Verizon striking

[Muushka]

The Unions were the driving force behind the legislation.. They were the motivation for the balance that we have enjoyed for many years... who is profiting from the imbalance?

So it was not a victory in Wi for "Taxpayers" as you said ... just for "some" taxpayers (and not a total victory as there were legislators recalled)

As I said the Union Members are taxpayers and pay the higher taxes for their own wages also ... they are not separate from taxpaying America as "some" want you to believe and as your semantics imply...

We should be working towards all of us being raised up... not tearing each other down..IMO!!!
As I said before the "haves" (Koch Brothers etc.) laugh as we fight amongst ourselves

OK, so yes, I agree, without the unions having brought to the forefront the injustices that were going on at factories, legislation would not have been passed. It has been passed now. Union gets credit. Move on.

The victory in WI was for all taxpayers who were interested in bringing down the state debt so that it would remain solvent. Whether or not the union member tax payers can see that or not, I have no idea.

For now, it is a total victory because the party that was for bringing down expenses won and still has the power.
Yes, the other party did win 2 seats. Agreed.

Of course union members pay higher taxes just like any WI citizen. Nobody said they didn't.
But doesn't common sense tell you that if you want the party that will continue giving you great benefits to remain in power, of course you are going to need to vote for them?

If you believe that some that seem to want to tear down unions do it just to irritate you, think again. We are doing it to be able to save money. Money for our cities, states and federal government. Money saved means more jobs, less lay offs, lower taxes (or rather, no new higher taxes).

 

[akhenaten]

Again, these are two very different things. The corporate executives answer to the investors. Who do the union leaders answer to? The strikers are in a wage group earning between $46,800 - $67,600, the union president for IBEW was given total compensation of $375,767 last year, exactly how isn't he a "have?" Perhaps if the union leadership were to be compensated less there would be better bargaining room?

Quick update: Grocery workers in parts of Southern California are going to take a strike vote next week. If you followed the last strike they had, it didn't end too well. Record levels of unemployment and union leadership advises a strike.

Are you talking about the Leader of the National IBEW... That is a huge Union!!! You need to compare that salary to a CEO of a major company... you show me a CEO that makes only $300,000 - $400,000!! The CEO's bonus is most likely more than that!!

Union leaders answer to their membership...

As to the grocery worker's they can vote to not strike... it is their choice.

 

[akhenaten]

OK, so yes, I agree, without the unions having brought to the forefront the injustices that were going on at factories, legislation would not have been passed. It has been passed now. Union gets credit. Move on.

The victory in WI was for all taxpayers who were interested in bringing down the state debt so that it would remain solvent. Whether or not the union member tax payers can see that or not, I have no idea.

For now, it is a total victory because the party that was for bringing down expenses won and still has the power.
Yes, the other party did win 2 seats. Agreed.

Of course union members pay higher taxes just like any WI citizen. Nobody said they didn't.
But doesn't common sense tell you that if you want the party that will continue giving you great benefits to remain in power, of course you are going to need to vote for them?

If you believe that some that seem to want to tear down unions do it just to irritate you, think again. We are doing it to be able to save money. Money for our cities, states and federal government. Money saved means more jobs, less lay offs, lower taxes (or rather, no new higher taxes).

More low paying jobs... more working poor... while the divide between the rich and poor grows and the middle class disappears.

Move on and get rid of unions and we will revert back...

When Unions were stronger, more Americans (Union and Non-Union) had good health insurance at work and pensions... as the Unions have been weakened so have the benefits for all.

 

[bonoriffic]

Union leaders answer to their membership...

And CEO's answer to share holders. Not the employees.

For every person who says, but Verizon has record profits, they need to add in "this quarter". They had massive losses last year. They have invested billions into big bets like Fios and LTE. Their record profits don't begin to cover the expense.

Companies invest in themselves, and need to keep making record profits to come out ahead. One or two bad quarters and suddenly everyone is out of a job. Is everyone so short sighted that you think profits today mean the company shouldn't try to maximize profits tomorrow?

For anyone who screams corporate greed, the actual owners of the company (the millions of shareholders) call it good business.

 

[Muushka]

The Unions were the driving force behind the legislation... They were the motivation for the balance that we have enjoyed for many years... who is profiting from the imbalance?

So it was not a victory in Wi for "Taxpayers" as you said ... just for "some" taxpayers (and not a total victory as there were legislators recalled)

As I said the Union Members are taxpayers and pay the higher taxes for their own wages also ... they are not separate from taxpaying America as "some" want you to believe and as your semantics imply...

