Was this Walts secret to success?

[monkeysrule85]

Hi whats up?

 

[bicker]

Barring any real strong evidence to the contrary, I'll believe that the professionals actually do know their jobs better than we do.

Now that is one of the funniest things I've read in quite some time.
I imagine then that the shareholders of Enron, MCI, Global Crossings, etc are pleased with the way the professionals have managed those companies?

Why choose only those companies? If you were being honest, you'd admit that unless there is evidence to the contrary, it is more likely that professional managers do make business decisions better than random online personalities like us. A few bad managers don't make a dent in the reputations of the managers of tens of thousands of other companies.

Folks online have been supporting self-serving arguments against this company or that company, by using extreme anecdotes to defend their assertion instead of actual factual information, practically since the Internet was invented. The vast majority of hard evidence, considering all companies rather than just a chosen few, indicates clearly that such assertions have no merit. They're typically expressions of frustration -- frustration that companies are managed for the benefit of their owners not their customers. Customers hate that they don't get to control both sides of the transaction, what gets offered and whether to purchase, and so some react with baseless accusations. Many people go beyond that frustration, though, and show a distinct lack of respect for anyone who they don't have to look in the eye, so they'll carelessly cast reckless aspersions on a whole class of humans, generally folks who are doing a great job but a job which, for one reason or another, doesn't specifically benefit the accuser. Sad.

Disney has grown far beyond it's beginnings. But lately that growth has crushed the very creative roots that nourish the entire enterprise - even we amateurs can see that - the only question is how much damage has been sustained and is it recoverable.

Yeah, yeah. I've read the same thing for over 20 years, ever since the first pronouncements of doom-and-gloom were made on USENET's net.disney. The reality is that Disney remains among the best in the industry, as it always has been. Perhaps all that has changed is society, as it does seem to me that more and more people are more and more cynical, more ready to criticize, more inclined to show less and less respect for others.

Oh no, we should blindly trust the leaders of industry.

Much more readily than some random YoHos on the Internet!

 

[Another Voice]

"I've read the same thing for over 20 years, ever since the first pronouncements of doom-and-gloom were made on USENET's net.disney."

Feature Animation closed and gutted.
The computer revolution in animation abandoned, only to be overtaken by competitors
Billions and billions overpaid for an unwatched cable television network.
A broadcast network that's barely been able to climb from fourth to third (for a single season).
A retail chain that collapsed to half its former size before it was given away.
A theme park within a hundred yards of Disneyland that can't get anyone to buy a ticket.
Hundreds of millions of dollars paid out to former executives through lost court cases.
Guests injured and killed because of poor maintenance.

You're right. Those predictions starting 20 years were wrong. There turned out to be way, way too gentle compared to what's actually happened.

I pity you if you think this is good management for I can not even imagine the horrors that would have to happen for you to see anything wrong.

 

[manning]

Didn't the result of GOOD Disney management cause Comcast to take a look at Disney a make a bid for it.

HMMMMMMMM!!

 

[bicker]

I pity you if you think this is good management for I can not even imagine the horrors that would have to happen for you to see anything wrong.

I pity you that you are so depressed by normal events in the passage of time. Your ideal vision of management would have as likely as not resulted in bankruptcy, and a parceling up of the assets of the corporation to the higest bidder. Reality prevails, not idealism.

Though, if you'd have been happy with Viacom Epcot Park, or Mickey Mouse selling socks for Wal-Mart, or the Disney Corp under Barry Diller, then perhaps your depression is justified.

 

[airlarry!]

Oh, you must never have been to:

Disney-MGM Studios;
The Disney Stores presented by The Children's Palace; and
The Walt Disney Company, run by Robert Iger--who is neither a storyteller, artist, imagineer, filmmaker, or dreamer.

How are any of the three really different from Viacom, Wal-Mart, or Barry Diller? The corporate buy-out actually came from within not from without.

