Using Points for the DVC "Collections" - updated 9/5/2019

[Sammie]

Thanks Carol. Obviously the car example is still not getting my point across. The point was a car is "really" only needed to get from point A to point B so buying anything other than the least expensive version is a waste of money. Just like food, we could all save money by buying less expensive food but do we want to do that.

But, now pay attention here, I am sure very few of y'all that say using points outside DVC is a poor use of your money, buy the least expensive car or cheaper food. So to me you're saying do this only for DVC but do whatever you want for other purchases. I am not comparing the car to DVC points, I am using the car as an example of how you place value on your money.

I am not sure any of us are qualified to tell anyone what is a good use of their points and even saying you end up with money in your pocket does not support that, BECAUSE if I always buy the least expensive option of everything I purchase I would save money. But who does that.

There are too many variables to me in the equation to make a blanket statement that is it always better not to use your points outside of DVC. As Carol pointed out, the value of those points is different for each member and my time most likely is much for valuable to me than yours.

 

[Brian Noble]

Sammie, I just flat disagree with your reasoning here.

The question isn't "Do I want to take a Disney cruise or do I want to camp in my back yard for our vacation this year?" The question is: "How can I minimize the number of points I use to pay for a particular cruise?" That's a very simple question. There are only two ways to use points to book a cruise. One: call Member Services, and use points to book the cruise directly. Two: rent out enough points to cover the cost of the cash fare, and pay for the cruise with that cash. Option two almost always requires fewer points than option one. That leaves you with more points (money) to use for other things, but you take exactly the same cruise either way.

Granted, it does take more time to rent the points out than to just call Member Services and be done with it, and that time has value. Depending on where one is on the time/money curve, it could be completely reasonable to just book on points rather than bother with renting.

 

[Sammie]

We will just have to agree to disagree then and that is fine. And I still don't think you get my point. I am not comparing the actual products, I am putting a value on my time and points differently than you, Dean and others that think it is better to pay cash. I simply do not see it that way.

To me even discussing DVC and good financial choices in the same sentence is an oxymoron.

I guess to me, that unless someone "always" buys the product that is the best financial use of money, how can they say do it for this but not for something else?

Again don't compare the products, compare your spending styles in every purchase you make.

Don't you sometimes run into a 7-11 for a product that would be much less expensive at Wal-mart. According to all of you that is not good financial use of your money. However to me, it could be if it takes me less time, because of the value I put on my time and convenience. I am looking at a much broader view of value of my points. Which is what was said in the into of the thread. This controversy is really over how you value your points.

I guess what I would like to see come out of this discussion is present members with options and let them to decide which is better for them. Instead of some repeatedly saying using your points outside of DVC is a not a good financial move and acting like it is fact.

 

[Brian Noble]

I am putting a value on my time and points differently than you

No one is suggesting you shouldn't.

Dean and others that think it is better to pay cash.

No. Dean (and I) are saying it takes fewer points to pay cash.

I accept that there are people for whom the minimal time spent on renting out the points is not worth the money saved in doing so. But, I suspect most of those people are better off not even bothering to own DVC, and just paying cash for any Disney vacation they want when they want it. A close friend of mine is a good example. He's a serial entrepreneur, and if I were to put a dollar value on an hour of his time, it would be substantial. He and his family visit Disney destinations frequently: WDW, Disneyland, and Aulani, and they stay top-shelf when they go. I talked him through DVC a few years ago. His reaction? He decided it ultimately wasn't worth it to have to plan ahead, figure out how to manage points, etc. He'd rather just pay the prevailing rate whenever he feels like going. For him, vacation is vacation, and this sounded like work. Given where he is on the time/money curve, that's not a bad decision.

 

[Sammie]

Exactly Brian that is my point.

No one other than the individual member knows what the value of their time is or more the value of their points. There are simply too many variables to consider to always say, using them outside of DVC is a poor use of your money.

That really is all I was trying to get across. I think presenting everyone with options is great, knowledge is power. But then let them decide.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

We will just have to agree to disagree then and that is fine. And I still don't think you get my point. I am not comparing the actual products, I am putting a value on my time and points differently than you, Dean and others that think it is better to pay cash. I simply do not see it that way.

To me even discussing DVC and good financial choices in the same sentence is an oxymoron.

Your car example is not doing that though - it's comparing different products. It takes the same amount of time to go buy the cheaper or the more expensive car. That example in Disney terms is like comparing paying cash at POP vs paying cash to stay at GF. It's nothing like comparing trading value.

