VDH - Resale and Use Restrictions Legal in CA?

[Sandisw]

The interesting thing in the scenario being discussed is that, in addition to only being able to use their points at RR, our hypothetical 100% resale ownership cohort actually not only has a 4-month booking advantage, they only effectively have a 4-month booking window in total, when all eligible direct owners from all other BVTC resorts are free to book at seven months.

Exaclty.. and because we are talking legal here, thst is 3 extra months then what we must be given before any exchanges can happen

I get it makes restricted points difficult to use for anyone not booking when they can..but that is the reason these points won’t work for everyone.

Everything I can find and have read is that the laws and contracts relate to owners of that resort and that can’t be changed based on how you buy your contract.

It’s why they can’t give direct owners a 4 month advance and resale owners only one for home resort..but trading out is only guided in CA by the agreement with the developer.

Even with 100% resale, no owner can be shut out of their home resort if booking in the window.

 

[tjkraz]

Without the resale restrictions, even if your home resort is booked out, you can always book somewhere, even if it's not the resort you want, and/or timeframe you want, but at least you can book something and use your points. Now, it's possible to be locked out completely.

It might be mathematically possible to get blocked entirely, but in practice it's very unlikely. What is more likely to happen is that options disappear faster.

With unrestricted points, if I want to book a studio for early December on relatively short notice, perhaps the options are limited to SSR and OKW. Maybe I even have to compromise and book a One Bedroom if all of the studios are gone.

With restricted points, there may be no villas available in any size for the first 2 weeks of December. But that doesn't mean the owner has been disenfranchised. There are probably still villas of some size available later in December...or in January...or in February. Eventually the owner may run into point expiration dates which limit their ability to use. But that doesn't change the fact that the member had the full 11 months to book--including 4 months priority AND 8 months to bank the points--yet perhaps waited too long to take any of those actions.

Anyone who buys a restricted contract will absolutely have to plan further out and be more flexible to avoid losing any of the points. If they choose not to do so, that's on the owner.

 

[Great3]

It might be mathematically possible to get blocked entirely, but in practice it's very unlikely. What is more likely to happen is that options disappear faster.

With unrestricted points, if I want to book a studio for early December on relatively short notice, perhaps the options are limited to SSR and OKW. Maybe I even have to compromise and book a One Bedroom if all of the studios are gone.

With restricted points, there may be no villas available in any size for the first 2 weeks of December. But that doesn't mean the owner has been disenfranchised. There are probably still villas of some size available later in December...or in January...or in February. Eventually the owner may run into point expiration dates which limit their ability to use. But that doesn't change the fact that the member had the full 11 months to book--including 4 months priority AND 8 months to bank the points--yet perhaps waited too long to take any of those actions.

Anyone who buys a restricted contract will absolutely have to plan further out and be more flexible to avoid losing any of the points. If they choose not to do so, that's on the owner.

100% agreed!!! However, we just discussing the legality aspect, and whether DVC/DVD/Disney is within their rights in regards to laws and contracts.

Great3

 

[ocdb8r1]

Even with 100% resale, no owner can be shut out of their home resort if booking in the window.

The window only applies to "exchanges"; resale owners are permitted to exchange so their window is anytime from 11months to (effectively) 2 months, which is the breakage period. I am confident failure to reserve during the Home Resort priority period does not permit DVC to lock you out of using your points.

Again, I am not arguing that BVTC doesn't have complete control over the exchange rules, I'm arguing that inventory cannot go into BVTC to permit any exchanges unless it is owned by owners able to participate in BVTC.

I will dig out the actual documentation and quote the specifics when I have some free time.

 

[Matty B13]

Again, I am not arguing that BVTC doesn't have complete control over the exchange rules, I'm arguing that inventory cannot go into BVTC to permit any exchanges unless it is owned by owners able to participate in BVTC.

I think this is the issue he is stating at the extreme chance that a restricted resort is 100% owned by resale owners. Since 100% of the points can't be "exchanged" into BVTC, then BVTC can't make any units at this resort available to owners outside the resort even if there is an exchange agreement with BVTC. The booking window doesn't matter because BVTC has no points to exchange, thus locking out all non-owners to the resort.

Granted there is almost no chance this happens though.

 

[Sandisw]

The window only applies to "exchanges"; resale owners are permitted to exchange so their window is anytime from 11months to (effectively) 2 months, which is the breakage period. I am confident failure to reserve during the Home Resort priority period does not permit DVC to lock you out of using your points.

