UPDATE...Vent... irresponsible parents

[sha_lyn]

I know we have all ran into the parents who think their little angel could never do wrong. Well I think I know the family that takes the grand prize in this department...

The 2 boys, ages 7 and 5 are in DD's karate class. The older one started about 2 months after DD (DD has been if for 14 months). The youngest started a couple of months ago.

Well the first problem I noticed was the mother kept telling her oldest to get in front of my DD. She insist they sit and line up by age. They actually sit and line up by their rank in the class. DD has 2 months seniority over her oldest. The instructor finally stopped moving him back because it seemed to cause more problems and DD didn't mind since it put her next to one of her friends.

Last Sat we had competition training. When ever we would line up for something (this was not by rank) her boys would push to the front of the line. Both parents were there and ignored it.
The youngest son was constantly falling with no one around him. The oldest was pushing and hitting everyone around him.
At one point the oldest finished his turn and instead of going to the end of the line he joined about 1/2. He pushed the 2 smaller kids that were behind me (my DD being one of them). When I said something to him he punched me and then passed me. I said something to him again and again he punched me. He then started hitting and pushing the 3 kids in front of him (the kids who had been in front of me). One of the boy (about 9 or so) lightly pushed him back. Well the dad starts screaming "my son's a victim of a bully, something must be done" and other BS like that. The instructor tried to move their son but the father kept on until the instructor moved the other kids.
Later on we were running relay races and the younger son (the one who kept falling) didn't run to the end before he came back and tagged the next kid in line (the same kid his brother had pushed earlier). The kids are trying to tell him to go, and one girl barely touched his shoulder. He ran about 10 feet from her and then fell. Well the mom starts screaming at the girl and then yells for all the kids to stay away from her boys.

I usually don't take DD to karate DH does, and believe me he keeps her in line, as does the instructor. Well last night I went to class and the mother and her 2 boys were about to leave. The mother tells me that my daughter is a trouble maker and is always getting her sons in trouble. Funny thing is her oldest who is an orange belt, had his belt taken away that same day for teasing the other kids. My daughter wasn't even in class that day.

So should I speak to our instructor (who is also a close friend). Funny thing is I feel worse about saying something since our 2 families are so close. IF it were just a "business" relationship I wouldn't even bat an eye. I doubt seriously that talking to the mother would do a bit of good.

 

[gshoemate]

I think I would say something. It sounds like these boys are getting special treatment because they are not behaving. I'm sure the instructor wants to avoid any confrontation with the parents but they shouldn't get away with it. If the rule was they were to line up by rank, thats the way it should of been done. But to avoid conflict, the boys got away with it. Then for the parents to cry about another kid being a bully when he was just sticking up for himself, the parents must have issues.

 

[house_of_princesses]

We, too, are a karate family. Two of my 4 dd's take it, as do I. This is completely unacceptable, and it is up to the instructor to do something. Perhaps ask Sensei how "we all" can help get a grip on this situation. I know our Sensei would bring the whole family into his office and have a nice chat, making clear what is acceptable behavior. He may even raise a curtain to keep the parents from 'distracting' the children. He'd also tell them that if the rules can't be kept, there would be no place for them in his dojo.

Now, I may tell my dd to stand up for the rules, and when one of the boys tries to cut in line, get up front, whatever, she say loudly, this is my spot, I'm a higher rank/was here first...whichever is appropriate. The only reason I wouldn't tell her to do this is if one of the boys may haul off and pop her one. Don't need that.

But, yes, I'd bring it up, and quickly. These boys are out of control, and perhaps shouldn't even be taught karate if they are abusing the art. IMHO.

 

[aunt lissa]

All I can say is I admire your patience! I would have said something by now, to the childrens parents as well as the children. I can however understand your feelings on saying something to the instructor w/ it being more than just a business relationship!

 

[crazyme5kids]

Can your children be moved to a class on a different day or time? The instructor needs to speak to the parents if the kids (and parents) are that disruptive and abusive to everyone.

 

[tkd lisa]

You might not like this answer, but I have been a senior instructor at our Tae Kwon Do school for about 3 years, and we wouldn't have allowed this to go this far. I think your instructor needs to act. If you're good friends, you need to point this out. The instructor is responsible for running the class.

Rule number one. Any hitting, kicking, etc. outside the structured class requires the child to sit down at the side for about 5 minutes (time length depends on the age of the child, how often it occurs, etc.). Often before class starts, new kids want to "shadow box". An instructor always steps in and says, we don't do this outside of class in case someone gets hurt. You can line up and kick the target bag while you're waiting.

Any line cutting is address immediately by the instructor. You can go to the back of the line (where it is now, not where you would have been). Pushing and shoving in line is addressed by separating the kids and putting the instigator to the back of the line.

Rank lining up. Again, the instructor has to step in. It's by rank belt only. You often see the same rank of kids who are siblings "racing" to be in the "first" place. As long as they don't push, whoever gets there first, is in the first place. If someone brings a new kids to class, they can choose to be in the back with the nobelts. We do sometimes move a little kid up in the front so they can see if they are having problems with something.

Parents yelling out. This one absolutely amazes me. Our master instructor would have been on them in an instant. "sir or maam, that is very disruptive to our class. If you can't remain quiet, you need to leave."

Overall, the instructor needs to intervene. Sit the child/children out when they misbehaving, explaining what they did wrong. If the parents don't like it, they can go elsewhere. Obviously, these 2 kids are disrupting the entire program. The instructor will lose a much greater amount of students if all students think they can act like this.