We should be working towards all of us being raised up... not tearing each other down..IMO!!!
As I said before the "haves" (Koch Brothers etc.) laugh as we fight amongst ourselves

I just did a little research. Can you tell me the difference between the Koch brothers and George Soros?
Other than their cause, of course.

 

[akhenaten]

And CEO's answer to share holders. Not the employees.

For every person who says, but Verizon has record profits, they need to add in "this quarter". They had massive losses last year. They have invested billions into big bets like Fios and LTE. Their record profits don't begin to cover the expense.

Companies invest in themselves, and need to keep making record profits to come out ahead. One or two bad quarters and suddenly everyone is out of a job. Is everyone so short sighted that you think profits today mean the company shouldn't try to maximize profits tomorrow?

For anyone who screams corporate greed, the actual owners of the company (the millions of shareholders) call it good business.

Moderation and balance!! That is what we need from all sectors...
If they break the Union they will have one less FIOS customer for sure...

 

[undertheradar]

Are you talking about the Leader of the National IBEW... That is a huge Union!!! You need to compare that salary to a CEO of a major company... you show me a CEO that makes only $300,000 - $400,000!! The CEO's bonus is most likely more than that!!

Union leaders answer to their membership...

As to the grocery worker's they can vote to not strike... it is their choice.

So who has the greater responsibility, the CEO or the union leader? Obviously the CEO has the higher stress job. In your comparison, exactly what is the product that the union leadership provides that couldn't be done without the union? Sorry, job security isn't one of them.

 

[Tink-aholic]

And of course union members pay taxes. And of course they are going to vote for people who are pro-union. They are not stupid.

I am currently in a union...but only because I essentially didn't have a choice (I'm a teacher). We have been working without a contract for over a year. My union is "upset" with me because I do more than my contract requires of me, without demanding anything in return. Pretty soon, we are expected to go to "work to rule" which means that I am not allowed to come in early or stay late or do anything extra for my students. If the union strikes, I will cross the picket line. I was hired to do a job, and I am going to do it. My students and the community depends on me to do it.

Personally, I think unions set up a confrontational "us" vs "them" scenario, no matter what type of business they're in. If only the workers and the management could work together to reach a common goal, I think a lot more people would be happy.

 

[sam_gordon]

When Unions were stronger, more Americans (Union and Non-Union) had good health insurance at work and pensions... as the Unions have been weakened so have the benefits for all.

Again, health insurance and pensions are BENEFITS... not required. Companies offer them to attract the better employees.

If two companies doing the same business both have openings and one offers health insurance & pensions and the other doesn't, who do you want to work for?

What happened is unions (through negotiation) made benefits happen at one company. In order for other companies to attract the better workers, they had to offer that also.

Let's say for the sake of this argument that Verizon says they are paying $0 in health care and $0 in retirement... it's ALL on the workers. Good for the company, right? They 'save' money. BUT, the workers will be flocking out the door for other jobs that DO offer the benefits. No workers = no product = no business.

But at the same time, if Verizon says they will pay 100% of healthcare and an extra 10% in retirement funds, it can't sustain that money outlay. Too much money outflow = no money to pay workers = layoffs.

There is a middle ground though. That's where the union and the company need to get together and COMPROMISE. Neither should hold the other hostage. Kind of sounds like the recent budget debate in Congress, huh.

 

[Muushka]

I am currently in a union...but only because I essentially didn't have a choice (I'm a teacher). We have been working without a contract for over a year. My union is "upset" with me because I do more than my contract requires of me, without demanding anything in return. Pretty soon, we are expected to go to "work to rule" which means that I am not allowed to come in early or stay late or do anything extra for my students. If the union strikes, I will cross the picket line. I was hired to do a job, and I am going to do it. My students and the community depends on me to do it.

Personally, I think unions set up a confrontational "us" vs "them" scenario, no matter what type of business they're in. If only the workers and the management could work together to reach a common goal, I think a lot more people would be happy.

Bless you Tink. Your post is an excellent one. And your students are lucky to have you as their teacher.

And I love what you said about management and workers. If only.....

 

[Robbiesmommy21]

I'm still cracking up about how "skilled" the majority of these union jobs at Verizon are. Would I want to be a lineman w/o training? No, but then again, the training involved is not rocket science and doesn't take all that long. Heck, I did inside wiring (inside the CO) for my last strike duty assignment and I had no prior training. Amazing Some of my group was assigned to work install and repair duty, and they all returned alive and in one piece. Sorry, but if the actual SKILLED jobs of air traffic controllers could be replaced, the not-so-skilled "skilled" union jobs at Verizon could be backfilled in short order with little to no training necessary for most jobs.

