much "politically incorrect" to me. It is more "globally inappropriate". There is too much fear and real life implications for many in regards to human trafficking. It doesn't affect one race or nationality. It is global. I don't know if I'm making sense or not.

And I think, as time goes on, more things from classic Disney rides and attractions will slowly disappear. I think, as we progress as a society, things that were once acceptable will be erased from entertainment venues, though hopefully not diluted in our history books. Like, "Who Made the Red Man Red?" from Peter Pan. Wildly racist by today's standards and, IMHO, doesn't have a place in Disney World any more, but that doesn't mean we should minimize the relations between the US and Native Americans and the discrimination they faced for centuries.

 

[superme80]

So not happy about this. If you don't like it, don't go on it. No need to change it!

 

[wilkeliza]

Ok so everyone is assuming this is because of "PC police". Do people not realized that hey Disney is deciding to make an old ride fresh by changing a few scenes? We all sit on here and complain Disney doesn't do enough and then when they announce a change people go crazy over it. It is like they can't win.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

This is a sad day. Disneyland's pirates was something Walt was heavily involved in and taking out a key scene is just sad IMO.

No one named "disney" has been around for quite sometime...

...you should have been tipped off when the terms "premium" and "luxury" started getting floated to describe rooms at the Poly.

 

[rteetz]

Ok so eveyone is assumi this is because of "PC police". Do people not realized that hey Disney is deciding to make an old ride fresh by changing a few scenes? We all sit on here and complain Disney doesn't do enough and then when they announce a change people go crazy over it. It is like they can't win.

I think this is more the if it ain't broke don't fix it. There are plenty of other rides and attractions I would like them to change/remove/fix/etc. before pirates.