Vaccine harassment

[mefordis]

I thought I read the trials won't be complete until 2023. Can they approve before the trials are complete? Do they speed them up?

 

[CdnCarrie]

Most of the posts you’re referring to are not exactly siding with the boss; most of us probably agree the boss was being a jerk. The larger point being made was of a practical nature. This kind of conflict can arise unexpectedly in a workplace and quite frankly, anybody with age, experience (and professional success) had advised that sucking it up and moving on is the right play here. Running this up the HR chain is quite frankly absurd and won’t end well for the receptionist, who by the way, is extremely expendable. And I’d love to be a fly on the wall of the employment lawyer’s office when she tries to mount a case for wrongful dismissal. (Hyperbole of course.)

But yet a combination of these things are how most of us try to gain knowledge and understanding of complex issues outside our areas of expertise. What would you suggest instead?

I think getting your information from places like the Canadian Medical Association, Health Canada and your own physician is best. That is doing research,

I know someone with a masters in microbiology working at the federal biology lab. I asked him his opinions before viewing Chris’s Sky or some other social media claptrap.
Your local public library or medical university library probably has links to good resources on Covid .

 

[CdnCarrie]

Might be a good starting off point for decent resources.
https://calgarylibrary.ca/read-learn-and-explore/digital-library/medline/
https://cumming.ucalgary.ca/cme/COVID-19-Resources

Most of the posts you’re referring to are not exactly siding with the boss; most of us probably agree the boss was being a jerk. The larger point being made was of a practical nature. This kind of conflict can arise unexpectedly in a workplace and quite frankly, anybody with age, experience (and professional success) had advised that sucking it up and moving on is the right play here. Running this up the HR chain is quite frankly absurd and won’t end well for the receptionist, who by the way, is extremely expendable. And I’d love to be a fly on the wall of the employment lawyer’s office when she tries to mount a case for wrongful dismissal. (Hyperbole of course.)

But yet a combination of these things are how most of us try to gain knowledge and understanding of complex issues outside our areas of expertise. What would you suggest instead?

 

[dez1978]

I would like to see a grading system like restaurants get from health inspections. Like a big green A if 95%+ employees are vaccinated and so on. If I knew that only had 50% of the staff at a restaurant were protected, when the vaccine is easily available and costs the person nothing, I would never eat there again.

In the current climate, that would eliminate at least 75% of the restaurants in our area. Which really is unfair to the owner, who may be pro vaccine, but is unable to find enough vaccinated people willing to work to meet such standards. As a business owner, I can want to have all my employees vaccinated and can offer all the incentives I want to make that happen. But the min I make it mandatory, I would lose a good portion of my good employees and not be able to replace them, which would mean I can't operate. As it is, restaurants are really struggling to find employees, even with big sign on bonuses and other incentives. Adding in the vaccine requirement would really be a deal breaker for many.

 

[amylevan]

My mid-sized company said early on that it would not require vaccination, HOWEVER, they are now asking that you report when/if you get vaccinated in the event that mask mandates or other social distancing requirements are based on percent vaccinated.

 

[DLgal]

I thought I read the trials won't be complete until 2023. Can they approve before the trials are complete? Do they speed them up?

The trial length doesn't have any correlation to the FDA approval process. Some trials are 10+ years long. All they are doing beyond the first 2 months (the amount of safety data required by the FDA) is observing the people and seeing how long the vaccine protection lasts (or in the case of a drug, that the drug does what it is supposed to do/prevents what it is supposed to prevent).

 

[Karin1984]

 

[wvjules]

We will just have to agree to disagree.

as of last Wednesday, I am 2 weeks past my second dose. This was my choice to be vaccinated with a vaccine that is still experimental at this point. I don’t believe a vaccine that it NOT yet fully APPROVED should be able to be forced upon people.

Did the scientists come out overnight and say that you cannot spread Covid if you’re vaccinated? Last time I checked, this was still not known.
I really wish people would get off their high horses about the vaccine and stop belittling who are still hesitant to get it.

I think you are confused. The "E" in EUA is for emergency, not experimental.

 

[White Cat]

Someone not wanting the vaccine is someone that makes poor choices. I might rethink them working for me.

 

[spiders]

Everyone is asking people if they are or are planning to be vaccinated...customers & employees. Delta said 75% of their passengers responded that they are or intend to be vaccinated by early summer. Everyone wants to know. If you don't want to answer then don't answer but you better get used to getting asked because it's only going to increase in the short term.

