VENT: GS related

[ChrisLei]

Boy, what was supposed to be a wonderful evening with the girl scouts learning about the cultures, foods and people of other countries with other troops in our service unit really turned into the most stressful scouting day of my life!

I have been a troop leader for the past 3 years. I have always had a wonderful time. We started off with a group of 9 as Daisys, then added 5 girls to the troop last year, and this year have added an additional 4. Our reasoning, the shame that there are not enough Girl Scout leaders and we want to give a few girls the opportunity to learn about the joy of girl scouting. That may have been a mistake.

We have a little girl in the troop, to protect her identity I will call her Donna. Donna has major behavioral issues. She has a really hard time following directions, she is in her own little world, does not like working with a group, and actually act like much younger than what she is. She has displayed some disturbing behavior at meetings such as eating out of garbage cans, and bringing toys to meetings and talking to us through it. I had politely inquired to her mom if Donna was "classified", and she shockingly replied no, only her oldest is. She actually said that Donna is her "normal child". I spoke to her mom and explained some of the behavior she has been displaying. She said she will have a talk with her.

Yesterday at Thinking Day, she brought my coleaders and I to the end of our rope. She was running around and doing her own thing. Three times we had to bring her back into the room when she decided she wanted to wonder the school grounds, taking things from the displays, she refused to partake in the activities and started to harrass her sister (who is special needs) to the point where she was hitting her and interrupting her while she was trying to listen to the presentations. She went and locked her arms around her sister's legs and refused to return to where our troop was sitting. I had to literally carry her away from her sister and bring her back to our troop. Then she went on to get up and go back to where her sister was at. My coleader had to take her outside to have a talk with her.

We don't know what to do. The 3 of us really don't think we can go on with Donna in the troop. I know I do not look forward to meetings. I am actually dreading the next girl scout event...which is next weekend! We never before needed to stress out over any of our girls. It has gotten to the point where I am seriously contemplating making this my last year leading the troop even though it breaks my heart. There are 6 girls who are not enjoying the meetings because of the fact we have to constantly stop what we are doind in order to redirect Donna.

I am at loss.

 

[Eeyore'sthebest]

Require the mother to stay through the meetings and every event. I have one girl that is a perfect angel when her mom is present. When mom leaves, she is rude, interrupts, gets up and leaves, teases the other girls, etc. Her mom doesn't mind staying (I think she knows how she behaves) so I just invite her to everything.
I think in your extreme case you should make it mandatory!

Good luck with everything and thanks for being such a great girl scout yourself!

 

[MushyMushy]

I agree with Eeyore'sthebest. In fact, all the parents stay at all the scout meetings here. That's just the way it's done. It's required through the BS, and most mothers just do it with the GS.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

You need to go to your council for starters. Protect your behind. Tell council what you plan on saying and also they will give you their rules and some tips hopefully.

Then you inform the mother you are requiring her to stay at the meetings.

 

[LisaNJ25]

You need to go to your council for starters. Protect your behind. Tell council what you plan on saying and also they will give you their rules and some tips hopefully.

Then you inform the mother you are requiring her to stay at the meetings.

This is what I would do also.. also have the mother attend all trips.

 

[tkd lisa]

Jumping on the bandwagon.

My DD was that little girl (but I knew she had issues), and I volunteered to stay. Her first leader had me stay outside the meeting room, the later leaders had me in the room. That way if DD was behaving, she could be a part of the normal meeting. If not, I dealt with her, leaving the leaders to continue with the meeting.

DD didn't start scouting until she was a junior. It sounds like this is a 2nd year brownie, or a 2nd grader? A lot of special needs kids really can't handle themselves at that age. It took DD til 6th grade to be able to handle an evening meeting (when her meds wore off) without the occasional disruption.

 

[FayeW]

Denial ain't just a river in Egypt!