 

[Another Voice]

So everything on my list – from abandoning feature animation to state sanctions for criminally maintained roller coasters – are "normal events that occur over the passage of time"?

It's going to surprise you, but I think I'll agree with you. We have seen the normal course of events over time…

So when Disney continued to produce cookie cutter animated musicals more interested in plugging happy meals than being a good movie – the REAL normal events that occur over the course of time is that people stopped showing up.

So when Disney continued to push only the unchanging high margin merchandise in the Stores while getting Mickey Mouse to hock socks at WalMart – the REAL normal course of events happened and people shopped elsewhere.

So when Disney opened up a park that made the PowerPoint presentations sizzle at the expense of all the elements that made a "Disney park" – the REAL normal course of events happened and people stayed away.

So when Disney management continued to run the company for personal gain and ignored any semblance of caring for the stockholders, its employees and the long term prospects for Disney – the REAL normal course of events happened and management receive a historic rejection from the stockholders and the business community (only to be followed by an unprecedented display of arrogance and greed, but that's another story).


After such a contentious thread it's really "magical" that you now seem to agree with many here that the natural course of events resulted in the death of Disney's core businesses.

Reality prevails after all – just ask all the thousands of former Disney Store cast members, animators and Imaginers about it.

 

[bicker]

So everything on my list – from abandoning feature animation to state sanctions for criminally maintained roller coasters – are "normal events that occur over the passage of time"?

Your characterization is your personal view of the situation prompted by your personal perspective. I don't agree with your biased view. I believe it is promped by frustration or disapointment, but I do respect your right to be upset that your personal preferences aren't dictating corporate policy. I believe that the folks who have managed Disney have managed the company far far better than you would have. Let's leave it at that.

 

[All Aboard]

I believe that the folks who have managed Disney have managed the company far far better than you would have.

So should I infer that "better than your average web discussion board poster" is your yardstick for effective management?

 

[bicker]

No. You should infer from what I write only what I imply. It's really just a matter of respect. I'm respectful in my replies, despite the preposturous inquiries you and Another Voice directed at me. I hope it isn't unreasonable for me to expect the same level of respect in return. Thanks!

 

[Bstanley]

Bicker.

Let me see if I understand - my pointing out the most recent/egregious cases of corporate mismanagement as a response to your claim that 'corporate managers know better than we' ignores the many cases where corporate managers made excellent decisions (Well - speaking as a corporate manager I appreciate the support).

That is a true statement - albeit irrelevant to the discussion...

The point is - every decision by every manager cannot be considered to automatically be a good one if it has been demonstrated that bad ones have in FACT been made by some corporate managers. By illustrating that I logically negated your contention that 'corporate managers know better than we'. The fact is, in some cases, corporate managers DO NOT know better than we.

So now all we need to do is decide whether Disney corporate management has made poor decisions that negatively impacted it's creative roots.

Duh.

I do not need to go through an entire laundry list of recent poor Disney Inc decisions, most were already identified by others (although I am somewhat surprised that nobody pointed out that Disney overpaid by about 75% for Fox Family).

A single decision - the virtual extermination of Feature Animation - the very HEART of Disney illustrates that point as clearly as the noon-day sun.

The fastest way to guarantee a COMCAST sign over the door to the Magic Kingdom is to continue to blindly follow along if bad decisions continue to be made.

 

[bicker]

my pointing out the most recent/egregious cases of corporate mismanagement as a response to your claim that 'corporate managers know better than we' ignores the many cases where corporate managers made excellent decisions. That is a true statement - albeit irrelevant to the discussion...

Not at all. It is precisely the point: A few anecdotes don't constitute the entirety of reality.

You're welcome to disagree, and if so, we'll just have to agree to disagree about it.

The point is - every decision by every manager cannot be considered to automatically be a good one

Of course. Who ever suggested something that silly? (And that was my point in my last message: Intellectual integrity demands that folks reply to what each other write -- not make arguments against things the other person hasn't actually asserted.)

