Vaccinations

[Nikel]

It's good for breastfeeding moms to see to understand how breastmilk provides protection, but yet kiddoes need to have their own immune systems challenged via their own shots.

I am actually interested now. In this thread we've had some sort of medical professional (sorry, can't remember what exactly the poster does, and I'm don't feel like wading through to look, and actually, I'm not even sure if it was in this vax thread) saying that the vaccinations aren't going to compromise the immune system. And now, I'm being told vaccines are needed to challenge the immune system. So which is it?

That is why so many people have a hard time deciding about vaccines or just stop listening to others, IMO. Every time you turn around, you get a different take on everything. It's like that with so many medical issues though. We weren't accepted as patients by a local ped group because my dd wasn't born in a hospital.

 

[LadyShiva]

kdibattista: with regards to your mention of Rotovirus, breastfeeding will help with keeping kiddo hydrated (if your child is able to keep down the milk, it will digest in an hour and a half, versus 6 hours for formula), will provide antibodies (child's saliva will carry the virus, and your breast tissue will react to it and produce antibodies which will be transmitted to the kiddo via your milk) but it will not provide complete protection.
You will probaby see an amazing improvement in your child after each nursing session, but they will not be "cured." In addition, with being in that close a contact to someone that contagious, you will get to experience rotovirus yourself... which means vomiting, diarrhea, and all sorts of laundry-creating goodness. Don't think this means I advocate someone else feeding kiddo--only you will be able to produce those antibodies kiddo will desperately need, and pumping probably won't cut it.

It always amazed and deflated me that kiddo would immediately get better after a nursing session (SUPERMOMMY!) and yet I would still feel like dirt!

Good on you for nursing! Try not to have any formula in the house when you bring your kid home--it makes a world of difference, actually, on if you stick with the nursing. No pacifiers, either, until you get nursing established (about 4 weeks). Just get through one day at a time when you start out, and don't hesitate to yell for help. My best helper was hubby, who agreed to change diapers if I filled up kid. He also made sure we were set for each nursing session--water, burping cloth, pillows, reading material.

Brandie

 

[poohandwendy]

we've had some sort of medical professional

If you are talking about Deb in IA, IIRC, she is a pediatrician.

 

[KariC]

What is synagis for? I have seen you talk about it on other threads. Is it an RSV vaccine? DD8 was a premie (34 weeks) and they never recommended any monthly shots to us.

i dont think it was available....it is to prevent rsv...only given routinely to 34 weekers and younger. We had to get "permission" for ours at 34 weeks, 2 days.

 

[LadyShiva]

I am actually interested now. In this thread we've had some sort of medical professional (sorry, can't remember what exactly the poster does, and I'm don't feel like wading through to look, and actually, I'm not even sure if it was in this vax thread) saying that the vaccinations aren't going to compromise the immune system. And now, I'm being told vaccines are needed to challenge the immune system. So which is it?

That is why so many people have a hard time deciding about vaccines or just stop listening to others, IMO. Every time you turn around, you get a different take on everything. It's like that with so many medical issues though. We weren't accepted as patients by a local ped group because my dd wasn't born in a hospital.

Ok, that last part had me say, "OH GOOD LORD...!"

Gimme a sec to answer fully--dog is going nuts wanting out.

B.

 

[dennis99ss]

Go away from the DIS and a debate about this topic comes up and I don't even get to get on until the OP has long since gone. Bummer.

But, just in case op is still out there.

I think you are smart about being concerned about the vaccines. There are two theories about autism and vaccines. The first is that the mmr vaccine has a reaction that causes the autistic tendancies to surface. The second is that thimerisol, in the vaccine, causes the autistic reaction. Thimerisol has been removed from the childhood vaccines in the US. It has not been removed from vaccines totally. It is still contained in flu vaccines and the like. It is still exported to africa as aid, etc.

Facts: mercury and autism share 95% or more of the same symptoms. Thimerisol is a mercury based product, used as a preservative. There is a theory that thimerisol, once injected, either causes mercury poisoning, or, changes its form, to cause mercury poisoning.

Basically, as a child, your body has less ability to pass metals. Some children have to "learn" this ability, and for those who have this genetic difficulty, the body will learn at 3 years or so. Based upon the immunization schedule, and the amount of thimerisol in the vaccinations, children were, in the past, injected with this poison. Most were able to pass it. Some were not. Hence, the mercury posoning and/or autism resulted.