 

[Cannot_Wait_4Disney]

Someone not wanting the vaccine is someone that makes poor choices. I might rethink them working for me.

Just give em the day off with pay to go get their vaccine. Gotta prove it to get the pay. That will get em off the fence real quick.

 

[Gf77]

Someone not wanting the vaccine is someone that makes poor choices. I might rethink them working for me.

How many people do you employ in your business? Do you ask a prospective employee if they've ever cheated on their wives? Operated under the influence and never been caught? Do they smoke? I can think of plenty of "poor choices" your employees probably make that you have no idea about, that you somehow view as less evil as a refusal to take a vaccine in your mystical "good choices" hierarchy. "Oh Bob, he hits his wife every night after he drinks a sixer and he has the work ethic of a sloth, but at least he's vaccinated. Rick over there is my hardest worker and he fosters five children and runs a non-profit on the weekends, but get this...he didn't take this vaccine. FIRED!"

The crazy part of all of this is how people have taken something like a vaccine, which have existed for hundreds of years, and made it the next "politics". First it was which team you liked (oh you like the Yankee's? Scumbag!), then it was political side you were on, now it's if you've taken this vaccine (not the other 19 vaccines we are given in our lifetime, this exact, specific one is all that matters). We can't just let people live their lives, we need to DEMONIZE them for daring to think or speak or act differently than what is "normal". This is not a good world to pass down to your children.

 

[dez1978]

How many people do you employ in your business? Do you ask a prospective employee if they've ever cheated on their wives? Operated under the influence and never been caught? Do they smoke? I can think of plenty of "poor choices" your employees probably make that you have no idea about, that you somehow view as less evil as a refusal to take a vaccine in your mystical "good choices" hierarchy. "Oh Bob, he hits his wife every night after he drinks a sixer and he has the work ethic of a sloth, but at least he's vaccinated. Rick over there is my hardest worker and he fosters five children and runs a non-profit on the weekends, but get this...he didn't take this vaccine. FIRED!"

The crazy part of all of this is how people have taken something like a vaccine, which have existed for hundreds of years, and made it the next "politics". First it was which team you liked (oh you like the Yankee's? Scumbag!), then it was political side you were on, now it's if you've taken this vaccine (not the other 19 vaccines we are given in our lifetime, this exact, specific one is all that matters). We can't just let people live their lives, we need to DEMONIZE them for daring to think or speak or act differently than what is "normal". This is not a good world to pass down to your children.

I love this post so much

 

[Starport Seven-Five]

A couple of reasons.
Because, while in this case the employer has a legitimate interest in this information, they must take the same steps to keep it private as a medical facility would and that generally means limiting exposure of that information to people who do not need to know it. Just like a Doctor will not ask a patient their sexual history out in a crowded waiting room.

And also because of the inherent nature of employer-employee relationships. Especially with the employer being the owner of the business, 'asking' a subordinate something is the same as telling them to tell you. If a boss 'asks' a janitor to sweep the floor, you know he's not really asking right?

Some medical questions are asked at the front desk upon check in though and not every doctor appointment is done behind closed doors. When I got my vaccine it was in a cubicle partition with people just over the wall that could hear every word. When I was in the hospital we were 2 to a room with a curtain in between.

I agree that the relationship between the two parties puts pressure on the lower report to answer but I also don't think it would be insubordinate to refuse. A janitor being asked to do something within their job responsibilities is different and not a good parallel.

now it's if you've taken this vaccine (not the other 19 vaccines we are given in our lifetime, this exact, specific one is all that matters). We can't just let people live their lives, we need to DEMONIZE them for daring to think or speak or act differently than what is "normal". This is not a good world to pass down to your children.

To be fair, anti-vaxxers are nothing new and I've been judging them harshly for it for years.

 

[Gf77]

To be fair, anti-vaxxers are nothing new and I've been judging them harshly for it for years.

To be even more fair, someone can be pro-vaccine and anti this particular vaccine. Or not even anti this vaccine, but having adopted a more "wait and see" approach? Do you have room in your judgments for different levels of offense, or is it all or nothing? I think you unironically proved my point. I think there's a saying about judging others in the Good Book...

 

[AndreaA]

Some medical questions are asked at the front desk upon check in though and not every doctor appointment is done behind closed doors. When I got my vaccine it was in a cubicle partition with people just over the wall that could hear every word. When I was in the hospital we were 2 to a room with a curtain in between.

