Verizon striking

[akhenaten]

I don't know if this has been brought up on this thread, but a recall election took place in WI yesterday, which I believe was indicative of how non-union people are understanding the impact of unions, particularly government unions.

Yep 2 Republicans were recalled!

I think too many are buying the spin being sold them about Unions and ignoring the hard fought for union benefits that we all are enjoying!

Let's look back on how workers were treated prior to Unions shall we:

*unsafe working conditions,
*limitless hours (with the threat that we have plenty of people willing to take your job, sound familiar?) ,
*child labor,
*company stores,
*coldwater flats...

I could go on and on....

The "haves" are laughing while we rip each other apart!!!

 

[Acklander]

I think class warfare is dangerous. There are a lot of variables that come into play with "haves" and "have nots", that fall outside of "business".

Sure, but with unemployment/underemployment so high. That's the one that's being shoved front in center right now. I read an article that says the next bubble to burst is student loans. Imagine - the only kids who can go to college are those who pay up front for it.

 

[akhenaten]

Sure, but with unemployment/underemployment so high. That's the one that's being shoved front in center right now. I read an article that says the next bubble to burst is student loans. Imagine - the only kids who can go to college are those who pay up front for it.

The more government gave students a hand up with loans etc. the more the schools raised tuition and fees....

I would not be surprised...

 

[undertheradar]

Yep 2 Republicans were recalled!

I think too many are buying the spin being sold them about Unions and ignoring the hard fought for union benefits that we all are enjoying!

Let's look back on how workers were treated prior to Unions shall we:

*unsafe working conditions,
*limitless hours (with the threat that we have plenty of people willing to take your job, sound familiar?) ,
*child labor,
*company stores,
*coldwater flats...

I could go on and on....

The "haves" are laughing while we rip each other apart!!!

Funny, you chose to list that Democrats won 2 seats. You left out that the Republicans retained the other 4. Looks like 2 to 1 in favor of the Republicans!

As for gains made by unions, yes, the sweatshops of old should remain in the past. But the greed of union leaders has far outpaced the realities of current economic trends. The AVERAGE worker does not receive a pension. The AVERAGE worker isn't allowed to "spike" earnings during the three years used to determine pension pay. Practices like this are what have turned the AVERAGE worker away from unions. We have firefighters here in CA living in million dollar homes, how much overtime do you think a worker based at $60k per year needs to receive to be able to maintain that lifestyle? Oue emergency services workers and local government workers(all union) are retiring at the ripe ages between 48 and 55. Many then go on to act as consultants to the departments from which they retired. This very costly practice of double-dipping is bankrupting the state. So, do we feed the poor and homeless, educate the illegal and less fortunate, provide free health
care to anyone, continue to allow the abuses of our publicly funded pensions, provide free and reduced higher education for those who have no means of paying for it? Where exactly should the money come from? Honestly, I'm not sure what is considered to be the middle class anymore, as the cost of living is so varied depending upon one's location in our country.

 

[Muushka]

Yep 2 Republicans were recalled!

I think too many are buying the spin being sold them about Unions and ignoring the hard fought for union benefits that we all are enjoying!

Let's look back on how workers were treated prior to Unions shall we:

*unsafe working conditions,
*limitless hours (with the threat that we have plenty of people willing to take your job, sound familiar?) ,
*child labor,
*company stores,
*coldwater flats...

I could go on and on....

The "haves" are laughing while we rip each other apart!!!

Buying the spin......yup, some of us are. I am by no means a "have", but there is a lot of 'spin' out there that I simply do not agree with. Tax payers in WI are realizing what unions are costing their state. And in spite of the tens of millions of dollars spent to try to defend unions, sway the voters, they did not succeed. The taxpayer won. I would not have voted for the party that supports thug unions either.

And returning to the way sweat shops were a long time ago is no defense for why unions exist. They exist today to force businesses to give people things that they either cannot afford to or choose not to give. They support a party of politics that is pro-union and once they are in office, they vote for union advances. And in turn, donate to that party. And causes that they believe in, like what just happened in WI.

This is a capitalistic society we live in (for now anyway ) If you don't like the way a company pays you, go to a different one. If you are worth what you think you are, you will get it.

And for the one who mentioned a revolt, I think you may be right.
But don't for one minute think that all of the have-nots are going to rise up against the haves.

 

[Muushka]

Funny, you chose to list that Democrats won 2 seats. You left out that the Republicans retained the other 4. Looks like 2 to 1 in favor of the Republicans!