What I read you as saying is it just doesn't matter to you if you could get more cash. You simply want to spend your money however you want to spend your money. But that isn't really the discussion of trade value - this isn't a discussion over your point which is that it's your money to use and spend as you wish. However, in this discussion you also have to settle on basic factors - one is that you own DVC. There's no factor for a trade if you don't own DVC.

 

[Sammie]

I am going to try one more time, then I am out of this. Because you are still not getting my point. I think Brian is getting close. Yes the car comparison was not understood, because yet again you are comparing specific cars instead of a just a car.

Unless someone always purchases the least expensive option of the same product, to me it is hypocritical to come on here and tell someone that using their points is not a good use of their money.

Again I think giving everyone options is great, I just really wish everyone would drop the comments about it is not a good use of money unless they are someone that does that always in every purchase they make. That is all.

There are many factors that go into making a purchase and this case is no different, it is not as cut and dry as some of you portray.

Kat, you don't know if I could get more cash or not. Because you would have to assign value to my points and my time and I don't think you are qualified to do that.

That is my point. This controversy is really over how you value your points.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

Kat, you don't know if I could get more cash or not. Because you would have to assign value to my points and my time and I don't think you are qualified to do that.

That is my point. This controversy is really over how you value your points.

Valuing points is just an equation and not terribly controversial. Even your time can be assigned a value. All of the points about value of your time are valid and I've never disputed that as I've never in all this said "you, Sammie, must go rent your points". As I mentioned earlier I'd give value to flexibility for example if there were more in a trade and less in booking cash. Each person must evaluate and determine what to do. Letting people know that renting and paying cash might mean less money out of their pocket for the vacation doesn't seem like it's being very ill-intentioned nor would I, or have I, berated a person when they take that information and for any reason decide they don't want to do it. Out of all the value conversations, the value of trading DVC is really one of the more straight forward when comparing to something like the value of owning DVC or the value that staying in larger accommodations brings etc.

 

[Sammie]

Valuing points is just an equation and not terribly controversial. Even your time can be assigned a value. All of the points about value of your time are valid and I've never disputed that as I've never in all this said "you, Sammie, must go rent your points". As I mentioned earlier I'd give value to flexibility for example if there were more in a trade and less in booking cash. Each person must evaluate and determine what to do. Letting people know that renting and paying cash might mean less money out of their pocket for the vacation doesn't seem like it's being very ill-intentioned nor would I, or have I, berated a person when they take that information and for any reason decide they don't want to do it. Out of all the value conversations, the value of trading DVC is really one of the more straight forward when comparing to something like the value of owning DVC or the value that staying in larger accommodations brings etc.

I agree, but I just think some on here, not you, have said in the past that using points is a poor use of that person's money. I just don't think anyone other than that person can determine that, because one, no one knows what the person paid for their points, whether they financed or paid cash, how long they have had them, what their dues or, how much their time is worth. So again, it is varies for each person.

Yet again it's all about the value one places on their points and only they can determine that.

I think giving members information about options is great, I just hope going forward we will not see any blanket statements like we have in the past that said using your points outside of DVC is a poor use of one's money. That is opinion, not fact.

 

[Brian Noble]

I just don't think anyone other than that person can determine that, because one, no one knows what the person paid for their points, whether they financed or paid cash, how long they have had them, what their dues or, how much their time is worth.

Only one of those variables matters: what is your time worth? The others have no bearing on how much revenue you generate by renting out your points.

There is one other category you left out---where you own. That does matter, because some resorts generate better rental revenue than others. But, even at the lowest-revenue resort(s), you would use fewer points to book the cruise/ABD trip/hotel room by going the rental route vs. using the Disney Collection in almost all cases.

 

[freediverdude]

Depending on how much you save going the rental route, it may indeed not be worth it for some people. Especially if you're only saving a couple hundred dollars or something like that- people's time can be worth quite a bit depending on their situation. Plus renting involves some risk as well, possibly being stuck with some points, or a renter that damages the unit and you're liable, or drives off leaving a folio of charges that ultimately they can't collect and again you're liable.

 

[Dean]

Dean and others that think it is better to pay cash.