That mother is in serious denial over this child. My daughter exhibited the same type of behaviour during her one and only year in Sparks. But she was 5 at the time, and was not diaganosed with ADHD until a year later. It really is a shame because she has missed out on so much, due to her inability to behave appropriately. Even at 12, I dread sleepovers unless it is just a couple of kids, at homes where everyone knows her well. I worry about her being ostracized by kids she may not know well at these functions.

I never believed in punishing the other kids by insisting my child remain in programs where she clearly could not participate in an appropriate manner. I felt it wasn't fair to the other parents who paid good money for the art, swimming or gymnastic lessons if my child created an environment where the others couldn't learn.

 

[clh2]

I had a girl in my troop pretty much like this, except a little different circumstance. It never got any better, and this year, my troop isn't even formed yet...I got that burned out, couple of other issues too.

My girl, I'll call Alex. I took over the troop as the girls bridged to Jrs. The 2 prior leaders pretty much bailed, becuase of this girl.

Alex's mom would never stay at the meetings, because Alex needed to "be away from her mom." I got stuck with a girl would would spend the first 30 minutes of a meeting crying - because she missed her mom. My coleader would do nothing to help get the meeting going - nor would she help this girl.

We went camping one night at the local council campground. (It was indoor sleeping, I really don't camp well.) This time her mom was there, since I needed the proper adult coverage. We were doing a campfire about 9pm, in the dark. Alex is running wild in the immediate vicinity of the campfire. I tried several times to ask nicely for her to stop, her mom does NOTHING. Even when Alex was running with a marshmellow roasting fork, her mom got mad at me for speaking to her about it. The mom said she always does that when the family goes camping. HELLO MOM - if she pokes out an eye during a family camping event - I am not involved, nor would I be liable. I really had to get abrupt with the mom about this, because as the leader, I was responsible for all girls on this outing.

I feel your pain. Been there done that. And now our troop may be disbanding in part because of it. Alex is not emotionally able to, or just can't comprehend directions, and I can't find things to do that the rest of the girls are OK with, that this girl can do too, where noone gets bored. Alex is clearly a couple of years behind the rest of the girls in the troop.

Talk to your council, and see what they say about excluding this girl from future troop activities. They will try to talk you out of it, no doubt, but then threaten to leave the troop. They would much rather lose 1 girl than a whole troop.

 

[VirtuallyMe]

I've had several girls with special needs of varrious degrees- throughout my 10 years as a leader. Each girl was initially treated just like all the rest until we found what adaptations needed to be made...

I found the girls with emotional and/or behavioral problems to be the hardest to deal with as a leader and for the other girls. Some just required frequent redirection and the occaisional discussion with mom/dad present and the behaviors would be okay for a while. Others I knew had a limit to what they could deal with and for those girls I informed the parents that they needed to attend, send someone to attend with the girl, or be ready to come quickly when called (for local meetings/events only). Some would baulk at these limits but I frequently had 15 or more girls in a troop and could not spend as much time with one girl at the expense of all the rest.

I'm a mom of a son with special needs and DH was his den leader and pack leader in cub scouts so that he could participate. Of course we ended up with most of the rest of the boys who didn't quite fit in in our troop- but it worked well.

I think the advice you have gotten is good- let your membership specialist and service unit manager know what is going on- so that they will be aware of any issues so when you talk more to the mom they are farwarned... Also arrange to have a meeting with the mom- keep it casual at first- and just let her know that the problems were there- perhaps you can get the sister's troop leader to also help you- since the girl in your troop was also disrupting her troop- it would be someone known to the mom and she could be supportive to both of you.

I would also stress that you make sure when you are discussing this with council staff/ SU Manager/ your coleaders/ the leader of the other troop(btw it shouldn't be discussed with anyone else) that your daughters and their's are not around to over hear.

Some of these kids are just difficult to handle- and I understand from a parents perspective wanting everything for your kids that all the other kids get to do- but reality is that some activities can NOT be adapted to be Just like the other kids- you can work as best you can- but in the end you have to look at the needs of all the girls.