Ok I was going to leave this thread alone until I read this. My dh works for Comcast, which is not unionized. My dh works very hard and has a skill level that I would love to see you match. I want to see you jumping fences at 2 in the morning to get to the box in a backyard because the cable is out and have a gun pulled on you. I want to see you be in a bucket truck 2 hours after Hurricane Ike came through to get lines off the ground, leaving your family still scared and in the dark. I want you to take the 2 week classes that he has to take and pass for his raise. I want you to take phone calls during dinner cause if your repeat level is above 3% you get written up. Did I mention that if a cable box just craps out for no reason and has to be replaced that it counts as a repeat even if you didn't install it. So yeah anybody can go to Home Depot and run the wires for cable/phone/internet with a little help from the internet but it takes someone SKILLED to know how and why those little wires work. It takes someone SKILLED to work on the lines outside.

To those of you that are striking or have spouses that are striking, while my dh is not part of an union nor do we want to be, I will be thinking of you everyday that this goes on.

 

[luvestodizz]

It's interesting that the air traffic controller strike is being brought up. They had a no strike clause in their contract. By defying that clause, they took a risk and lost.

To those who think being a service tech is an unskilled job, find the nearest telephone pole and begin climbing. Watch out for the electrical wires and don't fall!!

 

[PatriciaH]

Ok I was going to leave this thread alone until I read this. My dh works for Comcast, which is not unionized. My dh works very hard and has a skill level that I would love to see you match. I want to see you jumping fences at 2 in the morning to get to the box in a backyard because the cable is out and have a gun pulled on you. I want to see you be in a bucket truck 2 hours after Hurricane Ike came through to get lines off the ground, leaving your family still scared and in the dark. I want you to take the 2 week classes that he has to take and pass for his raise. I want you to take phone calls during dinner cause if your repeat level is above 3% you get written up. Did I mention that if a cable box just craps out for no reason and has to be replaced that it counts as a repeat even if you didn't install it. So yeah anybody can go to Home Depot and run the wires for cable/phone/internet with a little help from the internet but it takes someone SKILLED to know how and why those little wires work. It takes someone SKILLED to work on the lines outside.

To those of you that are striking or have spouses that are striking, while my dh is not part of an union nor do we want to be, I will be thinking of you everyday that this goes on.

It's interesting that the air traffic controller strike is being brought up. They had a no strike clause in their contract. By defying that clause, they took a risk and lost.

To those who think being a service tech is an unskilled job, find the nearest telephone pole and begin climbing. Watch out for the electrical wires and don't fall!!

Yep My dad worked for the phone company for many years. He tore his rotator cuff, hurt his knee and hand, had dogs try to attack him, walked in to homes with obvious drug deals going on, climbed poles in freezing winter weather, had to deal with bitc**y movie stars, etc. It is not an easy job at all. He loved it though and the union made sure they were treated well. He now has a nice retirement.

 

[southbarringtonjen]

Ok I was going to leave this thread alone until I read this. My dh works for Comcast, which is not unionized. My dh works very hard and has a skill level that I would love to see you match. I want to see you jumping fences at 2 in the morning to get to the box in a backyard because the cable is out and have a gun pulled on you. I want to see you be in a bucket truck 2 hours after Hurricane Ike came through to get lines off the ground, leaving your family still scared and in the dark. I want you to take the 2 week classes that he has to take and pass for his raise. I want you to take phone calls during dinner cause if your repeat level is above 3% you get written up. Did I mention that if a cable box just craps out for no reason and has to be replaced that it counts as a repeat even if you didn't install it. So yeah anybody can go to Home Depot and run the wires for cable/phone/internet with a little help from the internet but it takes someone SKILLED to know how and why those little wires work. It takes someone SKILLED to work on the lines outside.

I think you are confusing skilled and dedicated. Jumping a fence at 2am to fix the cable is dedication, not skill. Leaving your family to go in a bucket truck after a hurricane isn't skilled work, it is dedication to your job. Taking classes and being good at your job isn't skilled work.

I don't work for Comcast, but I know how and why those little wires work. I'm not certified to operate a bucket truck, but I could be. I probably couldn't hop a fence, but then again I've never tried. I take phone calls during dinner all the time. So while I'm not entirely skilled to do the job, in a few hours I could be. My job requires several degrees. And even then, I could easily be replaced by someone else. It is your dedication that makes an employer want to keep you, not because a union dictated it.

 

[akhenaten]

Again, health insurance and pensions are BENEFITS... not required. Companies offer them to attract the better employees.

If two companies doing the same business both have openings and one offers health insurance & pensions and the other doesn't, who do you want to work for?

What happened is unions (through negotiation) made benefits happen at one company. In order for other companies to attract the better workers, they had to offer that also.