As for gains made by unions, yes, the sweatshops of old should remain in the past. But the greed of union leaders has far outpaced the realities of current economic trends. The AVERAGE worker does not receive a pension. The AVERAGE worker isn't allowed to "spike" earnings during the three years used to determine pension pay. Practices like this are what have turned the AVERAGE worker away from unions. We have firefighters here in CA living in million dollar homes, how much overtime do you think a worker based at $60k per year needs to receive to be able to maintain that lifestyle? Oue emergency services workers and local government workers(all union) are retiring at the ripe ages between 48 and 55. Many then go on to act as consultants to the departments from which they retired. This very costly practice of double-dipping is bankrupting the state. So, do we feed the poor and homeless, educate the illegal and less fortunate, provide free health
care to anyone, continue to allow the abuses of our publicly funded pensions, provide free and reduced higher education for those who have no means of paying for it? Where exactly should the money come from? Honestly, I'm not sure what is considered to be the middle class anymore, as the cost of living is so varied depending upon one's location in our country.

I feel for you living in CA.

 

[akhenaten]

Funny, you chose to list that Democrats won 2 seats. You left out that the Republicans retained the other 4. Looks like 2 to 1 in favor of the Republicans!

Not funny at all... I was responding to a post that seemed to imply that the WI recall proved that the voters there resoundingly voted against unions... I was pointing out that 2 were recalled!

There may have been abuses but you "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater" we will all suffer if collective bargaining and unions are destroyed!

 

[Acklander]

And for the one who mentioned a revolt, I think you may be right.
But don't for one minute think that all of the have-nots are going to rise up against the haves.

You don't need everybody. Just a majority. And with every pledge thats signed by a politician who refuses to raise taxes by even one penny on millionaires, and every time you here about a major oil company who receives tax rebates while bragging about record profits, and when the have nots pay more in sales tax for a lightbulb than the company who produced it - more and more will stand up to say enough is enough.

 

[akhenaten]

This is a capitalistic society we live in (for now anyway ) If you don't like the way a company pays you, go to a different one. If you are worth what you think you are, you will get it.

And for the one who mentioned a revolt, I think you may be right.
But don't for one minute think that all of the have-nots are going to rise up against the haves.

as I said 2 were recalled so it was not a sweep...
union members and those with a different opinon than yours pay taxes also!!

We were a capitalistic society when all of the abuses I mentioned were prevalent also... then we had legislation passed that created balance!

There were always "have-nots" happy to get the scraps left them from the "haves" ....

 

[Muushka]

as I said 2 were recalled so it was not a sweep...
union members and those with a different opinon than yours pay taxes also!!

We were a capitalistic society when all of the abuses I mentioned were prevalent also... then we had legislation passed that created balance!

There were always "have-nots" happy to get the scraps left them from the "haves" ....

Yes, legislation was created. No union needed.

And of course union members pay taxes. And of course they are going to vote for people who are pro-union. They are not stupid.

Don't get me wrong. I believe that unions have had their place in this great country that we live in. But when you hear about a union preventing a division to be opened in a different state (Boeing in SC), unions demanding that people cannot be fired unless a lengthy court battle ensues, unions that are part of the government (either city, state or fed) and that they are receiving much higher salaries, much better benefits and the tax payers have to support that, well, you will indeed see a revolt.

Wait until the TSA workers get their union. You think we have problems at the airport now?

 

[akhenaten]

Yes, legislation was created. No union needed.

And of course union members pay taxes. And of course they are going to vote for people who are pro-union. They are not stupid.

Don't get me wrong. I believe that unions have had their place in this great country that we live in. But when you hear about a union preventing a division to be opened in a different state (Boeing in SC), unions demanding that people cannot be fired unless a lengthy court battle ensues, unions that are part of the government (either city, state or fed) and that they are receiving much higher salaries, much better benefits and the tax payers have to support that, well, you will indeed see a revolt.

Wait until the TSA workers get their union. You think we have problems at the airport now?

The Unions were the driving force behind the legislation... They were the motivation for the balance that we have enjoyed for many years... who is profiting from the imbalance?

So it was not a victory in Wi for "Taxpayers" as you said ... just for "some" taxpayers (and not a total victory as there were legislators recalled)

As I said the Union Members are taxpayers and pay the higher taxes for their own wages also ... they are not separate from taxpaying America as "some" want you to believe and as your semantics imply...

We should be working towards all of us being raised up... not tearing each other down..IMO!!!
As I said before the "haves" (Koch Brothers etc.) laugh as we fight amongst ourselves

 

[undertheradar]

Not funny at all... I was responding to a post that seemed to imply that the WI recall proved that the voters there resoundingly voted against unions... I was pointing out that 2 were recalled!

There may have been abuses but you "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater" we will all suffer if collective bargaining and unions are destroyed!

Question: If there are no employers, what will the unions do? Besides within union offices, how many jobs has your union created so far this year? Not new local unions, but actual newly created jobs?

 

[undertheradar]

The Unions were the driving force behind the legislation... They were the motivation for the balance that we have enjoyed for many years... who is profiting from the imbalance?

