"Virginia moving to eliminate all accelerated math courses before 11th grade as part of equity-focused plan"

[KingAugie]

I'm reading it. It says 11th and 12th grade is when you can branch out. Kids are taking college level classes in 10th grade at our school. My children were behind others by waiting to taking AP Calc in 11th grade. Why would anyone want all students to be on the same course until they reach 11th grade?

Our kids are not offered college level classes until 11th grade here.
They do have the option to take honors classes from 7th grade on (although I believe math honors starts in 8th), however it is the same curriculum as the "regular" class but a faster pace and a more aggressive work load. A student can choose to go in to honors based on their grades, but if they do not they are still eligible for AP classes in 11th (based on their grades from previous years).

 

[KingAugie]

The students who are gifted in math will be bored out of their minds by 10th grade, and will not have the exposure to more complicated concepts when they get to the proposed grade for the "harder" stuff.

And those students (along with their parents) are perfectly capable of seeking out further enrichment. I mean if they are that gifted anyway.
I think maybe we should wait to see what else is offered before saying these kids will be bored. Take a look at an actual course handbook before we jump to conclusions.
I know in our district all students take X<Y<Z but if you actually look at the handbook there are "levels" of X>Y>Z. I assume it will be something like that here in VA.
These are not advanced levels, it's more about adjusting the pace and workload.

 

[amylevan]

And those students (along with their parents) are perfectly capable of seeking out further enrichment. I mean if they are that gifted anyway.

Just to say, that’s not exactly helping equity. Because if that student from the lower class family is one that could excel at math, they are the least likely to look for enrichment opportunities.

 

[Makmak]

So....I see some saying all the different learning levels and styles will be accommodated by a single teacher in one classroom instead and f separate classrooms.....then how is that different than just having separate classrooms? It’s not. This is “equality theatre” as more advanced students will still be favored.

 

[KingAugie]

Just to say, that’s not exactly helping equity. Because if that student from the lower class family is one that could excel at math, they are the least likely to look for enrichment opportunities.

No it isn't but it isn't the schools job to provide equity in learning outside of their walls.
Are parents now not supposed to seek out what their children need because others can't?
Is that what you are saying here?

 

[Colleen27]

I'm not really sure if I agree with it being crazy. It seems that the students capable of "higher" math will still be able to choose to take those courses in 11th and 12th grade.
If they eliminated them all together I could see it being a problem, but they aren't.

And the higher math offerings they list on those slides for 11th and 12th graders are fascinating. Much higher level stuff and much more tailored to a student's interests than anything that was available when I was in school or for my 19 & 23yos.

I am curious how the teachers feel about this change, though, since it appears to lean heavily on differentiated education in the foundational courses. That's a lot more work for teachers than specialized classes where everyone is on the same lesson at the same time. We implemented it (successfully, in my view) at DD's middle school but our teachers have been very clear in their feedback that it is a model that works because of our small class sizes. Our class-size cap is 20 and our math teacher felt that a full class is pushing the limits of practicality for differentiated teaching, but since this is a public school reform, I'd imagine teachers will be asked to implement it in classes of 30 or more.

I'm reading it. It says 11th and 12th grade is when you can branch out. Kids are taking college level classes in 10th grade at our school. My children were behind others by waiting to taking AP Calc in 11th grade. Why would anyone want all students to be on the same course until they reach 11th grade?

I think it was only a matter of time until we started seeing some pushback against the pressure-cooker situation in so many high schools. Why would anyone think it is a good thing to expect 15yo kids to be able to handle college level courses for the sake of competing in the college admissions race and keeping up with their peers?

 

[KittyKitty]

Both completed AP Calculus in 11th grade.

Did they take a math class in 12th grade? The highest math a student could take was Calculus at my school. Just curious. Thanks

 

[JimMIA]

One comment:

Don't make the mistake of seeing an article citation of Fox News (or CNN, or MSNBC) and automatically assuming it is not legit. ALL news media applies their own editorial bias to many stories, but that doesn't mean the underlying story is phony.

When Pink Partridge first posted this thread, I did a 10-second Google search and found similar articles from both the Washington Post and New York Times. Anyone could have done the same instead of claiming the story was bogus based on the source quoted.

I personally never assume any news story is BS just because of the source -- I do my homework so I won't look even more silly than usual.

 

[Nabas]

Unfortunately, that network has proven itself to be basically unreliable and I’m not speaking of it’s slant. When I read a newspaper with a similar ideology I opt for WSJ. CNN and MSNBC are not much different but at least there is less chance of confusing commentators for news readers.

It’s easy to figure out news vs commentary on Fox.

Fox ‘news’ occurs from 6 to 7 pm Monday to Friday.

The remaining 23 hours of their schedule is commentary (i.e. spin).

Frankly, it’s not much different than most “news” channels.

Commentary (i.e. spin) gets better ratings.

People don’t want news. They want to hear “news people” reinforce their opinions.