Again, I am not arguing that BVTC doesn't have complete control over the exchange rules, I'm arguing that inventory cannot go into BVTC to permit any exchanges unless it is owned by owners able to participate in BVTC.

I will dig out the actual documentation and quote the specifics when I have some free time.

This is not quite accurate...when you book your home resort, there is no exchanging so any owner, resale or direct, can only exchange points via BVTC, when the window opens.

In terms of being locked out, not sure how that can ever happen because the right to book is always a rolling 11 months...so, if you to book today for December, and can't, but can for a January day, or a February, day or even a March, 11 months away, you have not been locked out of using your home resort...

Here is one clause from the RIV Membership Agreement that explains what our rights are for home resort bookings and applies to all points, including resale points. I am just not seeing anything here that says owners of restricted resale points will be given additional home resort priority for rooms...which, is what your suggesting has to happen if those rooms are not allowed to be booked via BVTC....it even says "DVCM cannot guarantee that a particular reservation request can be fulfilled"

The other important line is that it states that when the home resort period is over, other owners will be given the right to book rooms on a first come, first serve basis....so, currently, at 7 months, they have to open up for trades, because that is when the home resort period ends.

 

[Sandisw]

I think this is the issue he is stating at the extreme chance that a restricted resort is 100% owned by resale owners. Since 100% of the points can't be "exchanged" into BVTC, then BVTC can't make any units at this resort available to owners outside the resort even if there is an exchange agreement with BVTC. The booking window doesn't matter because BVTC has no points to exchange, thus locking out all non-owners to the resort.

Granted there is almost no chance this happens though.

I see what you are saying...except it can never be 100% resale because DVD always retains control of at least 2% of the resort, so there will always be "rooms" eligible for trades.

The only thing I can add is that the RIV condo association (and soon to be VDH) has gotten into a agreement with BVTC to allow any unreserved rooms that exist at the resort to be available to other non home resort owners at the the exchange window. It doesn't mention anything regarding type of points because points are simply a way of defining ownership.

Per the current rules, owners at other resorts are given that right to access what we, as owners, don't book....after owners at the resort are given a chance to book using a home resort booking period.

I guess what I am saying is that any unreserved room...which is what the contract says...is allowed to be booked by other owners....nothing that I can find in the DVC resort agreements specifies that anything other than availability, determines how many rooms BVTC can offer to non owners once that window opens.

But, I know others have said they have different language that I may not be seeing....

ETA: If BVTC had to legally keep rooms available beyond the home resort booking priority for points that are restricted, it would mean they are creating two different set of rules for booking at the home resort and that isn't allowed to be based on how one buys their points.

If the home resort booking period for 4 months, then all owners must be given 4 months access to all the rooms....keeping some rooms out of BVTC based on restrictions would then be creating an additional home resort booking period for those rooms... and we would end up with more owners at the home resort who would have access to rooms than the rooms actually available during an exclusive additional home resort booking window....

Here is an example: lets use 50% of the resort is owned resale. During the home resort period, 100% of owners have equal access to 100% of the rooms...at 7 months, if only 50% of the rooms are made eligible for trades, it leaves 50% of the rooms for use only accessible by owners, but keeps 100% of home resort points in the system to book them..

With more home resort points eligible to book than rooms, I think that would violate the 1:1 ratio that must be maintained for home resort points to rooms..

 

[New Mouse]

The obvious solution to the concern of an exchange imbalance is to reserve during the home resort period. During that period, no exchanges are possible, and only owners can book.

But in theory if every owner either banked or borrowed their points and tried to use their allotment at once there could be nothing available at day 1 of booking for 1/3 of membership. I'm not sure my math is right on that but the concept certainly is. The concept.of banking borrowing and trading properties relies on the fact that others are doing it opposite of you to balance out the numbers. Nothing guarantees that.

 

[Sandisw]

But in theory if every owner either banked or borrowed their points and tried to use their allotment at once there could be nothing available at day 1 of booking for 1/3 of membership. I'm not sure my math is right on that but the concept certainly is. The concept.of banking borrowing and trading properties relies on the fact that others are doing it opposite of you to balance out the numbers. Nothing guarantees that.

Which is why DVC has the ability to alter the banking/borrowing rules to maintain a balance for owners booking their home resort.