That's not an accurate representation. What I believe is the points have an inherent value thats the same no matter what one paid and that one should consider that value as part of the decision making. Just be honest about it. If the answer is I'm willing to accept less than the real value not to fool with rental, that's a decision one has to make but in my example a page back, and in many real life situations, that difference can often be significant. IMO what one paid or what one mentally thinks about the value does not change the actual inherent value if used used for rentals. Part of the moving parts of this is that DVC is easy to rent, the same is not true for some timeshare options. Obviously that assumes that one owns the points already. It's an even bigger issue if one is looking at both paying retail prices for a new property AND buying extra points to cruise. I also believe that the usage for such cash type exchanges has an inherent risk and personally feel it's usually more than the risk of doing the rental.

 

[Sammie]

That's not an accurate representation. What I believe is the points have an inherent value thats the same no matter what one paid and that one should consider that value as part of the decision making. Just be honest about it. If the answer is I'm willing to accept less than the real value not to fool with rental, that's a decision one has to make but in my example a page back, and in many real life situations, that difference can often be significant. IMO what one paid or what one mentally thinks about the value does not change the actual inherent value if used used for rentals. Part of the moving parts of this is that DVC is easy to rent, the same is not true for some timeshare options. Obviously that assumes that one owns the points already. It's an even bigger issue if one is looking at both paying retail prices for a new property AND buying extra points to cruise. I also believe that the usage for such cash type exchanges has an inherent risk and personally feel it's usually more than the risk of doing the rental.

Sorry it should say you believe all points have a inherent value that is the same for everyone. I disagree. Because the reason for this is discussion to begin with is how you value your points. I simply do not think saying renting gives everyone the same value for their points is accurate. For one thing as Brian pointed out, some points rent for more, some for less. You can get more renting them yourself than using a broker.

Again as to whether DVC is easy to rent is again a subjective question. No way to put an absolute on what is easy for you is easy for me. Only I can determine that. I personally don't find it easy at all. The very reasons listed in the OP are a major part of my seeing this is not easy at all. I think renting your points for money can be easy, renting them to cruise to me is filled with possible issues and time delays.

I personally think that the purpose for this thread was to point out there is no "one" answer to this question, however I don't think some of you will ever see that.

I would also like to give kudos to whoever wrote the info in the OP, as it truly does give substance to both sides of the question.

 

[Dean]

Sorry it should say you believe all points have a inherent value that is the same for everyone. I disagree. Because the reason for this is discussion to begin with is how you value your points. I simply do not think saying renting gives everyone the same value for their points is accurate. For one thing as Brian pointed out, some points rent for more, some for less. You can get more renting them yourself than using a broker.

Again as to whether DVC is easy to rent is again a subjective question. No way to put an absolute on what is easy for you is easy for me. Only I can determine that. I personally don't find it easy at all. The very reasons listed in the OP are a major part of my seeing this is not easy at all. I think renting your points for money can be easy, renting them to cruise to me is filled with possible issues and time delays.

I personally think that the purpose for this thread was to point out there is no "one" answer to this question, however I don't think some of you will ever see that.

I would also like to give kudos to whoever wrote the info in the OP, as it truly does give substance to both sides of the question.

Given that the limitations on using points in this way would require we are talking a sufficient number of points and planning ahead a fair amount, the actual value of the points in terms of dollars is not much different than looking up a cars value on KBB or similar. It'll vary with the lead time, home resort and restrictions on the points but each set will have an inherent value within a fairly small range. Maybe one would want to use David's service as that reference points.

 

[Brian Noble]

Maybe one would want to use David's service as that reference points.

That's what I would do; it's the easiest way to rent points, and so provides a lower bound. You should never expect to get less than this unless you have points in distress.

 

[Dean]

Since this thread https://www.disboards.com/threads/using-dvc-points-for-a-disney-cruise.3598472/#post-57469682 was left unfinished and further discussion was directed here, I'll oblige. As I said on that thread, there is a hard dollar value for points used and a hard dollar cost for the points for a cruise. That cannot be denied, it is absolute, and there really is an easy way to figure the cost. One simply needs to look at the variables to determine it. I'd look at the number of points, cost of the cruise, sheer $$$ involved, and the lead time on the points involved. Certainly one can do what they want with their points and it's possible a given situation is favorable for using points, but one can't say they simply value them differently and have credibility. They can say "I'm OK with paying $1000 (example) more for a cruise if they want and that's their option but that's the honest answer when one uses points for a cruise. Of course there are also increased risks for using points for a cruise over cash such that personally I wouldn't even if the return were "fair" except possibly on short notice where the risks are more similar cash and points..