There are genetic cases of autism. i am not addressing those. There are likely cases of autism, or autistic related illnesses, caused by environmental or other factors.

I am only discussing thimerisol related autistic diagnosis. These are different than genetic diagnosis. These are kids, I believe, that had a genetic predisposition to having a difficulty in passing heavy metals. Unfortunately, before their body could develop to the point where they could handle the metal or pass it, they were injected with so much mercury, that they ended up being poisoned, and declared autistic. These are the kids who were walking, talking, playing one day, get a shot, and bam, autistic overnight.

I know that there are studies saying there is no connection. However, the studies that are cited, by the US Govt. were in conjunction and/or funded by the drug companies. (or, the doctors were on the payroll) (It has been a while since I went back to look) There are some scientists that believe a connection exists. Of course, those studies are funded by the opposite side.

We will never know if there is a connection. The one way to know, through a lawsuit, is not available to these folks because the government protects the vaccine manufacturers.

I know it is controversial. I know some people here throw out this theory. But, imho, there is a connection between some cases of autism and thimerisol. I am not a dr, or a scientist. i am just a guy who did some research on the issue in an attempt to address it a number of years ago, but came to the conclusion that drug companies with billions of pounds or euros in profit have a tremendous amount of power.

 

[Nikel]

Ok, that last part had me say, "OH GOOD LORD...!"

Gimme a sec to answer fully--dog is going nuts wanting out.

B.

Oh no rush at all. Want another gem in the meantime? We were on TennCare and WCI for a few months. (Dh changed jobs, and took a massive short term paycut, so COBRA wasn't an option. 3 years later, and he makes double what his old job apid with way better hours and benefits.) Anyway, we went in for the after birth WIC visit, and my tetanus immunization wasn't current. The crazy nurse told me to wean my newborn, so I could get the shot. I ignored her "advice." Then when I told her I was planning on exclusively breastfeeding until at least 6 months, she very snarkily said, "Well good luck with that. It's not gonna happen." Fortunately by that time, dh's new insurance had kicked in, so we never went back.

 

[3jsmommy]

Go away from the DIS and a debate about this topic comes up and I don't even get to get on until the OP has long since gone. Bummer.

But, just in case op is still out there.

I think you are smart about being concerned about the vaccines. There are two theories about autism and vaccines. The first is that the mmr vaccine has a reaction that causes the autistic tendancies to surface. The second is that thimerisol, in the vaccine, causes the autistic reaction. Thimerisol has been removed from the childhood vaccines in the US. It has not been removed from vaccines totally. It is still contained in flu vaccines and the like. It is still exported to africa as aid, etc.

Facts: mercury and autism share 95% or more of the same symptoms. Thimerisol is a mercury based product, used as a preservative. There is a theory that thimerisol, once injected, either causes mercury poisoning, or, changes its form, to cause mercury poisoning.

Basically, as a child, your body has less ability to pass metals. Some children have to "learn" this ability, and for those who have this genetic difficulty, the body will learn at 3 years or so. Based upon the immunization schedule, and the amount of thimerisol in the vaccinations, children were, in the past, injected with this poison. Most were able to pass it. Some were not. Hence, the mercury posoning and/or autism resulted.

There are genetic cases of autism. i am not addressing those. There are likely cases of autism, or autistic related illnesses, caused by environmental or other factors.

I am only discussing thimerisol related autistic diagnosis. These are different than genetic diagnosis. These are kids, I believe, that had a genetic predisposition to having a difficulty in passing heavy metals. Unfortunately, before their body could develop to the point where they could handle the metal or pass it, they were injected with so much mercury, that they ended up being poisoned, and declared autistic. These are the kids who were walking, talking, playing one day, get a shot, and bam, autistic overnight.

I know that there are studies saying there is no connection. However, the studies that are cited, by the US Govt. were in conjunction and/or funded by the drug companies. (or, the doctors were on the payroll) (It has been a while since I went back to look) There are some scientists that believe a connection exists. Of course, those studies are funded by the opposite side.

We will never know if there is a connection. The one way to know, through a lawsuit, is not available to these folks because the government protects the vaccine manufacturers.

I know it is controversial. I know some people here throw out this theory. But, imho, there is a connection between some cases of autism and thimerisol. I am not a dr, or a scientist. i am just a guy who did some research on the issue in an attempt to address it a number of years ago, but came to the conclusion that drug companies with billions of pounds or euros in profit have a tremendous amount of power.