By illustrating that I logically negated your contention that 'corporate managers know better than we'.

Not in the slightest. You negated the assertion, 'every decision made by a corporate manager is the best decision possible." That's nothing near what I wrote -- at best, it is an extreme distortion of what I wrote. It's intellectual dishonesty, and I don't sit back meekly and accept it from anyone. Sorry about that.

The fact is, in some cases, corporate managers DO NOT know better than we.

Actually, that's a completely different issue, and more incorrect that I bet you're willing to admit. The best you can hope to prove is that sometimes "we" get lucky and advocate something counter to what best practice, best knowledge, and best data indicates, that happens, as a matter of chance, ends up the best approach in a certain circumstance. No offense, but only unbridaled arrogance would underwrite such disrespect for an entire class of professionals just doing their jobs.

 

[Another Voice]

None of the issues I directed your way are the slightest bit preposterous. Sadly for everyone involved, there are very much fact.

I'm just curious as how you can defend the ruination of the core of the company, Feature Animation, as "business as usual"?. At what point does the collapse of the Disney Stores become a matter of poor management and not another "that's how things go". How many additional hours does Michael Eisner need to spend in a court room loosing cases brought about by his schemes before he fails he looses "respect".

You said that you've been hearing tales of doom and gloom for twenty years. Even you must admit that things have turned out worse than even the most dire predictions back then. Yet you still demand unquestioning loyalty to the same group that brought Disney to its present state.

The thing is, respect has to be earned. It is not a corporate issued perk like the corner office or the keys to executive bathroom. The public requires a management to work for its business, not simply hand it over. You can demand we all bow to the fourth floor of Team Burbank Disney every sundown, but the public feel no obligation to go to the movies, to shop in the stores or to visit the theme parks.

Disney will only regain its respect when it once again creates a high level of production again.


P.S. -

"No offense, but only unbridaled arrogance would underwrite such disrespect for an entire class of professionals just doing their jobs."

Well, that entire class of professional is doing a really rotten job. They deserve to be fired inaddition to be disrepected.

 

[bicker]

None of the issues I directed your way are the slightest bit preposterous.

You misunderstood what I wrote: Your interpretation of what I had written was completely preposterous.

I'm just curious as how you can defend the ruination of the core of the company, Feature Animation, as "business as usual"?

More loaded language. Could we please try to have a discussion, instead of you throwing words at me?

To try to address what I think you were trying to say, I'm not defending anything: I'm objecting to what I see as emotionally-driven criticism of a whole class of professionals. More specifically, I'm objecting to the twisting of disappointment (that what is best for a business is not necessarily what's best for customers) into a pronouncement of poor management. Disney has and does make mistakes -- but remarkably (or perhaps not), you haven't mentioned the big ones they've made.

At what point does the collapse of the Disney Stores become a matter of poor management

The biggest mistake Disney made with the Disney Stores was probably dragging their feet in reacting to the collapse of the boutique logoware market. I'm not sure, but perhaps Disney should have closed the stores, like WB did, but if not, then perhaps they should have made the changes they eventually made earlier.

How many additional hours does Michael Eisner need to spend in a court room loosing cases brought about by his schemes before he fails he looses "respect".

Actually, Disney won most of the cases brought against them. Major corporations are always the target of numerous lawsuits... a sad statement that is more an indictment of our society than of any one company.

You said that you've been hearing tales of doom and gloom for twenty years. Even you must admit that things have turned out worse than even the most dire predictions back then.

Disney is still in business, and is actually #2 in the industry. Considering that I believe that if they kowtowed to what you would have had them do they would be out of business by now, instead, I'd say they're doing quite well by comparison.

Yet you still demand unquestioning loyalty to the same group that brought Disney to its present state.

Loyalty? Did I say anything about loyalty in this thread? Perhaps you can remind me of what I said about loyalty.

