Was Pierzynski OUT or NOT?

[Deb in IA]

Last night controversial ALCS game:

Angels lose Game 2 after controversial call
CHICAGO (AP) - The Angels were certain they were headed to extra innings.

A.J. Pierzynski and the White Sox had other ideas - and so did the home plate umpire.

So while third-string catcher Josh Paul and his Los Angeles teammates ran off the field Wednesday night, Pierzynski took off for first base, triggering what is sure to go down as one of the most disputed endings in postseason history.

Given a second chance when umpire Doug Eddings called strike three - but not the third out - Chicago beat the Los Angeles Angels 2-1 on Joe Crede's two-out double in the ninth to even the best-of-seven AL championship series at a game apiece.

"I didn't do anything," Pierzynski said. "I struck out."

Sure, but that's not what fans will remember for years to come.

In a sequence as bizarre as any imaginable on a baseball field, Pierzynski swung at and missed a low pitch from Angels reliever Kelvim Escobar, appearing to end the bottom of the ninth inning with the score tied at 1.

The ball was gloved by Paul - replays appeared to show he caught it cleanly just before it would have hit the dirt. And behind him, Eddings clearly raised his right arm and closed his fist, signaling strike three.

"When he rings him up with a fist, he's out," Los Angeles manager Mike Scioscia said.

Being a catcher - Scioscia was one, too - Pierzynski knew to play it all the way through, just in case. He twirled around and hustled to first.

"I thought for sure the ball hit the ground. I watched the replay 50 times and I still don't know. The third strike is in the dirt, you run," Pierzynski said. "I didn't hear him say out, Josh didn't tag me."

In fact, Eddings was silent.

"I did not say, 'No catch,"' said Eddings, a major league umpire since 1999 who is working his third postseason assignment. "I'm watching Josh Paul, seeing what he's going to do."

After the game, Eddings watched several replays and stood by his call.

"We saw it on a couple different angles, the ball changes directions," Eddings said. "I had questions. I didn't have him catching the ball."

Positive the inning was over, Paul rolled the ball out to the mound with the Angels already coming off the field, so Pierzynski was easily safe.

"Customarily, if the ball is in the dirt, say if we block a ball for strike three, they usually say, 'No catch, no catch, no catch.' And I didn't hear any of that," Paul said. "That's why I was headed back to the dugout."

Then everybody stopped, including the umpires. When they let Pierzynski stay at first, Scioscia came out of the dugout to argue.

The umpires huddled and upheld the call after a delay of about four minutes. Last year's postseason was marked by umpires consulting and drawing praise for getting key calls correct - even if it meant overturning the original ruling.

When it looked as if play was about to begin again, Scioscia came out again and Eddings conferred with third-base umpire Ed Rapuano.

Again the call stood, and the White Sox capitalized.

Pinch-runner Pablo Ozuna quickly stole second, and Crede lined an 0-2 pitch into the left-field corner for a game-winning double.

Mark Buehrle pitched a five-hitter for the first complete game of this postseason, and the White Sox bounced back from a tight loss in the opener.

"Do we feel lucky? No," Pierzynski said. "Did they feel lucky when they won last night?"

Probably not, but they certainly felt robbed this time. Scioscia and several Angels lingered in the dugout, staring in disbelief at what they had seen.

 

[foolishmortal]

I chose no only because the catcher is just at fault if not more than the ump. You are taught in Little league not to quit on the play unitl you hear and see the out signal. Well the catcher just rolled the ball and did nothing else. Make sure you get the out then argue!!!!

Also....Did the batter score on that play...NO. They had a chance to get the next guy out and they didn't take care of business. They had 2 chances to end it and they didn't.

lesson of the story...never quit until the play is over.

 

[foolishmortal]

p.s. I am a national league fan, so no bias in my remarks! Plus baseball is my favorite sport, and I coach little league and I always tell them to throw to first no matter what on a strike 3 with no one on base. Better safe than sorry!!!!

 

[Tigger&Belle]

I chose no only because the catcher is just at fault if not more than the ump. You are taught in Little league not to quit on the play unitl you hear and see the out signal. Well the catcher just rolled the ball and did nothing else. Make sure you get the out then argue!!!!