It is so refreshing to read a post that is so accurate, unfortunately I have seen this power thrown around at FDA meetings etc.. Your post is right on!!!!

 

[poohandwendy]

Go away from the DIS and a debate about this topic comes up and I don't even get to get on until the OP has long since gone. Bummer.

But, just in case op is still out there.

I think you are smart about being concerned about the vaccines. There are two theories about autism and vaccines. The first is that the mmr vaccine has a reaction that causes the autistic tendancies to surface. The second is that thimerisol, in the vaccine, causes the autistic reaction. Thimerisol has been removed from the childhood vaccines in the US. It has not been removed from vaccines totally. It is still contained in flu vaccines and the like. It is still exported to africa as aid, etc.

Facts: mercury and autism share 95% or more of the same symptoms. Thimerisol is a mercury based product, used as a preservative. There is a theory that thimerisol, once injected, either causes mercury poisoning, or, changes its form, to cause mercury poisoning.

Basically, as a child, your body has less ability to pass metals. Some children have to "learn" this ability, and for those who have this genetic difficulty, the body will learn at 3 years or so. Based upon the immunization schedule, and the amount of thimerisol in the vaccinations, children were, in the past, injected with this poison. Most were able to pass it. Some were not. Hence, the mercury posoning and/or autism resulted.

There are genetic cases of autism. i am not addressing those. There are likely cases of autism, or autistic related illnesses, caused by environmental or other factors.

I am only discussing thimerisol related autistic diagnosis. These are different than genetic diagnosis. These are kids, I believe, that had a genetic predisposition to having a difficulty in passing heavy metals. Unfortunately, before their body could develop to the point where they could handle the metal or pass it, they were injected with so much mercury, that they ended up being poisoned, and declared autistic. These are the kids who were walking, talking, playing one day, get a shot, and bam, autistic overnight.

I know that there are studies saying there is no connection. However, the studies that are cited, by the US Govt. were in conjunction and/or funded by the drug companies. (or, the doctors were on the payroll) (It has been a while since I went back to look) There are some scientists that believe a connection exists. Of course, those studies are funded by the opposite side.

We will never know if there is a connection. The one way to know, through a lawsuit, is not available to these folks because the government protects the vaccine manufacturers.

I know it is controversial. I know some people here throw out this theory. But, imho, there is a connection between some cases of autism and thimerisol. I am not a dr, or a scientist. i am just a guy who did some research on the issue in an attempt to address it a number of years ago, but came to the conclusion that drug companies with billions of pounds or euros in profit have a tremendous amount of power.

Since thimerosal has been removed from childhood vaccinations, I am not sure I understand the point of your post.

Secondly, thimerasol was never in the MMR vaccine:

http://www.fda.gov/cber/vaccine/thimerosal.htm

 

[LadyShiva]

I am actually interested now. In this thread we've had some sort of medical professional (sorry, can't remember what exactly the poster does, and I'm don't feel like wading through to look, and actually, I'm not even sure if it was in this vax thread) saying that the vaccinations aren't going to compromise the immune system. And now, I'm being told vaccines are needed to challenge the immune system. So which is it?

That is why so many people have a hard time deciding about vaccines or just stop listening to others, IMO. Every time you turn around, you get a different take on everything. It's like that with so many medical issues though. We weren't accepted as patients by a local ped group because my dd wasn't born in a hospital.

I think you see this as black and white ("vaccines compromise the immune system or NOT" and "vaccines are needed to challenge the immune system." are two logical statements that conflict, where they actually don't.)

This link is not the optimal link, but it does provide an answer to the above: http://www.metrokc.gov/health/immunization/system.htm

See this part:
"According to William Atkinson, MD, U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, 'The immune system is an extremely capable system. It can manage and respond to literally millions of antigens (foreign substances) at the same time. Take for example, walking outside on a spring day with flowers and trees in bloom. Through your mouth, nose and lungs, your immune system will constantly respond to multiple antigens (like pollen and dust) as it does its work in your bloodstream. In the same way, in daily interactions, you may be exposed to multiple cold viruses and your body will respond successfully. But some infections can cause severe illness and death even in persons with healthy immune systems. We can help the immune system ward off the serious infectious diseases that immunizations can prevent.'"

Basically, just because your immune system is triggered by an exposure to pollen doesn't mean it can't fight off the cold your co-worker has. Likewise, just because a lactating mom is producing antibodies for her kiddo via breastmilk, that does not mean her body is completely open to infection. It is in immunosuppressed individuals (such as those with AIDS or organ transplants, or those taking steroids) that one infection opens the door to other infections. Their immune systems cannot fight off all of the different challenges.