So, it is built into the system to make sure the balance works...

They also have the ability to adjust the trading window...it does not have to be at 7 months...they could make it shorter for certain resorts....and for all we know, down the line, they will...which is also what can keep things in balance.

In practice, the more restricted resale points there are, the number of rooms open at 7 months for non owners will be less because fewer owners will be eligible to trade out.

In that sense, it naturally reduces number of rooms being booked by non owners.

 

[sethschroeder]

if sufficient points at a resort with restrictions are re-sold it becomes increasingly possible

It's like 1-2% points flipping to resale on average.

In the end you can never get shut out you just might not get the date/room you want. The points a fixed and they can't create more.

 

[sethschroeder]

I think this is the issue he is stating at the extreme chance that a restricted resort is 100% owned by resale owners. Since 100% of the points can't be "exchanged" into BVTC, then BVTC can't make any units at this resort available to owners outside the resort even if there is an exchange agreement with BVTC. The booking window doesn't matter because BVTC has no points to exchange, thus locking out all non-owners to the resort.

Granted there is almost no chance this happens though.

It's makes sense though because it applies even when not 100%.

Lets say it's 20% then you can't have 50% points coming in to the resort at 7 months if the system is meant to be a trade.

You can only trade when the offer goes both ways.

Issue is I think its already broken since they added the 2nd resort because I doubt its ever been balanced about points in and out since a good portion expire.

 

[Sandisw]

It's makes sense though because it applies even when not 100%.

Lets say it's 20% then you can't have 50% points coming in to the resort at 7 months if the system is meant to be a trade.

You can only trade when the offer goes both ways.

Issue is I think its already broken since they added the 2nd resort because I doubt its ever been balanced about points in and out since a good portion expire.

Has trading every been equal though? If PVB has 4 million points and SSsr has 13 million points, then you automatically have an imbalance as fewer PVB points can trade out then trade in.

Isn’t that why the rules for exchanges don’t have to stay point neutral and BVTC can create non home resort point charts?

And, people can only trade in based on number of rooms still open..so if 20% of the rolms are open, then only 20% can be booked by non owners, correct?

 

[Matty B13]

I just wonder if DVC/BVTC has to have some accounting of all the points trading in and out of the resorts. This is where they can get into trouble if a restricted resale owner couldn't book a room, but they would have to sue to get information, so there is very little chance of this ever happening.

Also, most owners aren't power users like the people here and I'm guessing a lot of points go unused by direct owners, especially ones that bought over 10 years ago. So I really don't think this will ever be a problem.

 

[Sandisw]

I just wonder if DVC/BVTC has to have some accounting of all the points trading in and out of the resorts. This is where they can get into trouble if a restricted resale owner couldn't book a room, but they would have to sue to get information, so there is very little chance of this ever happening.

Also, most owners aren't power users like the people here and I'm guessing a lot of points go unused by direct owners, especially ones that bought over 10 years ago. So I really don't think this will ever be a problem.

Put the restrictions aside for a minute…trading in is based on one thing…open rooms that have not been booked by owners when they had the exclusive right to book.

DVC membership agreement we make as owners of the resort collectively, not as individuals, defines the rules for booking our home resorts and when the rooms not booked by us can be offered to others,

There is no language in the POS currently that allows owners of a resort to keep rooms from being offered to non owners once the priority window opens, I posted the RIV membership agreement above.

This is why home resort booking priority is what defines things. Exchanging can only can happen when owners at any resort have made the decision not to book a room on any given day…look at VGC.…very few non owners get in…doesn’t matter how many owners there can leave…they don’t and thus, not leaving means there is nothing for non owners to reserve via BVTC.

If owners don’t use their points to book a home resort when they have an exclusive right..then they have to compete with other owners..…that exists for all resorts now and always have.

If I don’t use my VGF points to book my Dec trip before 7 months, I risk the chance to use them at my home resort once other owners can book…the fact they can be used elsewhere isnt really relevant, is it, to my losing out on my home resort room.?

If I didn’t book before other owners at different resorts could, I am out of luck for a home resort booking, correct?

BVTC can not offer any room to non owners for booking until home resort owners fail to book that room.

As i shared, the FL timeshare law requires that no matter how you acquired your points, the rules for using at the home resort must be the same, and those rules can never violate the 1:1 points to room requirement.

 

[Matty B13]

BVTC can not offer any room to non owners for booking until home resort owners fail to book that room.