Let's say for the sake of this argument that Verizon says they are paying $0 in health care and $0 in retirement... it's ALL on the workers. Good for the company, right? They 'save' money. BUT, the workers will be flocking out the door for other jobs that DO offer the benefits. No workers = no product = no business.

But at the same time, if Verizon says they will pay 100% of healthcare and an extra 10% in retirement funds, it can't sustain that money outlay. Too much money outflow = no money to pay workers = layoffs.

There is a middle ground though. That's where the union and the company need to get together and COMPROMISE. Neither should hold the other hostage. Kind of sounds like the recent budget debate in Congress, huh.

I agree that there needs to compromise... I also stated that above too!!

 

[akhenaten]

I am currently in a union...but only because I essentially didn't have a choice (I'm a teacher). We have been working without a contract for over a year. My union is "upset" with me because I do more than my contract requires of me, without demanding anything in return. Pretty soon, we are expected to go to "work to rule" which means that I am not allowed to come in early or stay late or do anything extra for my students. If the union strikes, I will cross the picket line. I was hired to do a job, and I am going to do it. My students and the community depends on me to do it.

Personally, I think unions set up a confrontational "us" vs "them" scenario, no matter what type of business they're in. If only the workers and the management could work together to reach a common goal, I think a lot more people would be happy.

Tink... I think that is it sad that your union may not allow you to come in early etc. Have you tried to work with your union to get things that you find important included in the contract or increased??
Don't forget the same Union has negotiated the salary and benefits you enjoy... they depend on you also!

I agree that compromise is good... but it takes two to compromise...and two to have confrontation...

 

[akhenaten]

I just did a little research. Can you tell me the difference between the Koch brothers and George Soros?
Other than their cause, of course.

This would take more time than I have now and would probably have to cross too far into the political , which we are not supposed to do.

( this thread is probably already leaning too far into that territory)

It is common knowledge that GS sponsors Move On...

I wonder how many members know that Koch Bros sponsor the Tea Party and Americans For Prosperity.... etc. ???

 

[LoveBWVVBR]

It's interesting that the air traffic controller strike is being brought up. They had a no strike clause in their contract. By defying that clause, they took a risk and lost.

To those who think being a service tech is an unskilled job, find the nearest telephone pole and begin climbing. Watch out for the electrical wires and don't fall!!

Well, since this is essentially what the management employees are doing right now, I'd say that I must not be too far off the mark. Nobody in my group had ever climbed a pole before being assigned to install/repair for strike duty. They all came back in one piece, as I said above. I did inside wiring...again, I didn't kill myself despite not having any training.

 

[LoveBWVVBR]

I think you are confusing skilled and dedicated. Jumping a fence at 2am to fix the cable is dedication, not skill. Leaving your family to go in a bucket truck after a hurricane isn't skilled work, it is dedication to your job. Taking classes and being good at your job isn't skilled work.

I don't work for Comcast, but I know how and why those little wires work. I'm not certified to operate a bucket truck, but I could be. I probably couldn't hop a fence, but then again I've never tried. I take phone calls during dinner all the time. So while I'm not entirely skilled to do the job, in a few hours I could be. My job requires several degrees. And even then, I could easily be replaced by someone else. It is your dedication that makes an employer want to keep you, not because a union dictated it.

I'll say that a big part of the reason that I left Verizon was the union. I am watching this strike with interest...I really think that this could be it for the union.

 

[LoveBWVVBR]

Ok I was going to leave this thread alone until I read this. My dh works for Comcast, which is not unionized. My dh works very hard and has a skill level that I would love to see you match. I want to see you jumping fences at 2 in the morning to get to the box in a backyard because the cable is out and have a gun pulled on you. I want to see you be in a bucket truck 2 hours after Hurricane Ike came through to get lines off the ground, leaving your family still scared and in the dark. I want you to take the 2 week classes that he has to take and pass for his raise. I want you to take phone calls during dinner cause if your repeat level is above 3% you get written up. Did I mention that if a cable box just craps out for no reason and has to be replaced that it counts as a repeat even if you didn't install it. So yeah anybody can go to Home Depot and run the wires for cable/phone/internet with a little help from the internet but it takes someone SKILLED to know how and why those little wires work. It takes someone SKILLED to work on the lines outside.

To those of you that are striking or have spouses that are striking, while my dh is not part of an union nor do we want to be, I will be thinking of you everyday that this goes on.

ETA - Nevermind. There is so much that I could say here, but it's truly not worth it. I left Verizon primarily because of the union mentality. As the poster above stated, there is a true difference between skill and dedication. If Verizon does get the unions out during this strike, I think that they will have little trouble backfilling those jobs and training the new craft workforce quickly. I'm watching with interest, that's for sure.