Kiddoes have to be challenged because their own immune systems don't -learn- how to fight off challenges by nursing. They piggyback off of mom's immune system, but their immune systems also need to learn how to create their own antibodies. Most vaccines are dead virii, so the reaction is triggered in the kiddo, without the virus being able to replicate and therefore start causing problems. The amount of virus in the shot isn't important, because it will still be destroyed by the immunological challenge (nothing to defend itself with--the virus is dead). On the vaccines that use "weakened" virii, the theory is still that the virus can't put up enough of a fight to cause problems.

This is different than giving your kid Tylenol--Tylenol uses a different mechanism completely to be absorbed and the chemical reaction is completely dose-responsive.

I'm still looking for the pretty presentation I mentioned earlier, but the link I posted here carries a lot of the information I put here.

Brandie

 

[Deb in IA]

We will never know if there is a connection. The one way to know, through a lawsuit, is not available to these folks because the government protects the vaccine manufacturers.

Oh, right. The lawsuit test of scientific validity.

No need for the usual scientific method of critical observation, formulation of a hypothesis, conducting an experiment to test the hypothesis, gathering and collecting data, statistical evaluation, and drawing a conclusion from the results of the experiment.

 

[LadyShiva]

Oh no rush at all. Want another gem in the meantime? We were on TennCare and WCI for a few months. (Dh changed jobs, and took a massive short term paycut, so COBRA wasn't an option. 3 years later, and he makes double what his old job apid with way better hours and benefits.) Anyway, we went in for the after birth WIC visit, and my tetanus immunization wasn't current. The crazy nurse told me to wean my newborn, so I could get the shot. I ignored her "advice." Then when I told her I was planning on exclusively breastfeeding until at least 6 months, she very snarkily said, "Well good luck with that. It's not gonna happen." Fortunately by that time, dh's new insurance had kicked in, so we never went back.

You can see the steam leaking from my ears at this story from where you are, I'll bet.... woooohoooo.... Talk about not seeing the forest for the trees!

Brandie

 

[KariC]

Oh, right. The lawsuit test of scientific validity.

No need for the usual scientific method of critical observation, formulation of a hypothesis, conducting an experiment to test the hypothesis, gathering and collecting data, statistical evaluation, and drawing a conclusion from the results of the experiment.

guess not, Deb!

 

[LadyShiva]

Since thimerosal has been removed from childhood vaccinations, I am not sure I understand the point of your post.

Secondly, thimerasol was never in the MMR vaccine:

http://www.fda.gov/cber/vaccine/thimerosal.htm

Thank you for pointing that out... Do you want me to post the CDC article about the difference/history between methyl and ethyl mercury and the different absorption/metabolism of the two?

Brandie

 

[Deb in IA]

And I was wondering how long it would be before someone brought up the "conspiracy theory" . . . yes, all of us pediatricians are being paid off beaucoup bucks by those evil vaccine manufacturers to inject autism-causing drugs into your kids . . . our secret is finally out . . .

I guess I'll just have to join Elvis (who is still alive, you know), and JFK's other assassins, and head over to Roswell, NM to be taken up to the Mother Ship . . .

 

[sha_lyn]

...... Then when I told her I was planning on exclusively breastfeeding until at least 6 months, she very snarkily said, "Well good luck with that. It's not gonna happen." Fortunately by that time, dh's new insurance had kicked in, so we never went back.

Reminds me of one of the nurses when I was being released aftr DS was born. Aparently it was standard practice to give BC and the milk drying pills to new moms as they were being discharged. I kept telling her I didn't want them. She kept insisting. Said I had to take them (I forget the thinly veiled threats she made, but something about getting the Dr to make sure I took them) then she prceeded to tell me that if I didn't take the pills She knew I would show up PG at my check-up. Of course this was the same hospital that insisted that I had to pump and dump since I was on antibiotics for a UTI. Funny thing was they had DS on the same antibiotic as a precautionary measure.

 

[LadyShiva]

And I was wondering how long it would be before someone brought up the "conspiracy theory" . . . yes, all of us pediatricians are being paid off beaucoup bucks by those evil vaccine manufacturers to inject autism-causing drugs into your kids . . . our secret is finally out . . .

I guess I'll just have to join Elvis (who is still alive, you know), and JFK's other assassins, and head over to Roswell, NM to be taken up to the Mother Ship . . .

