vent: Hall of Presidents incites my gay rage

[lillielil]

Well then I'm sure you must despise HOP because it depicts Thomas Jefferson as one of our greatest presidents - who just happened to be a slave owner. Thomnas Jefferson, who wrote the Declaration of Independence declaring all men equal. In my opinion, this is worse and more hypocritical than what Bush says.

I'm no great Jefferson fan, but I do acknowledge that his words need to be read in the context of their era. Even then there were voices of dissent (Adams, I'm looking at you); there wasn't exactly a consensus among those in power (let alone the nation... but you already know what I think about the majority opinion) about how those words should be interpreted. Yes, the phrase "all men" reeks of hypocracy. Yes, it applies only to white land owners. That stinks. I'd like to think, however, that given the amount of time that has passed we'd be able to realize that "all" really does mean all. I still feel excluded, and that's not a very nice feeling.

 

[SpaceAce]

Do we feel it appopriate to be kissing during the Hall of Presidents?
Don't assume my position just because I asked the question please; I asked a question - did not make a statement.

 

[lillielil]

Do we feel it appopriate to be kissing during the Hall of Presidents?
Don't assume my position just because I asked the question please; I asked a question - did not make a statement.

Yep.

 

[hematite153]

Do we feel it appopriate to be kissing during the Hall of Presidents?
Don't assume my position just because I asked the question please; I asked a question - did not make a statement.

I've seen lots of others doing it!

For myself, whether or not I would consider it and/or get offended by someone else doing it depends on the intensity.

A kiss is fine--especially in a dark theatre.

The guy who took kissing to the point where he had his hand up his girlfriend's tank top visibly groping her breast while grinding against her hip, while in line (directly in front of us) for Soarin' likely would have bothered me at HOP too.

 

[sotoalf]

As a gay man, serious student of American history, and frequent Disney visitor, I agree with lillielil: most of HOP is schlock. Why make up lines for Lincoln when Lincoln himself -- one of our great prose writers -- had plenty of great lines for the occasion? Jefferson's hypocrisy bothers me, but he's too complicated a figure to dismiss; and accepting the consequences of history has nothing to with one's personal feelings.

The only part of the show that moves me is the presidential roll call.

 

[SpaceAce]

I wish they would choose to not have the current President speak, regardless of which party they are from. It should be about the dignity of the Office of President; I think we lose that when people's opinions about the current President affect how they feel about the attraction. Why not stick to Presidents that have undoubted historical importance. {Importance does not mean that we agree with how they ran their lives, including owning slaves, which is obviously very wrong.} So I would rather hear from Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, Franklin Roosevelt even. Anyone agree? In the scheme of things, will Bush or Clinton be remembered for any real great contribution? I don't think so.

 

[Magpie]

I wish they would choose to not have the current President speak, regardless of which party they are from. It should be about the dignity of the Office of President; I think we lose that when people's opinions about the current President affect how they feel about the attraction. Why not stick to Presidents that have undoubted historical importance. {Importance does not mean that we agree with how they ran their lives, including owning slaves, which is obviously very wrong.} So I would rather hear from Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, Franklin Roosevelt even. Anyone agree? In the scheme of things, will Bush or Clinton be remembered for any real great contribution? I don't think so.

I felt the same way about Reagan, yet he was practically canonized when he died. So, I'm sure a decade or two will impart the same rosy glow to Clinton and Bush. People are already getting nostalgic about the pre-War, fiscally-better, Clinton years. "Ah... the good old nineties... We were so innocent back then!"

 

[RickinNYC]

It just bothers me that EVERYTHING needs to be politicised (sp?). I mean, Pirates of the Carribbean could offend the Femininist Movement because of the way the women are presented as property. And come to think of it, the whole attraction glorifies piracy - robbing, murder, death and destruction. But as a WDW attraction, you can appreciate the artistic achievements. Thats how the HOP should be. Visit it and appreciate it for what it is. It's NOT trying to make a statemernt, so let's not be offended by it. Let's all lighten up a bit.

I find two things very very interesting. The first of which is how you seem to be making as much of a political statement as the OP. The second and more enlightening is your rather consistent interest in all things gay.

This isn't the first thread you've joined, discussing anything remotely homosexual, in which you've gone under the guise of not trying to offend, although you've been rather successful doing so. And it's not the first gay themed topic in which you repeatedly come back to express your point.

Reminds me of Shakespeare.