I agree that the relationship between the two parties puts pressure on the lower report to answer but I also don't think it would be insubordinate to refuse. A janitor being asked to do something within their job responsibilities is different and not a good parallel.


To be fair, anti-vaxxers are nothing new and I've been judging them harshly for it for years.

This is NOT the same as the average quack anti-vaxxer, and it’s offensive to suggest that it is. Not being 100% comfortable with a new type of vaccine which has only been used on humans in very small numbers until now - and never with official FDA approval - is actually more rational than simply going along and assuming it’s totally fine because “science”, even though that same “science” is continually changing and realizing new things.

It’s also very different to have a vaccine surrounded by strangers than to be put on the spot with personal questions amongst co-workers, followed by derision and mocking. Yes, that was for THIS specific instance, but the reason such conversations should be private is because you don’t know what response anyone is going to have. What if the manager didn’t care that X WAS getting vaccinated, but all his co-workers actually are rabid anti-vaxxers and decided to harass him about it? I mean I guess some people would be happy if those who questioned the vaccine were harassed, but they probably wouldn’t be too happy if the reverse happened.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Some medical questions are asked at the front desk upon check in though and not every doctor appointment is done behind closed doors. When I got my vaccine it was in a cubicle partition with people just over the wall that could hear every word. When I was in the hospital we were 2 to a room with a curtain in between.

In the interest of this thread though you were getting your vaccine at the time meaning you were already willing assumedly by sitting down allowing someone to vaccinate you, the person administering your vaccine wasn't your boss either.

The situation presented in the OP was about asking a person in authority in front of other employees whether they would get the vaccine or not and when presented with an answer that didn't match what they wanted to hear took it further than that. I do get what you're discussing as far as not every single minute medical detail is between you and one other person but I also do understand that this situation is a workplace one such that not there are levels of appropriateness and IMO the franchise owner showed a lack of professionalism and appropriateness in respects to gaining knowledge on who was planning to get the vaccine or not.

 

[Starport Seven-Five]

To be even more fair, someone can be pro-vaccine and anti this particular vaccine. Or not even anti this vaccine, but having adopted a more "wait and see" approach? Do you have room in your judgments for different levels of offense, or is it all or nothing? I think you unironically proved my point. I think there's a saying about judging others in the Good Book...

I was replying to this specific portion as you made it sound like no one cares about other vaccines people have received.

The crazy part of all of this is how people have taken something like a vaccine, which have existed for hundreds of years, and made it the next "politics". First it was which team you liked (oh you like the Yankee's? Scumbag!), then it was political side you were on, now it's if you've taken this vaccine (not the other 19 vaccines we are given in our lifetime, this exact, specific one is all that matters). We can't just let people live their lives, we need to DEMONIZE them for daring to think or speak or act differently than what is "normal". This is not a good world to pass down to your children.

In the interest of this thread though you were getting your vaccine at the time meaning you were already willing assumedly by sitting down allowing someone to vaccinate you, the person administering your vaccine wasn't your boss either.

The nurse administering it confirmed a few details that related to pre-existing conditions and risk factors. I don't care, I was just pointing out that every medical discussion does not occur behind closed doors.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

The nurse administering it confirmed a few details that related to pre-existing conditions and risk factors. I don't care, I was just pointing out that every medical discussion does not occur behind closed doors.

Which is why I made a point to say I understood you were saying that not every minute medical detail is just between you and another person, I get that but for this thread we're talking about someone's boss asking them in front of others if they were going to get the vaccine or not. That is not the same type of medical question that would be more apt to hear at the front desk of a medical office or whether the nurse giving you your shot was asking about pre-existing conditions. So in that way I understand what the PP you were discussing this with was getting at with respects to confidentiality between someone's boss and their medical information such that asking in front of others presents (or IMO does) an issue. There's a relationship there that means something different than the nurse asking you if you have pre-existing conditions which changes the dynamics of the information being asked or shared. It's also why I was talking about normally such information about medical stuff is kept to a "need to know" basis. If you were speaking more generally I apologize I was just trying to pick up with the conversation that was going on between you and the other poster which was discussing more this situation in this thread.

 

[RamblingMad]

Essentially we’ll have two classes of people. Those that vaccinated. And those that didn’t.

Those that don’t will be able to do less. We already see that with cruises and sea world in CA. This is our reality.

At work I don’t see how this is any different than a flu shot.