You're not??? But... but... Well, that just BLOWS EVERYTHING. I hope you're proud of yourself for shifting the paradigm and blowing the curve and all that!



Seriously, I do think it is important to keep learning and refining the craft of medicine. And challenges are good, but they have to be balanced with objectivity. Just baiting you to bait you might be fun, but it doesn't help kids or parents. I think too many of us (yourself included) run into people whose BELIEFS matter more to them than their quest for knowledge. It's comforting to believe in something, but it can also stop intellectual growth.

Brandie

 

[DisneyPhD]

Oh no rush at all. Want another gem in the meantime? We were on TennCare and WCI for a few months. (Dh changed jobs, and took a massive short term paycut, so COBRA wasn't an option. 3 years later, and he makes double what his old job apid with way better hours and benefits.) Anyway, we went in for the after birth WIC visit, and my tetanus immunization wasn't current. The crazy nurse told me to wean my newborn, so I could get the shot. I ignored her "advice." Then when I told her I was planning on exclusively breastfeeding until at least 6 months, she very snarkily said, "Well good luck with that. It's not gonna happen." Fortunately by that time, dh's new insurance had kicked in, so we never went back.

Ick, so sorry that nurse said that. That does seem like Wic is against breastfeeding. How frustrating. It makes me so made to hear stories like that. Sorry to hear about the trouble then too, and things are better now.

 

[Nikel]

Kiddoes have to be challenged because their own immune systems don't -learn- how to fight off challenges by nursing. They piggyback off of mom's immune system, but their immune systems also need to learn how to create their own antibodies. Most vaccines are dead virii, so the reaction is triggered in the kiddo, without the virus being able to replicate and therefore start causing problems. The amount of virus in the shot isn't important, because it will still be destroyed by the immunological challenge (nothing to defend itself with--the virus is dead). On the vaccines that use "weakened" virii, the theory is still that the virus can't put up enough of a fight to cause problems.

Okay, so how do reactions fit into all of this? Is it a case of the immune system not being able to handle it? Or something in the vaccine? Or something else entirely? How do I figure out what happened with my dd? I would like to do quite a bit of travel when they're a bit older, and would be more open to reconsidering some vaxes then, but not if I'm risking her life.

You can see the steam leaking from my ears at this story from where you are, I'll bet.... woooohoooo.... Talk about not seeing the forest for the trees!

Brandie

Unfortunately I could share plenty more stories. So it's easy to see why some people are skeptical, even of "trained professionals."

And I was wondering how long it would be before someone brought up the "conspiracy theory" . . . yes, all of us pediatricians are being paid off beaucoup bucks by those evil vaccine manufacturers to inject autism-causing drugs into your kids . . . our secret is finally out . . .

I guess I'll just have to join Elvis (who is still alive, you know), and JFK's other assassins, and head over to Roswell, NM to be taken up to the Mother Ship . . .

For me personally, I don't think peds are in on it. (Well, I'm sure there are some bad seeds, just like any profession, but that's a statistically insignificant percentage, I'm sure.) I do think the government and pharmaceuticals companies truly have the public's well-being as their main concern. Money plays too big of a role. New drugs and vaxes are rushed to beat the competition, IMO. I have no clue how to fix it though. Or maybe I'm just paranoid.

 

[katerkat]

I stated my reason in an earlier post but here it is again. One of the reason for vaccinating is to protect the community. Vaccines aren't 100% effective and never have been. However, if EVERY child has them the likelihood of having an outbreak of measles, mumps, chicken pox is negligible. However, if out of 500 kids in a school 50 aren't vaccinated it really could take hold and put those who's vaccination didn't take hold at risk.

I just don't think parents should be able to have it both ways. If you don't want to vaccinate then your child shouldn't be allowed in a group setting for extended periods - i.e. school, community sports and art programs etc.

My son currently can't go to preschool at the daycare on base because he's not fully vaccinated. This means I also can't use "parents night out" or "give parents a break" (a program for spouses of deployed service members.) Despite my friends mocking me every month when I have to arrange my own sitter, I still haven't put him in this group setting.

He's been exposed to chicken pox now - by a neighbor kid who had the vaccine and booster! We're currently on pox watch because apparently there was an outbreak at the local elementary school, which several of Russ's friends attend. But he doesn't.

But hey, if he catches it, I just have to get his blood drawn and he'll be allowed to go to the daycare.