 

[CarolMN]

Since this thread https://www.disboards.com/threads/using-dvc-points-for-a-disney-cruise.3598472/#post-57469682 was left unfinished and further discussion was directed here, I'll oblige. As I said on that thread, there is a hard dollar value for points used and a hard dollar cost for the points for a cruise. That cannot be denied, it is absolute, and there really is an easy way to figure the cost. One simply needs to look at the variables to determine it. I'd look at the number of points, cost of the cruise, sheer $$$ involved, and the lead time on the points involved. Certainly one can do what they want with their points and it's possible a given situation is favorable for using points, but one can't say they simply value them differently and have credibility. They can say "I'm OK with paying $1000 (example) more for a cruise if they want and that's their option but that's the honest answer when one uses points for a cruise. Of course there are also increased risks for using points for a cruise over cash such that personally I wouldn't even if the return were "fair" except possibly on short notice where the risks are more similar cash and points..

First of all, thanks for continuing the discussion here.

While it's very doubtful that I personally would use my points to pay for a cruise, I also don't think it's fair to just conclude that someone is "OK with paying $1000 (example) more for a cruise", without explaining what that extra pays for.

IMO, that "extra $1,000" pays for MS to be the Travel Agent and for them to accept the risk & do the work of converting points to cash. That may cost more out-of-pocket than doing it yourself, but IMO, it's a valid choice. There is an element of work and risk to renting out one's points. We all have different tolerances for risk - investing habits & preferences demonstrate that quite well.

I can do lots of things myself that I choose to pay someone else to do - sometimes because they are better at it than I am, sometimes because I do not have time to do it (in light of everything else I have to do) & sometimes, just because I don't want to do it (Can't stress that last reason enough, especially when it comes to housework ).

Perhaps we can agree to say that cruising with points costs more if you do not want to accept the risk & do the work necessary to convert your points to cash on your own.

 

[Dean]

First of all, thanks for continuing the discussion here.

While it's very doubtful that I personally would use my points to pay for a cruise, I also don't think it's fair to just conclude that someone is "OK with paying $1000 (example) more for a cruise", without explaining what that extra pays for.

IMO, that "extra $1,000" pays for MS to be the Travel Agent and for them to accept the risk & do the work of converting points to cash. That may cost more out-of-pocket than doing it yourself, but IMO, it's a valid choice. There is an element of work and risk to renting out one's points. We all have different tolerances for risk - investing habits & preferences demonstrate that quite well.

I can do lots of things myself that I choose to pay someone else to do - sometimes because they are better at it than I am, sometimes because I do not have time to do it (in light of everything else I have to do) & sometimes, just because I don't want to do it (Can't stress that last reason enough, especially when it comes to housework ).

Perhaps we can agree to say that cruising with points costs more if you do not want to accept the risk & do the work necessary to convert your points to cash on your own.

Sure. I would disagree with the issue of comparing what one gets with a cruise as applicable. IMO it's only applicable if you get something extra paying with points you don't with cash and I'm not aware of any situation where that's the cash. All you're getting is a payment method. DVC points are easily liquid and the cash return per point and the value of the points is easily verifiable, these are absolutes IMO. And since one is almost universally talking a volume of points, it's not going to be a small enough $$$ issue to make it negligible. The travel agency gets paid no matter who you go through, the only question is who. Now there are other factors including lead time and there are significant risks using points for a cruise. One just needs to look at the specifics and make their determination. But if it's 400 points for a cruise that could be booked for $2800 on cash and the 400 points could be rented out for $15 pp ($6000). One is literally and unarguably paying $3200 (effectively cash) more for that cruise with the assumptions mentioned, before taxes. It gets more complicated part cash and part points but that's usually an even worse situation than just points.

As for the work and risk of converting points to cash, it's pretty negligible now days and it's infinitely less than the work of using points for a cruise on the risk side and likely less on the work side as well, certainly no worse. But if you want to look at it that way, in this example it's fair to say that one is willing to pay $3200 more to avoid renting, lock yourself into one travel agency and accept the additional risks of using points to cruise.

 

[Dean]

How they get from points to the cash not the DVD side is quite interesting and a study of inefficiency.

 

[disneynutz]

Disney has set things up knowing that people have different comfort zones and that many don't have time to research or who want to take on the extra work which might save some money. Renting from a DVC owner can save people money but millions don't rent and pay Disney cash rates for a room. The DIS has thousands of members who don't rent from DVC owners and the info is right here.

Bill