Also....Did the batter score on that play...NO. They had a chance to get the next guy out and they didn't take care of business. They had 2 chances to end it and they didn't.

lesson of the story...never quit until the play is over.

The homeplate umpire clearly called him out, so the catcher did see and hear the out signal. There's no question in the umps call, but then the batter played like it was a dropped third strike and ran. By the time that happened, after the batter was called out by the ump, the catcher rolled the ball to the pitchers mound.

So yes, don't quit until the play is over, but the play WAS over.

 

[Bob Slydell]

The Angels got screwed -- the umpires are so full of themselves, they can never admit when they've messed up. Yeah, Paul should have just tagged Pierzynski right away, which should have been human nature, but the fact that even Pierzynski thought he was out (by first walking toward the dugout) tells me something.

 

[pozey]

HUGE St. Louis Cardinals fan here.

But I also am a huge baseball fan.

YES he was out. The catcher caught the ball clean. He did what catchers normally do on a strikeout to end an inning. The umpire signaled the out sign.

I will give props to the batter who had the forethought to run to first though.

 

[Virgo10]

I watched the replay numerous times and I still couldn't tell. A few times I was sure the ball hit the dirt first. It was a really weird ending to that game.

 

[Alicnwondrln]

i dont like either team but the angels were robbed

they got the red sox screw
hey someone has to

 

[Missy1961]

The Angels got screwed -- the umpires are so full of themselves, they can never admit when they've messed up. Yeah, Paul should have just tagged Pierzynski right away, which should have been human nature, but the fact that even Pierzynski thought he was out (by first walking toward the dugout) tells me something.

What he said.

 

[foolishmortal]

The homeplate umpire clearly called him out, so the catcher did see and hear the out signal. There's no question in the umps call, but then the batter played like it was a dropped third strike and ran. By the time that happened, after the batter was called out by the ump, the catcher rolled the ball to the pitchers mound.

So yes, don't quit until the play is over, but the play WAS over.

He called strike three but not OUT. And the ump NEVER said out and the catcher is looking forward not backwards so how can he see behind him and hear something not said??
Also again if you are a catcher and you see the guy running...throw the ball, don't watch him run and roll it back.

 

[foolishmortal]

The Angels got screwed -- the umpires are so full of themselves, they can never admit when they've messed up. Yeah, Paul should have just tagged Pierzynski right away, which should have been human nature, but the fact that even Pierzynski thought he was out (by first walking toward the dugout) tells me something.

but how did he know to run?? BECAUSE HE NEVER HEARD THE OUT CALLED. It really isn't a hard thing to argue. The batter never heard out so he ran like he wa supposed, the catcher never heard out but assummed and rolled the ball back. There is no arguement at all. Even the ump said he never SAID out.

 

[nuke]

Until they have instant replay in Baseball it doesn't matter. They keep saying baseball is a game of inches and close calls. This time the Sox got the better call.

Go SOX!!


Right after the game Pierzinski said that he didn't hear the ump call him out so he decided to run to 1st base. He said that last year he was the catcher in a game and had a similar thing happen to him so when batting he will run if not called out.

 

[septbride2002]

The Angels got screwed -- the umpires are so full of themselves, they can never admit when they've messed up. Yeah, Paul should have just tagged Pierzynski right away, which should have been human nature, but the fact that even Pierzynski thought he was out (by first walking toward the dugout) tells me something.

I have never seen umpiring that bad. And Yes I think that they should be fined - majorly - when they make crappy calls like that. As I St. Lousian I grew up listening to Joe Buck and his dad Jack Buck announce the games. I could tell last night that he was in total disbelief of the call.

~Amanda

 

[Tigger&Belle]

He called strike three but not OUT. And the ump NEVER said out and the catcher is looking forward not backwards so how can he see behind him and hear something not said??
Also again if you are a catcher and you see the guy running...throw the ball, don't watch him run and roll it back.

If I'm remembering right, the batter was walking towards the dugout and the catcher rolled the ball back AFTER I saw the ump call him out. I clearly say the "he's out" sign.

More likely the batter had someone in the dugout yelling at him to run to 1st. Yes, a bad decision on the part of the catcher to not just tag him out of habit. That's what we expect our kids to do.

There is good news...there is now a guarantee of 5 games and my FIL has tickets to that game. Not that it does my DH any good since he didn't invite my DH. But at least it's good for my FIL.