So it was not a victory in Wi for "Taxpayers" as you said ... just for "some" taxpayers (and not a total victory as there were legislators recalled)

As I said the Union Members are taxpayers and pay the higher taxes for their own wages also ... they are not separate from taxpaying America as "some" want you to believe and as your semantics imply...

We should be working towards all of us being raised up... not tearing each other down..IMO!!!
As I said before the "haves" (Koch Brothers etc.) laugh as we fight amongst ourselves

Please, I've asked this multiple times and not a single union employee involved in this strike has answered. How much compensation do your union leaders receive each year? Your leaders are the "haves."

 

[LoveBWVVBR]

I'm still cracking up about how "skilled" the majority of these union jobs at Verizon are. Would I want to be a lineman w/o training? No, but then again, the training involved is not rocket science and doesn't take all that long. Heck, I did inside wiring (inside the CO) for my last strike duty assignment and I had no prior training. Amazing Some of my group was assigned to work install and repair duty, and they all returned alive and in one piece. Sorry, but if the actual SKILLED jobs of air traffic controllers could be replaced, the not-so-skilled "skilled" union jobs at Verizon could be backfilled in short order with little to no training necessary for most jobs.

 

[akhenaten]

Please, I've asked this multiple times and not a single union employee involved in this strike has answered. How much compensation do your union leaders receive each year? Your leaders are the "haves."

I am not in a Union, so I can't tell you that...
however the real haves are corporate executives with golden parachutes who go from one failing co. to another ( I know someone personally who has done this)

The corporate executive who flies to the other coast each week for work
( lives east coast works west) on the company $$$ ( know them also)

And both examples I just mentioned work in communications...

sorry but corporations are still the much , much bigger "haves" than any Union leader...

Verizon is making profits... they are just taking advantage of the current political climate to squeeze the union or eliminate it so they can make even bigger profits!

 

[Acklander]

Question: If there are no employers, what will the unions do? Besides within union offices, how many jobs has your union created so far this year? Not new local unions, but actual newly created jobs?

And where would employers be without employees? And where would companies be without customers?

And where are all the jobs the "job creators" produced??? You know, all those jobs that were going to trickle down to the little people with the tax cuts over the last 30 years???

 

[akhenaten]

Question: If there are no employers, what will the unions do? Besides within union offices, how many jobs has your union created so far this year? Not new local unions, but actual newly created jobs?

As I have mention.. there needs to be balance and co-operation
something that the current dig your heels in and throw stones at the opponent climate in our country right now is sorely missing.

We are tearing ourselves apart!

A house divided against itself shall not stand...

An employer needs workers , as much as workers need an employer...

 

[ccgirl]

Yes, legislation was created. No union needed.

And of course union members pay taxes. And of course they are going to vote for people who are pro-union. They are not stupid.

Don't get me wrong. I believe that unions have had their place in this great country that we live in. But when you hear about a union preventing a division to be opened in a different state (Boeing in SC), unions demanding that people cannot be fired unless a lengthy court battle ensues, unions that are part of the government (either city, state or fed) and that they are receiving much higher salaries, much better benefits and the tax payers have to support that, well, you will indeed see a revolt.

Wait until the TSA workers get their union. You think we have problems at the airport now?:eek:

I agree. The so called bad seeds get protected and can't just be fired. And, then their raises would just happen whether they were good performers or not. Personally, I cannot fathom giving/getting raises for people not performing to their expectations but apparently some people can. You can't perform up to your job description = bye bye there are many others waiting to do it.

 

[akhenaten]

And where would employers be without employees? And where would companies be without customers?

And where are all the jobs the "job creators" produced??? You know, all those jobs that were going to trickle down to the little people with the tax cuts over the last 30 years???

There will be no customers in the US soon... at the rate we are going...

But the corporations don't care ..they are global now...

These are interesting times to say the least..

 

[undertheradar]

I am not in a Union, so I can't tell you that...
however the real haves are corporate executives with golden parachutes who go from one failing co. to another ( I know someone personally who has done this)

The corporate executive who flies to the other coast each week for work
( lives east coast works west) on the company $$$ ( know them also)

And both examples I just mentioned work in communications...

sorry but corporations are still the much , much bigger "haves" than any Union leader...

Verizon is making profits... they are just taking advantage of the current political climate to squeeze the union or eliminate it so they can make even bigger profits!

Again, these are two very different things. The corporate executives answer to the investors. Who do the union leaders answer to? The strikers are in a wage group earning between $46,800 - $67,600, the union president for IBEW was given total compensation of $375,767 last year, exactly how isn't he a "have?" Perhaps if the union leadership were to be compensated less there would be better bargaining room?

Quick update: Grocery workers in parts of Southern California are going to take a strike vote next week. If you followed the last strike they had, it didn't end too well. Record levels of unemployment and union leadership advises a strike.