WARNING! DEBATE! Are political beliefs based on emotion?

[tonyswife]

Originally posted by wvrevy
Wonderful. Of course, your belief would be wrong, but hey, that's never stopped any other republicans I know, so why should you be different ?

Because I'm not a republican.

(If you don't believe government assistance can provide "meaningful" relief, I'd suggest you talk to a single mother that without WIC couldn't buy milk, let alone support herself and her baby...but I guess that's not "meaningful" enough ?)

Of course it's not meaningful enough. The goal should not be mere existance, but to assist that single mother learn to help herself. There is no question (as I have said over and over) that some people need help. "help" is not buying them a gallon of milk a week for the rest of their lives.

Of COURSE there is fat in the system...there is in the charity world as well. That doesn't mean that the goal itself is unworthy.

Which goal, existance or self-reliance? The difference with charity of course is that if I find the ones to which I donate to be lacking, I can remove my support and look elsewhere for a better program.

Yes, I would call it just that: a faulty assumption on my part. I didn't put words in your mouth (I wasn't quoting you)

Excuse me, you said "people like you" and then went on to list a bunch of characteristics that you feel "people like me" have including the opinion that people on welfare are free-loaders and bums. It certainly was puting words in my mouth. Of course you wearn't quoting me, if you hd quoted me, you would have been taking words out of my mouth.

and I wasn't trying to "cast doubt on your character".

right, you were trying to make friends.

At least, not any more-so than you were with your "dim view" comment a while back, but that's ok, right ?

I apologize to all liberals then. The comment was directed at you specifically and I should have been more clear. Is it not your position that the needy cannot rely on private citizens for help? In my mind that is a "dim view" of American citizens.

 

[sha_lyn]

Wonderful. Of course, your belief would be wrong, but hey, that's never stopped any other republicans I know, so why should you be different ? (If you don't believe government assistance can provide "meaningful" relief, I'd suggest you talk to a single mother that without WIC couldn't buy milk, let alone support herself and her baby...but I guess that's not "meaningful" enough ?) Of COURSE there is fat in the system...there is in the charity world as well. That doesn't mean that the goal itself is unworthy.

How is that WIC voucher teaching her to provide for her child? How is it making the father of said child responsible to his child?
There are other measure that need to be taken. A WIC voucher onlf provides for the moment. How does that WIC voucher discourage the mother from having more children that she can't provide for? To provide only free support does nothing but make one dependant on the system.


The system is set up to make people fail.
Here is a perfect example of your system hard at work.

I knew a woman who's youngerst child was born with a heart defect. When the parents separate he was due for more surgery. During their divorce the father quit his job to take on under te table becauce he didn't want to pay the amount ordered to pay for their 3 kids. When he quit there went the insurance.

The little boy was on oxygen and a feeding tube at home and needed in home care 2-3 times a day. He was on several meds a day and 2-3 cans in pedisure.


Welfare sent the mother to live in a run down trailer park that they had a contract with, then they threaten to take the kids away because the place was run down.

Medicare only paid for 1 can of pediasure a day, and about 1/2 of his meds (I think 5 out of 12 perscriptions).

The mother was told she would lose custody of the child if she worked (because they would train her for his care but no one else) but she didn't have the $$ to buy hte other meds or the rest of his pedisure so she started babysitting in her home.


They insisted she stop because she was under orders to not work and she was exposing him to germs.

They took all 3 kids away and gave them to the dead beat father and his live in girl friend. The same father they claimed they could not find to get inforce the child support and insurance order.


Yep the system is working great

 

[wvrevy]

Originally posted by tonyswife
Because I'm not a republican. [/b

Sorry...scratch the word "other" from my comment, then. I couldn't tell the difference

Originally posted by tonyswife
Of course it's not meaningful enough. The goal should not be mere existance, but to assist that single mother learn to help herself. There is no question (as I have said over and over) that some people need help. "help" is not buying them a gallon of milk a week for the rest of their lives.

The current system DOES allow those that are capable to help themselves. It enables them to continue to try to improve their own lot. What it DOESN'T do is cut them off if there luck doesn't immediately change and abandon them to whatever fate decides to deal. What would you suggest ? Cut it off and let them (and yes, their dependants) starve ?

Originally posted by tonyswife
right, you were trying to make friends.

No, I have plenty of friends, thanks...and if you look back through this thread, you were the one that started in on me, not the other way around.

Originally posted by tonyswife
I apologize to all liberals then. The comment was directed at you specifically and I should have been more clear. Is it not your position that the needy cannot rely on private citizens for help? In my mind that is a "dim view" of American citizens.

Yes, because saying: I can see how that doesn't fit in with the typical dim view of America that liberals have. But that's just me. certainly seems like you were "directing the comment just at me" Watch out for those glass houses, I hear they're a real pain to keep clean

 

[Bobbles]

Perhaps I should have posted this thread under a different title. More like "WARNING! DEBATE! Are DEBATES responses based on emotion?"


I am totally new in the debate world.

I think most positions on political beliefs are founded on emotion.

I did like the point brought up that libertarians are more analytical. I can see that. My friend is a truly analytical math minded aerodynamicist. (He even looks like a college professor!) And he likes to be considered a Libertarian.

But what I have learned is that while we, in general, have our "beliefs", we tend to use sources on the net that back up our beliefs.
It is hard to logically view both sides without getting emotional about it.

I have enjoyed all of the reponses here. Thanks!

 

[tonyswife]

Originally posted by wvrevy
Sorry...scratch the word "other" from my comment, then. I couldn't tell the difference

The current system DOES allow those that are capable to help themselves. It enables them to continue to try to improve their own lot.

How does it do this, exactly?

What it DOESN'T do is cut them off if there luck doesn't immediately change and abandon them to whatever fate decides to deal.

But that is precisely what is does. We took a bad system and made it worse.

What would you suggest ? Cut it off and let them (and yes, their dependants) starve ?

Yeah, that's me, kicking starving children as I walk down the steet.

No, I have plenty of friends, thanks...and if you look back through this thread, you were the one that started in on me, not the other way around.

You started in on "conservatives" and I responded in kind. You then proceeded to assume that I think everyone on welfare are free-loaders and bums.

Yes, because saying: I can see how that doesn't fit in with the typical dim view of America that liberals have. But that's just me. certainly seems like you were "directing the comment just at me"

Right, which is exactly why I apologized to liberals in general and clarified that I was talking about just you. I made a mistake and admitted to it.

Watch out for those glass houses, I hear they're a real pain to keep clean

I apologized, would you like to cane me next?

 

[wvrevy]

As did I, though you haven't shut up about it yet

I think that's about enough for one thread....I'm done with this with you.

 

[tonyswife]

Originally posted by wvrevy
As did I, though you haven't shut up about it yet

well, it was a qualified apology, but I'll accept it anyway.

I think that's about enough for one thread....I'm done with this with you.

Right then, until next time. Cheers.