 

[Colleen27]

I'm a similar age and we had 3 math paths in high school, starting in 9th grade: a non-college math path, a college math path, and an advanced math path. As I recall, there was only about a dozen kids on the advanced math path.

It was still like this when I was in school in the 90s, but that wasn't exactly ideal because you ended up locked into the track you chose/were assigned as an 8th grader. For kids on the lower track, there was no way to "catch up" to the middle or upper tracks if the material started clicking (or was too easy to begin with but behavioral immaturity masked academic ability). And for kids assigned to the upper track, there was no way to "bail" if being a strong student in fundamental math areas like algebra and geometry didn't translate to being a capable student of calculus, because those students had already taken the lower math courses by the time they hit the wall but needed 4 years of math to graduate. So being good at pre-algebra in 8th grade meant they had to deal with calculus as seniors because there was no other fourth-year math option for those on the top track.

So for those of you who say a similar plan is already in use in your area, how does a plan like this meet the needs of kids on either end of average? Are all students in the same math classes? From those who need repetition and drilling to instill concepts/methods to those who innately understand them because they are mathy kids?

So at our school, all the students are in the same math class and lessons are tailored to each student's level. The teacher spends very little time presenting to the class as a whole. Instead, she works with clusters of kids who are at a common level, each in turn, while the rest of the class works on their assignments. We use an adaptive software program rather than paper & pencil for those assignments, so the teacher has detailed metrics on how each student is doing on each sub-section of each skill and can re-group the classroom clusters as needed. That way, a child who might struggle with algebraic concepts but grasps geometry easily can receive appropriate instruction in both skill areas rather than being assigned a level at class-selection time and stuck there. The software also does a good job of identifying how much repetition each student needs for mastery; assignment length varies based on performance, so those who get it right off the bat move on quickly to the next module while those who need to work out a few extra problems to grasp the concept get those extra problems to do. It honestly operates very much like a (good) elementary school math class, where kids don't get sorted into different classrooms based on who already knows their shapes or can skip-count. But this is in middle school with an average class size of 12; both of the high schools we feed into have traditional math programs, and most of our kids test into the "high" track of freshman year geometry.

So....I see some saying all the different learning levels and styles will be accommodated by a single teacher in one classroom instead and f separate classrooms.....then how is that different than just having separate classrooms? It’s not. This is “equality theatre” as more advanced students will still be favored.

It seems to me like this is a sterling example of something that sounds good in theory being implemented without regard to the challenges it faces in practice. It would take a truly exceptional teacher with a lot of energy and dedication to handle differentiating a math curriculum in a typical-size classroom. Most kids won't have such exceptional teachers, so mediocrity is likely to replace exclusionary tracking - just substituting one problem for another, rather than solving it. I agree with the aims of the revision - kids shouldn't be limited for the entirety of their academic careers based on their performance at 11 -13 years old - but I question whether it can work within the constraints of our public schools.

 

[Nabas]

Did they take a math class in 12th grade? The highest math a student could take was Calculus at my school. Just curious. Thanks

My local high school (which has an outstanding math program) offers Calculus II through Georgia Tech.

Georgia Tech is challenging, few easy courses there.

The Ivy League school I attended is a lot easier than Georgia Tech.

The hardest thing about an Ivy League school is getting in. Once you are in, you are almost guaranteed to graduate. (I did have a handful of classmates who couldn’t manage their newly found independence and got into academic trouble, but they did graduate in 5 years.)

 

[Colleen27]

Did they take a math class in 12th grade? The highest math a student could take was Calculus at my school. Just curious. Thanks

Some schools offer AP statistics. That was the senior year class for kids who took AP calc as juniors at my daughter's school. But a lot of the kids in that group had actually taken freshman algebra as 8th graders and had their four credits without taking any math senior year, and plenty took advantage of that to have a lighter senior course load.

 

[piglet1979]

Our district is getting rid of all honor courses. My daughter will be the last class to have honors and we had to fight for it for next year. They only decided to keep because some of the kids are already in the honor classes so it would be a step back for them. DD is in 8th grade now and is getting 100% each quarter in math and is bored. They are moving her to honors next year.

My son in 9th grade is in all honor classes until next year. So far they are getting rid of honors history. No big deal here. In 9th grade he is already taking biology, bio-med and geometry. If he was not able to move ahead this kid would most likely get in trouble because there would be nothing for him to do. He needs to be challenged.

 

[ksanftleben]

Did they take a math class in 12th grade? The highest math a student could take was Calculus at my school. Just curious. Thanks

My granddaughter attends a performing arts high school in Virginia. She'll be taking AP Calculus in the 11th grade and AP Statistics in the 12th. I think that the same sequence is available at most regular high schools if a student starts with Algebra in the 7th grade.

I think some of Virginia's specialized STEM high schools also offer high-level, post-basic-calculus math courses like Multivariable Calculus, Concrete Math, Linear Algebra, and Advanced Mathematical Techniques.