 

[foolishmortal]

If I'm remembering right, the batter was walking towards the dugout and the catcher rolled the ball back AFTER I saw the ump call him out. I clearly say the "he's out" sign.

More likely the batter had someone in the dugout yelling at him to run to 1st. Yes, a bad decision on the part of the catcher to not just tag him out of habit. That's what we expect our kids to do.

There is good news...there is now a guarantee of 5 games and my FIL has tickets to that game. Not that it does my DH any good since he didn't invite my DH. But at least it's good for my FIL.

This I can agree with you on..playoff baseball...nothing better, unless your're there, tell your FIL to have a cold one on me too!!!!!!!

Now about the dugout yelling at the runner....that's what I am talking about...runner never heard out, dugout never heard out, and the ump even said he never said out...there is nothing else to say. Saying strike 3 and saying OUT are totally different, and when you are in the pros the catcher should no better....like AJ a former catcher.

 

[foolishmortal]

There is 1 good thing about all of this though!!!

It teachs those that do not know the full rules of baseball a little more than trying to explain it. My wife keeps telling me stirke 3 he's out...but I had to explain the dropped ball with noone on first rule...then she understood. She told me she never understood when she see's me telling the kids to run during a game even though it was stirke 3...now she....and many others know

 

[Bob Slydell]

but how did he know to run?? BECAUSE HE NEVER HEARD THE OUT CALLED. It really isn't a hard thing to argue. The batter never heard out so he ran like he wa supposed, the catcher never heard out but assummed and rolled the ball back. There is no arguement at all. Even the ump said he never SAID out.

Ah hell, batters run to first base on swinging third strikes all the time -- half the time, there's a guy standing on first base, so there's no point to running. It's instinct -- you try to extend the play until otherwise told not to.

But the fact is, the only reason the umpires didn't end up calling him out is because by the time AJ's standing on first base, the ump would have had to admit that he actually called him out. The ump was as dumbfounded as anyone else that the play kept going on.

 

[Quackmore]

He was OUT and the Angels were Robbed big time.

 

[foolishmortal]

Ah hell, batters run to first base on swinging third strikes all the time -- half the time, there's a guy standing on first base, so there's no point to running. It's instinct -- you try to extend the play until otherwise told not to.

But the fact is, the only reason the umpires didn't end up calling him out is because by the time AJ's standing on first base, the ump would have had to admit that he actually called him out. The ump was as dumbfounded as anyone else that the play kept going on.

He was not dumbfounded, he said he knew it bounced once it happened.
And there was noone standing on first so he didn't stop and he was safe. Could it have been called out and no arguements Yes I agree with everyone on that point

but my side is...he was never called out so the play wasn't over no arguement! Same as instant replay in football, if the whistle blows it doesn't matter not reviewable catch/fumble or not, replay wouldn't have helped in this case because replay would either have showed it hit the ground, or it was irreversible because of the orignal call on the field. A ball doesn't change direction and make 2 nosies unless it it's something first and then the glove. Again, I agree if it would have been called out game over, but look at what was called and the result.

not too mention they had a chance to throw runner out at 2nd on the steal, and a chance to get the batter out, which both failed. Same as the Steve Bartman thing in Chicao Cubs..He didn't directly cause the Cubs to lose..them not getting an out with the next 4 batters caused it.

I don't want to argue this anymore because both sides have valid points, but just go off the orignal call and ask yourself what would have happened in NFL....probably nothing because the play was never ruled dead.

 

[Bob Slydell]

You can't compare the NFL and MLB when it comes to something like this. One main reason -- referees use the same signal with regards to the end of a play, no matter who the ref is. The whistle blow.

But in MLB, where umpires are regarded as some sort of deity (ever wonder why there's never an instant replay of a close call shown in a MLB park?), every umpire feels like he has to have a "style" One ump makes a big show of calling a strike three, while another one barely acts like he's awake and so on. So you end up with 17 interpretations of whether or not an ump's fist in the air is a strike three call or an out call.

I'm not disputing that this didn't lose the game for the Angels, because it didn't. Heck, I'm not even arguing whether or not the ball bounced. I'm just arguing that every time one of these calls happens in baseball, the umpires are always quick to come up with all these defenses as to why they're always right and everyone else was wrong.