This little girl sounds like she needs a smaller troop where she could get a little more attention and lots more input from her mom- I suspect that the mom uses this activity as a get away for herself- too...

Good luck and if you want to discuss this any further I'm usually on each day- sometimes way to much lol... Because of my background my troops have typically been the "place" for any kids with special needs- I'm also a psychiatric nurse- so have some training in that area too. I've had girls with minor problems like I mentioned that were fairly easily managed, some with severe problems whose parents were so supportive and the girls just pleasent for the others to be around that our neurotypical girls went out of their way to help them, I've also had some who although they were "needy" and required more attention as a leader they didn't cause much disruption but the girls had a difficult time dealing with the girls, And I've had the parents who felt there was absolutely nothing wrong with their child, felt their child never did anything wrong, and pretty much refused to assist anytime we asked. Unfortunately for the girls in the last group- because their parents outright shut down of any communication probably lead to their daughter's isolation in all areas of their lives- I still think about some of those girls and wish there was more I could do but there is only so much you can do...

Also remember that the tagling my be for Every Girl Everywhere- but it doesn't mean that Every troop is for Every girl... and there are other troops out there- or the girl can be a Juliette and participate with mom there in SU and council activities...

 

[agnes!]

I'm with MM. Talk to council & protect your behind. Haha, just thought of something...if the mother refuses to stay, things aren't working out & Council tries to require you to keep the child in your troop, require THEM to send someone to help. Or you're out of there.

Since you've been in GS for a whille, you must know the other troop leaders in your unit, someone must have run into this before & have some advice. Different councils, units sometimes seem to run things a little bit differently.

Require mother to STAY at ALL meetings, overnights, campouts, special events from now on. If Mom can't attend, the girl does NOT attend either.

Some parents seem to regard activities like this as (somewhat) 'free' babysitting. I've seen it happen with churches' "Bible Camps", etc...they don't help, they make few or no contributions of any kind. In my DD's old troop(Brownies, Juniors) ALL parents were required to have a job. The leader(I was kind of an assistant leader one year and one year I WAS the troop leader) would have a sign-up sheet at the beginning of the year with all the various parent 'jobs' (cookie mom, thinking day, GS Sunday, Juliette Lowe Day, Bridging Ceremony, a meeting helper- each mom would sign up for at least one meeting, etc). It was just expected that a parent from each family would sign up for at least one 'job'.

It's not fair that EVERYONE else connected with the troop - the other parents, the leadership and especially THE OTHER GIRLS - are having their GS experience somewhat ruined because of this one girl. In any talks you have with Council, that might be a direction you want to go...that everyone else's GS experience is being heavily impacted because of the behavioral/parenting issues this girl AND her family have. I would strongly suggest that when you meet with Council that any other adults heavily involved in the troop attend as well(co-leaders, a parent who was at the World Fiasco Day , etc.) That way Council can see that it's a serious situation and not just a troop leader wanted to perhaps duck out on her responsibilities.

I feel your pain. "Hi, my name is agnes! & I've been a GS troop leader."

agnes!

 

[Mickey'sfriend]

UGh!! As a former GS leader, go to your neighborhood and/or council to see how you should handle this. I'm sure you are not the first leader in your area to encounter such a kid. Do you have meetings with the other leaders in your area?? If so, this might be a good time to get the input from the neighborhood or council leaders in your area.

 

[ChrisLei]

Since I was going to be out of town and because I didn't want to wait too long before explaining to her what exactly happened at Thinking Day, I wrote her an email Friday evening. I also wrote to our service unit leader. I have not recieved any responses from either. I do know the service unit leader did read it because I got a return receipt. But no answer. I did speak to the troop leader of the troop of the sister, who also happens to be my school liason, back in November and she told me she would get back to me. She never did. I actually called her last week and told her that I really needed to speak to her and she never called me back. I am sure she knew the reason why I was calling her. I saw her at Thinking Day and she saw everything that was going on and not a peep.