Sorry it's such a harsh stance, but it's my opinion.

 

[sha_lyn]

I don't have much time right now to respond, but I just wanted to say thanks to everyone, and answer a couple of questions/clear up a couple of points.

We are in a very small school that hold classes 3X a week. DD attends Mon and Wed. The 2 boys in question on Mon and Thurs.
DD and the older boy are both orange belts, but we also line up by seniority within each rank.

the training we were at where the pushing and "falling" took place was with most of schools students (all ages and ranks) in a public park. Our instructor really could not see the back of the line, and he did have a bit of distraction with his 3 yr old (his sitter (me) was busy training. Our Olympic training is less structured than our regular training. We are doing "conditioning" work like running, relay races et.

well I'll pop back in later

Thanks guys/gals ... thanks for the honest answer tkd lisa. I won't go into detail, but usually class is very structured and he is on top of things. However I think our instructor is a bit distracted with a near tragedy in his family.




OH BTW

 

[KathyFP]

The behavior must be addressed.

1. The other children should not be exposed to the distraction nor should they see this is behavior that is acceptable.

2. The biys need to understand that they will be held accountable to their behaviors and negative behaviors will not be reinforced.

 

[piratesmate]

We're a TKD family, too. I have to say that I'm with Lisa on this. The rules at our dojang are about the same as she described. I would imagine that they are about the same most places. I think what's different here is that the rules are either not enforced or not consistent.

I've never seen a situation get to the place this one is at. The instructors intervene on a regular basis. There was one student who continued to act out when he thought the instructor wasn't watching . . . . for every class after that one of the asst instructors or adult upper belts was assigned one-on-one. The student did eventually "shape up" - but would have been asked not to return if necessary.

Our school runs special training days or weekends where there are large numbers of students. Discipline is usually tighter at those events than usual. The owner/head instructor really makes use of the higher belts. He runs an instructor program that is open to anyone age 14 & up with a green belt or higher. (that's the 5th level in TKD)

Frankly, if behavior like this was tolerated where DD took classes, we'd find another school....either that or have a LONG talk with DS (he's one of the instructors - 4th degree black belt age 22 )

 

[sha_lyn]

UPDATE


Well I had a great talk with our master today. He said I confirmed some of his suspecions, and that he has tried to correct the moms medling etc during class without any improvment. He really felt bad for not seeing how big the problem really is.

Our studio is so small that our waiting/viewing room only holds about 5 people, so often the parents spill out into the area around where the students work out. This mom usually parks herself right on the edge of the workout floor. He has made an offer on buying the building, and he wouldn't renew the lease for the office on the other side. This would give us plenty of room for a waiting room, offices etc. another option he has looked at is moving some of the classes to the new rec dept that the city I live in is building.

We came up with the the idea of either sending out an e mail, handing out a flier etc, with a reminder of DoJang rules. Then once the rules for kids and parents are clearly in print, he would feel more comfortable with approaching the mom one on one with the problems.

thanks guys for giving me the push I needed to bring this up.

 

[sha_lyn]

bump

 

[Mishetta]

Those boys are trouble with a capital "T" & the parents are even worst from what you described. Anyway, may I bring something else to light here which has not been mentioned. AND THIS DOES NOT CONDONE THE FACT THAT THESE KIDS ARE BULLIES OR ACTING LIKE UNCONTROLLABLE SPOILED BRATS...

My DS was 5 y/o when he was diagnosed with ADHD. At the time, we didn't want to hear about "pills" so the psychiatrist strongly recommended DS taking a Karate class because it emphasizes strong self discipline. Well, I think that psychiatrist needed a "shrink" because we did as we were prompted too...we enrolled our "out of control" son in Karate & he acted a lot like those bullies you were complaining about! My DH & I were absolutely mortified by DS's behavior but no type of punishment seemed to matter. My DS had uncontrollable impulses which led him to do a lot of what you described.

Fast forward 3.5 years later & he's been on meds for 2 years now (thank God) & life is so much better.....but I wondered if these boys also suffer from the same neurological disorder & therefore being so disruptive & being bullies in class?? Perhaps their "psycho" psychiatrist recommended these children take Karate? Trust me, it doesn't teach them BEANS if they are ADHD!

 

[piratesmate]

Actually it is not uncommon for psychiatrists/phsychologists to recommend martial arts training for children with ADD/ADHD. For many children it is extremely helpful. For others, medication is needed before the children can control themselves enough to benefit. I'm sorry that it didn't work for DS and am very glad that the meds have proved to be helpful.

One of the reasons martial arts training is suggested is the strong self-discipline emphasis. But it is also usually assumed that there will be strict discipline in the dojang. (due to insurance/legal issues if no other reason) A sense of respect & rapport with the teacher are also extremely important.

It may not be the answer for some children, but it does help others.

 

[tkd lisa]

I'm with Pirate's mate on this one too. I could almost always tell when a kids was referred to our dojang by a therapist. It does help sometimes. If I suspect it, I usually talk to the parents to confirm, then mention that they should let the master know, because it helps us deal with the kids better.

My favorite story on this was a kid with really bad self esteem issues. He was very heavy (couldn't raise his leg more than an inch or two off the ground), and wouldn't look at you. Therapist recommended martial arts. One day (about 8 months after he started), he came to me before a test and asked me to check his form. He looked me in the eye, did his form perfectly! I praised him to high heaven, told him how much he had improved. One of my best memories as an instructor.