 

[DisneyJamieCA]

The current system which aims to cover material over mastery is problematic. So often the teacher pushes forward before many of the students have mastered the material.

This sounds like a switch to mastery over volume of material.

But I think the switch is occurring too late and doing it in the name of equity is ridiculous.

Learning is never going to be equitable. Some will learn faster, some will learn slower.
Pushing past the slower learners is not right, removing opportunities for the faster learners is not right.

If mastery is to be the focus it should be the focus for all grades, not just starting in high school. And there should be a commitment to the plan for a minimum of 16 years. How else would you know if it worked if you don’t have a few years of students who made it all the way through their school career with the new technique? There needs to be data to compare. But parents and voters are never willing to let the schools stick to an idea long enough to know if it helps or hurts.

I actually agree with you on the building it all the way through school, no just in high school. And that’s exactly what our school does here. K-5 is one curriculum that builds on itself. 6th switches to a different one, even though it’s elementary here, and continues into 7th/8th. I’m not sure if high school is the same curriculum or not, but the 3 years of “regular” math are building.

 

[JimMIA]

It’s easy to figure out news vs commentary on Fox.

Fox ‘news’ occurs from 6 to 7 pm Monday to Friday.

The remaining 23 hours of their schedule is commentary (i.e. spin).

Frankly, it’s not much different than most “news” channels.

Commentary (i.e. spin) gets better ratings.

People don’t want news. They want to hear “news people” reinforce their opinions.

Agree, except to me NONE of the "news people" (on ANY national/international network) are journalists. Journalism died many years ago.

They are TV Performers.

 

[jen7233]

Right off the bat your source is questionable.

Are there any other outlets reporting this?

VDOE :: Virginia Mathematics Pathways Initiative (VMPI)

 

[mjkacmom]

The year my twins were in 6th grade, the schools decided that students weren’t switching for math (previously 3 levels), my friend is a 6th grade teacher and said it didn’t work (his daughter, my daughter’s best friend, was also in 6th grade). Fortunately he was able to tutor my kids so they could test into algebra for 7th grade (my other kids never needed tutoring because they learned everything they needed in 6th grade math). He said it’s not possible to teach different levels in the same class, even breaking them into groups.

 

[mjkacmom]

My granddaughter attends a performing arts high school in Virginia. She'll be taking AP Calculus in the 11th grade and AP Statistics in the 12th. I think that the same sequence is available at most regular high schools if a student starts with Algebra in the 7th grade.

I think some of Virginia's specialized STEM high schools also offer high-level, post-basic-calculus math courses like Multivariable Calculus, Concrete Math, Linear Algebra, and Advanced Mathematical Techniques.

My senior is taking AP BC calculus now, her twin AP statistics because it’s easier (Dd took AP stats as a second math sophomore year).

 

[monsterkitty]

I live in Virginia. When my son was in 12th grade, he took AP Calc BC (which is the second part of AP Calc). To get there, he took Algebra I in 7th grade and Geometry in 8th grade. He was VERY good at math (which he did not inherit from me - I stink at math) and would have been bored stiff stuck in a regular 7th or 8th grade math class.

I’m also a teacher (English), and as I read I saw “enrichment opportunities” and “differentiated instruction”. That means that the teacher will not be able to teach just one lesson to the class. S/he’ll have to teach special content to pull the lower students up and special content to keep the smart kids challenged and engaged. That means individualized lessons for each student, and that makes it very hard on the teacher! I predict many will quit.

I 100% believe in equality and equal access, but we can’t close our eyes to the fact that every human has different gifts. Because of this the playing field will never be totally level.

This is what we've done on our district for at least the past 15 years. Every child has an individual plan for every class. Not kidding. However, it works. It's incredibly hard on us teachers, but it works.

How a class is set up: Students are placed in all classes by levels, not grade levels. Within in that class students move through the level at a pace that allows for their own ability to grasp the concepts. If you're in a math class you will be in that class with other students who are the same academic level as you in that math class. However, in that math class students will still move at different speeds. Therefore the teacher may have 3 or 4 different lessons going on at the same time. For those students who grasp the concept faster than others, they are given deeper understanding problems.

It's like this for every subject. Even band and orchestra. I had to create different plans for each one of my students and I had 250-300/year. It wasn't so bad until we got a new principal 6 years ago. Until then we would group students with similar needs and abilities so we could copy and paste each plan. He no longer allowed us to do that and our spread sheets with plans were deleted.

We did not have a huge turnover rate. Those who came into the system knew what they were getting into and we would only lose teachers who were retiring or moving out of the area. This year, however, there are at least 5 teachers quitting but it has nothing to do with our individual education plans.

Wonderful, we can all be equally dumb, while China teaches Calculus to sixth graders.

China can try to teach Calculus to 11/12 year olds all they want. However, the cognitive levels of this age will prevent 99% of those students from understanding anything put in front of them.