Unfortunately I can't ask the mother to attend the meetings with her daughter because she has no one to watch her other 2 children who would definitely complicated the meetings even further.

 

[agnes!]

Wow...your leadership team is between a rock & a hard place then. Mom CAN'T attend meetings, Service Unit Leader not responding to inquiries, other troop leader not reponding to pleas...yikes.
I think it's time for you to contact your Council directly. Send them an e-mail, also call them. Running a troop should be fun for the leader, not something that fills you with dread. If having this girl participate is untenable and the team is ready to quit over this issue, this is serious. There has to be some way for you to find a troop or situation that will work out better for this girl.

Btw, I went back and read your OP. You're experienced, this isn't your first-ever troop. After all, you've been leading for 3 years, I can tell that you are in anguish over what to do. We had one girl when my DD was a Brownie who wasn't quite a good fit, but it was sort of working...I never had to face a decision like this.

There's a big difference, crowd-management-wise, between 14 & 18 girls in a troop, even if they are all perfect angels. Now you have this little girl who has some kind of issues that the mom seems totally unaware of.

Good luck - I'll be thinking good thoughts for you.
agnes!

 

[VirtuallyMe]

Contact Council tomorrow- tell them what is going on- request that a staff member attend your next meeting as an observer...

List out everything as factually as you can- meaning keep it to just the facts no opinions/emotion-

Have your assistant leaders make lists too- and communicate with each other as everything is going on...

I do feel sorry for the little girl- her mom is obviously in denial- her older dd my have a more severe disability but by having a diagnosis she is probably getting help. The clueless mom- may truely feel that her little darling is quite normal when she compares her to her sister. She may look at her with rose colored glasses as a defense mechanism... (as a mom I know there is only so much you feel you can handle at times.)

If mom can not be at the meetings and the girl can not participate/function without basically having a 1:1 you could look for an older girl to come to your meetings to be her buddy ( may want to line up a troop who alternate- maybe even send two girls to each of your meeting at a time lol- that way they can tag team each other with the girl and help you out with your girls too), or ask the mom if there is someone else available to help... where is dad? grandmothers? aunts/uncles? older cousins? etc...

Wonder what sort of behavior the other two have- maybe older Girl Scouts could assist by watching the younger siblings while mom attends with her daughter...

Just throwing out some more ideas here...

 

[Poohnatic]

Carmen,

I'm not a GS leader but I wanted to give you a for doing so much for your girls. I was involved in GS for six years as a kid. Now that my boys are cub scouts and my DH and I are in leadership roles, I have to give you GS leaders a hearty , as we have parents attending the meetings with our kids.

My older son is on the autism spectrum, and the reason why we haven't done activities with either son until this year is because I did not want to unleash him on others. I know he's a handful some days. Heck, my younger son is now in cooking school and it's a foreign concept to be told I can leave him there.

As the parent of a special needs child, I don't think the request to stay with the daughter is out of line. Explain that you would like all girls to have the opportunity to complete the planned activity, but you're having difficulty in doing so as Donna needs more attention than the rest of the girls. Would she stay with Donna to make sure that Donna has the best experience she can possibly get out of Girl Scouting?

I wish you the best outcome of this. My son is in scouting because my DH is there with him all the time. He's about to move up to Boy Scouts and they've had some serious conversations about what that entails.

I don't think my son is capable of being responsible and mature in a group without major adult intervention. He could surprise me, but we've been quite honest with him that we won't allow him to behave in a poor manner and stay in scouts. We look at it as what is best for the group, not what's best for just my child.

Suzanne

Suzanne

 

[Caradana]

Okay, I know I'm living outside the American cultural mainstream when I clicked on this thread expecting to see complaints about (GS) Goldman Sachs. I really need to mentally move past the stock market.