 

[TuckandStuiesMom]

I wish they would choose to not have the current President speak, regardless of which party they are from. It should be about the dignity of the Office of President; I think we lose that when people's opinions about the current President affect how they feel about the attraction. Why not stick to Presidents that have undoubted historical importance. {Importance does not mean that we agree with how they ran their lives, including owning slaves, which is obviously very wrong.} So I would rather hear from Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, Franklin Roosevelt even. Anyone agree? In the scheme of things, will Bush or Clinton be remembered for any real great contribution? I don't think so.

That is a GREAT idea -- I haven't been in the hall of presidents since my first WDW visit during the Reagan administration when my Dad tricked me into going. I was absolutely furious at the time but it totally was one of the high-points of the trip for him.
(Funny how your perspective changes on what's important after almost 30 years. My father and I really didn't get along very well at all -- but he was an absolutely incredible grand-dad. I doubt very much that we would ever have discovered WDW w/o him... I wish now we could have had time to get past our differences before he died.)

 

[skyhawk]

I find two things very very interesting. The first of which is how you seem to be making as much of a political statement as the OP. The second and more enlightening is your rather consistent interest in all things gay.

This isn't the first thread you've joined, discussing anything remotely homosexual, in which you've gone under the guise of not trying to offend, although you've been rather successful doing so. And it's not the first gay themed topic in which you repeatedly come back to express your point.

Reminds me of Shakespeare.

Well, I'm rather impressed that you feel it important to check my history of postings. If you did, then you undoubtedly know that the vast majority of my postings have to do with the Disney Cruise Line, theme park attractions, the disney dining plan, the resorts, transportation, the Tiki Birds, etc. I'm sure you could give me the percentages of each topic, and all my postings dealing with homosexuality are probably extremely low. I am not here trying to make political statements, although it seems you have discovered my leanings based upon your detective work.

I am not homosexual. I have homosexual friends, and I am sympathetic to their situation - even though your reasoning seems to imply I am not. If it appears that I go out of my way to say I am not making a political statement, perhaps it is the case becasue if I do come in here hoping to have a mature and meaningful dialogue, I would probably be blasted and lampooned if I came out and said I was a conservative - even before I was able to make a statement. So perhaps I do go overboard in procaliming my political neutrality - because I wouldn't be treated fairly otherwise. I know from experience when I express my conservative leanings, and my support of President Bush, I am ridiculed. Is this what I am to expect from people that preach respect and tolerance?

I dislike President Clinton and President Carter - yet I do not think they should be exluded from the Hall of Presidents, nor should they be banned from making speaches in HOP if the attraction's creators thought it appropriate. It is a show based upon the presidents - the good ones and the bad ones. Can't we enjoy it for that? That is the only point I am trying to make. If you know my posting history, you know I have said this several times - but obviously you don't believe me. I don't believe the HOP, or any attraction, should be a political focal point - liberal or conservative.

I'm sure this post will get misinterpreted somehow, and I will get flamed for it. If I said I am just trying to have a dialogue, someone will think I have a secret agenda, and I am a member of the homophobic right wing conspiracy. So be it. I stated my postition, and all I wanted was to talk. If you can't uinderstand or appreciate my views, then this will be my last post on this thread. I would say I would like to remain friends and engage in conversation, but Rick seems to know what I am thinking more than I do.

 

[2moms]

"Mature and meaningful conversation"?! I think you came into this thread to post your conservative views hoping someone will dispute you knowing that the majority GLBT's are most likely not going to share your ideals. While I cannot speak for the OP, I'm pretty sure she was just trying to express her frustration over the president's double talk. As far as having an "agenda", do you? You're the one who keeps bringing it up.
BTW, let me say that I am not a conservative. I do, however have conservative friends and am sympathetic to their (and your) situation.

 

[skyhawk]

"Mature and meaningful conversation"?! I think you came into this thread to post your conservative views hoping someone will dispute you knowing that the majority GLBT's are most likely not going to share your ideals. While I cannot speak for the OP, I'm pretty sure she was just trying to express her frustration over the president's double talk. As far as having an "agenda", do you? You're the one who keeps bringing it up.
BTW, let me say that I am not a conservative. I do, however have conservative friends and am sympathetic to their (and your) situation.

So instead of engaging in a conversation, you feel the need to mock what I say. If you read back on my posts, I apologized for using the word agenda.

 

[lillielil]

"Mature and meaningful conversation"?! I think you came into this thread to post your conservative views hoping someone will dispute you knowing that the majority GLBT's are most likely not going to share your ideals. While I cannot speak for the OP, I'm pretty sure she was just trying to express her frustration over the president's double talk. As far as having an "agenda", do you? You're the one who keeps bringing it up.
BTW, let me say that I am not a conservative. I do, however have conservative friends and am sympathetic to their (and your) situation.