The thing is, respect has to be earned.

And it has been, your decision to refusal to acknowledge that notwithstanding.

Disney will only regain its respect when it once again creates a high level of production again.

Speak for yourself. That's really one of the things I've objected to: Twisting your personal judgement into a societal judgement. It's sensationalism at its worse. I will defend to the death your right to have, hold and express your opinion, but not to speak on behalf of everyone. Fair enough?

 

[Another Voice]

"Disney will only regain its respect when it once again creates a high level of production again.

Speak for yourself. That's really one of the things I've objected to: Twisting your personal judgment into a societal judgment."

No, actually it's a business judgment.

People disappointed with a bad movie are less likely to go to see the next one. People who don't find anything in a store worth buying are less likely to make future purchases there. People who feel a theme park is not worth the ticket price are very much less likely to buy a second admission.

It's not a matter of personal judgment to say that Feature Animation has been closed. It's a simple matter of fact. All the screaming about "respect your management" isn't going to sell tickets to a movie theater and generate another dime in revenue.

A business management that can't manage its own business earns no respect. A management that ruins its own business deserves our complete contempt.



P.S. – "Considering that I believe that if they kowtowed to what you would have had them do they would be out of business by now…"

So that's where my missing copy of the "If I Ran Disney" business plan went to!

 

[manning]

Disney is still in business, and is actually #2 in the industry.

but, but,but, were they not at one time #1............. a distant #1 ?????

 

[renknt]

Why choose only those companies? If you were being honest, you'd admit that unless there is evidence to the contrary, it is more likely that professional managers do make business decisions better than random online personalities like us. A few bad managers don't make a dent in the reputations of the managers of tens of thousands of other companies.

I know that factual evidence of managers not doing a great or even good job will make any difference to some in this thread.

Sarbanes-Oxley Act of 2002 and increased scrutiny by the Securities and Exchange Commission are these just because congress is bored. This is a pro- business republican congress as well but hey corporate managers know better the us so congress should know better than them (corporate managers) so all is well right?

And just because "someone" knows better dosen't mean that they always do better.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Mr. Manning!! I am surprised at you!! NO ONE could have prevented it!! Why? Simply because they are "Professionals doing their jobs!!" And it would have happened to any Professional!! Surely you should know that by now!!


Hmmmmm. Where did I hear that line before? Let me see... ah... well... it could have been... OH! I know!!! It was what some guy on RADP kept preaching over and over and over and over again!! (Much to Carol's chagrin!!)

And why did he keep repeating it? Because the "Doom and Gloomers" kept saying that if those "Professionals doing their jobs" didn't smarten up a bit, Disney would not only lose that light-year lead they had, but would wind up in second place!!

OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!!! I just had an epiphany!!! A revelation!! So very plain to see…

THE AMUTURES WERE RIGHT!!!! And the “professionals doing their jobs” and their main cheerleader (rah-rah!!) was WRONG!!!

It is one of the reasons I left RADP!! The noise level was just too high!!

 

[bicker]

It is true that I do object to amateurs thinking they know better than the people actually running companies. It's so incredibly self-serving and arrogant, that I cannot let it go without making the point. To underscore just how weak such a position is, just look at the messages above: Continual use of euphamism and over-the-top exaggeration; refusal to acknowledge that the basis for comparison is what would have happened otherwise, instead of some professed prognostication; focusing attention on the few examples that support their cause while ignoring the tens of thousands of examples that prove their few examples were nothing more than isolated abberations. However, it's like a dog with a bone... clearly the folks who were interested in actually discussing the issue are gone, and all that are left are the folks who think they know better, and me, who knows they don't. And now we've reached the point where y'all are just repeating yourselves (since there isn't anything different left to say, eh?)

I'm sorry I wasn't able to help you understand the realities of business. Nice chatting with you though.

 

[Bstanley]

Well I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree then, Bicker.