But since restricted resale owners of RIV & VDH are not allowed to use the BVTC, do the rules apply to them?

I know DVC will do what ever it wants, and has some good guidelines about the whole point system. Probably less confusing than other Timeshare Point Systems, just wish they had kept it simple. Right now I have 2016 restricted points, direct points, and Original 14 restricted points?????? Try explaining that to someone on the WDW busses.

 

[DonMacGregor]

But since restricted resale owners of RIV & VDH are not allowed to use the BVTC, do the rules apply to them?

I know DVC will do what ever it wants, and has some good guidelines about the whole point system. Probably less confusing than other Timeshare Point Systems, just wish they had kept it simple. Right now I have 2016 restricted points, direct points, and Original 14 restricted points?????? Try explaining that to someone on the WDW busses.

That's why I was saying that for resale owners at restricted resorts, because those resale owners can ONLY book at their home resort, and because owners of direct or unrestricted resale (grandfathered) points at other resorts can book at restricted resorts at seven months through BVTC, for resale owners their real effective booking window for anything is really only 4 months (11 to 7). That's it.

Sure, they can still book at their home resort inside 7 months, in competition with unrestricted owners trading in through BVTC, but they are potentially competing with literally millions of additional points and tens of thousands of additional owners at that time.

 

[Matty B13]

I hope this long discussion really highlights how different the resale RIV & VDH contracts are compared to the other resorts, and you really need to know what your buying and want to stay at only that resort. If not you should buy direct.

At least with the Original 14 DVC resorts, if you didn't book early you could probably get a room at SSR and wouldn't strand points.

 

[Sandisw]

But since restricted resale owners of RIV & VDH are not allowed to use the BVTC, do the rules apply to them?

I know DVC will do what ever it wants, and has some good guidelines about the whole point system. Probably less confusing than other Timeshare Point Systems, just wish they had kept it simple. Right now I have 2016 restricted points, direct points, and Original 14 restricted points?????? Try explaining that to someone on the WDW busses.

Yes, they do apply because the main rules for owning the timeshare are home resort rules…exchanging is additional.

So, when rules are made for owners at a resort, they must be the same…All owners are under the same DVC membership agreement…there is not a different one for resale owners..

That is why if they change the rules for booking rooms at the home resort …it has to apply to all rooms or it you violate the rule to keep things balanced for owners using their resort.

Now, DVC could make the change 7 months to say 5 months, at restricted resorts to give owners a longer time to book…but that has to be all or nothing…and for all we know it might happen down the line.

 

[Sandisw]

That's why I was saying that for resale owners at restricted resorts, because those resale owners can ONLY book at their home resort, and because owners of direct or unrestricted resale (grandfathered) points at other resorts can book at restricted resorts at seven months through BVTC, for resale owners their real effective booking window for anything is really only 4 months (11 to 7). That's it.

Sure, they can still book at their home resort inside 7 months, in competition with unrestricted owners trading in through BVTC, but they are potentially competing with literally millions of additional points and tens of thousands of additional owners at that time.

As an owner of direct points, though, I also am only guaranteed the right to use my points at my home resort…4 months…without having to compete against millions..which, is 3 months longer than we are guaranteed to have.

I didn’t buy my points for RIV to use elsewhere and only want them for RIV.. which means I too have to risk not being able to do that if I fail to book early in the window…and my resale and direct points are exactly the same product when it comes to home resort use and why i can’t be given different rules for each of them.

There is no question that restricted points have drawbacks because you have no other options…and anyone who buys them needs to understand that if they fail to book when they have exclusive rights, they risk having to book different dates, or rooms sizes…

What an owner of restricted points will face at the 7 month mark for booking home resort is already happening to plenty of people who get shut out of their home resorts when they don’t book early….

Having options outside the home resort is simply an additional benefit to protect against lost points, but the result is the same.…book too late in a FCFS system and you may find it hard to use your points where you own.

And, let’s be honest, even if there was a legal way for owners at a restricted resorts to have the DVC membership agreement changed to have two different home booking priorities for sets of rooms, they’d still be competing with every home resort owner for those rooms…and can still be shut out…if they don’t book early.

 

[DonMacGregor]

As an owner of direct points, though, I also am only guaranteed the right to use my points at my home resort…4 months…without having to compete against millions..which, is 3 months longer than we are guaranteed to have.

I get that. I was simply pointing it out.