You got it. Hence the title of this thread - "vent:..." It's just that. I don't like having a good vent ruined by someone telling me my feelings aren't valid, and that I shouldn't feel the way I do.

 

[2moms]

Oh PUH-LEEZE Skyhawk. I think you came into this thread and did exactly what you set out to do, agenda or no agenda. You completely missed the mark on what the OP was trying to say, and if you are truly "sympathetic to our situation", you should have understood where the OP was coming from. You posted in order to incite a negative response by others on this thread, act persecuted by others for disagreeing with you, and further demean us by suggesting that we're incapable of carrying on a mature and meaningful dialogue.

 

[NYBlue1]

Heres the deal skyhawk, my guess you dont and never have had to deal with any kind of prejudice that is life effecting. That being the case you cant possibly understand anything that we speak of here when it comes to things that effect us in our day to day life.

I will give you the benifit of the doubt that you come and peace and mean no harm. If thats the case you would take the time to read what people are trying to explain to you , try to understand what it feels like to not be considered just like everyone else and mocked and legislated against for who you love and care about.

Think , stop getting defensive and just think what it may feel like to not be considered as good as, or as equal to those around you, Think what it must feel like to be in a loving relationship with a partner for 10 20 30 40 plus years and never be allowed to marry but its a-ok for anybody thats straight to get married in vegas ala britney spears for the fun of it. Think , just think.

 

[RickinNYC]

Well, I'm rather impressed that you feel it important to check my history of postings. If you did, then you undoubtedly know that the vast majority of my postings have to do with the Disney Cruise Line, theme park attractions, the disney dining plan, the resorts, transportation, the Tiki Birds, etc. I'm sure you could give me the percentages of each topic, and all my postings dealing with homosexuality are probably extremely low. I am not here trying to make political statements, although it seems you have discovered my leanings based upon your detective work.

I am not homosexual. I have homosexual friends, and I am sympathetic to their situation - even though your reasoning seems to imply I am not. If it appears that I go out of my way to say I am not making a political statement, perhaps it is the case becasue if I do come in here hoping to have a mature and meaningful dialogue, I would probably be blasted and lampooned if I came out and said I was a conservative - even before I was able to make a statement. So perhaps I do go overboard in procaliming my political neutrality - because I wouldn't be treated fairly otherwise. I know from experience when I express my conservative leanings, and my support of President Bush, I am ridiculed. Is this what I am to expect from people that preach respect and tolerance?

I dislike President Clinton and President Carter - yet I do not think they should be exluded from the Hall of Presidents, nor should they be banned from making speaches in HOP if the attraction's creators thought it appropriate. It is a show based upon the presidents - the good ones and the bad ones. Can't we enjoy it for that? That is the only point I am trying to make. If you know my posting history, you know I have said this several times - but obviously you don't believe me. I don't believe the HOP, or any attraction, should be a political focal point - liberal or conservative.

I'm sure this post will get misinterpreted somehow, and I will get flamed for it. If I said I am just trying to have a dialogue, someone will think I have a secret agenda, and I am a member of the homophobic right wing conspiracy. So be it. I stated my postition, and all I wanted was to talk. If you can't uinderstand or appreciate my views, then this will be my last post on this thread. I would say I would like to remain friends and engage in conversation, but Rick seems to know what I am thinking more than I do.

I'm afraid your own concept of conspiracy, i.e. that I bothered to search your posts, is off the mark. YOU AND I had a few exchanges quite a while ago. And I do recall your posts and they were by no means "sympathetic", rather they were inflammatory.

As for your gay friends, I'm sorry but that rings so much of the 60's, "some of my best friends are black." It doesn't hold any water at all.

And once again, much like the last time you posted on a gay/lesbian topic, you rely on the infamous "you all aren't tolerent of intolerance" schtick. Please. Stop trying to make a mockery of tolerance.

You came here to strike up a debate. As a mod, I am going to ask you to be civil and NOT a pot stirrer.

Thanks and have a magical day.

 

[skyhawk]

OK - I honestly did not come in to offend - I enjoy conversation and debate...and perhaps I became over zealous (sp?). If that's the case, I sincerely apologize - and please believe that I am sincere. I know that when something is written, the person reading has a different perspective that the person writing...and that leads to disagreement of the intent of what was said.

I will leave it at that, but please believe I did not intend to stir anger. Please accept my apology, and if you don't then there is really nothing else I can say, I will no longer post on this thread - but peace to all - honest.