Update on Roofing Accident.

Stepping in very gingerly here.

What about a learning curve? For example, premarin was tested well enough initially to declare its safety, but as further studies were done, we discovered a very low, but present increased risk for breast cancer. Should the drug companies be sued for something they didn't know? Should the release of drugs be held until all possible testing of all possible side effects be researched? How would that effect the people who desire the "orphan drug bills?"

I am not familiar with all of the thimerosol story, but if the manufacturers knew that the additive had a link to autism but believed profit was more important, then they should be held accountable, but if it was something that could not be determined, then should they not be held accountable?
 
I am not familiar with all of the thimerosol story, but if the manufacturers knew that the additive had a link to autism but believed profit was more important, then they should be held accountable, but if it was something that could not be determined, then should they not be held accountable?
Long story short, multiple studies conducted across the globe envolving millions of children has shown no link between Thimerosal and childhood autism. These studies looked at large groups of child who did, and didn't, recieve vaccinations containing Thimerosal and compared the rates of autism. They find no difference in the rates. Unfortunately, I learned long ago that all the science in the world can't overcome public opinion when people "just know" that something's true.

In a related note, I saw an article in our local paper a few weeks ago that noted that the Michigan department of health reports that cases of Whooping Cough (fatal in some children) are up 57% across the state over the same period in 2003. Michigan isn't alone... all states in the region are reporting significant increases. Though the number of cases isn't large enough yet to scientificially determine a reason for the increase, the fact that more parents are deciding to withhold vaccinating their kids (like friends of ours) over anti-vaccine hysteria is a very likely part of it.

http://www.michigan.gov/mdch/0,1607,7-132-8347-101021--M_2001_9,00.html
 
Wow Dawn, I don't know what you've done to cause such hatred from a couple of people here but I think I'd start using that IGNORE feature if I were you! Talk about some nasty people/posts. :(
BTW I agreed with your ORIGINAL POST. Whether you were just looking for a pat on your back or not, you were right! ;)

Now go away all you Dawn haters! Quit trying to turn this into something it isn't.
 
Dawn, When I was 15 my father died in a horrible car accident.
The next morning I opened the paper and saw what my Mom had been trying to shield us kids from.

I know my dads death was news and yes front page news but seeing it in the newspaper was horrible. I am 44 yrs old and still have never forgotten it. If a news reported had called our home I would have wanted to kill them. HONEST !!!

Dawn, I stand up and applaud you for calling the news station.
There is a time and place for everything. Hours after the death of a loved one is not the right time. This coming from experence.
 

Originally posted by Geoff_M
In a related note, I saw an article in our local paper a few weeks ago that noted that the Michigan department of health reports that cases of Whooping Cough (fatal in some children) are up 57% across the state over the same period in 2003. Michigan isn't alone... all states in the region are reporting significant increases. Though the number of cases isn't large enough yet to scientificially determine a reason for the increase, the fact that more parents are deciding to withhold vaccinating their kids (like friends of ours) over anti-vaccine hysteria is a very likely part of it.

http://www.michigan.gov/mdch/0,1607,7-132-8347-101021--M_2001_9,00.html

The UK had a similar experience 10 to 20 years ago when parents were allowed to forego the Pertussis vaccine for their children. What resulted was a large population of unimmunized children and a severe increase in Whooping Cough illness and death. Of course there were/are some problems with the vaccine but the problems in no way approach the problems caused by a large unimmunized population. There is an anti vaccine hysteria and vaccines get blamed for everything. I can recall car pooling to a private Montessori School with a newborn in my car only to find out that this mother didn't believe in vaccination and the nuns that ran the school respected her point of view. I went ballistic. One assumes that by the time children are of school age that they are immunized. The sisters quickly reversed their stance and the woman found another mode of transportation for her children. I felt that if she is "so committed" to her wacky ideas she should have at least had the decency to tell me.
 
Originally posted by missyc
Wow Dawn, I don't know what you've done to cause such hatred from a couple of people here but I think I'd start using that IGNORE feature if I were you! Talk about some nasty people/posts. :(
BTW I agreed with your ORIGINAL POST. Whether you were just looking for a pat on your back or not, you were right! ;)

Now go away all you Dawn haters! Quit trying to turn this into something it isn't.

Its a mystery to me! I looked in the mirror this morning and I might be having a bad hair day, but I don't have horns.
 
Thimerisol is only in flu vaccines which are not individually packaged. And, the Govt. research, from the IOM, which is often cited, and heralded by drug manufacturers, and supported by them, does not take into consideration the private research which does indicate a relationship between the substance and the disorder. And, yes, the manufacturers did have knowledge of the problem, stemming back to pre WWII, when tests were conducted on humans. But, Congress has given vaccine manufacturers protection from liability, notwithstanding evidence that a link exists.

Sure, is there a difference of opinion as to whether a link exists or not, yes. Is there a way for these families to place their evidence in front of a fact finder, not really.

It is a pretty easy equation. Thimerisol equals mercury. Autism mirrors mercury poisoning. There is a number of children who have a genetic disposition to eliminating mercury from their system. By the time the child ages into late toddler years, the child's system adapts, and learns to eliminate the waste. However, during the young years, the child's body does not know how to get rid of the mercury.

Thimerisol, being nearly 50% ethyl mercury, an organic mercury compound, is/was injected into children along with the vaccines. (while thimerisol is not allowed into childhood vaccines anymore in the US, the us allows it to be placed into the vaccines we send over seas) This is not to say that all autism is related to mercury, but, those cases where there is a clear history of a normal developing child, and, immediately after vaccines in the 2nd and 3rd year, MMR among others, the child immediately and drastically withdraws into an autistic state, the evidence could be compelling. Of course, when one of the drug companies who was involved in the vaccines earned a profit of about 6 billion dollars, in a quarter of a year, there is an awful lot of influence being spread around.
 
Originally posted by dennis99ss
Thimerisol is only in flu vaccines which are not individually packaged. And, the Govt. research, from the IOM, which is often cited, and heralded by drug manufacturers, and supported by them, does not take into consideration the private research which does indicate a relationship between the substance and the disorder. And, yes, the manufacturers did have knowledge of the problem, stemming back to pre WWII, when tests were conducted on humans. But, Congress has given vaccine manufacturers protection from liability, notwithstanding evidence that a link exists.

Sure, is there a difference of opinion as to whether a link exists or not, yes. Is there a way for these families to place their evidence in front of a fact finder, not really.

.

The great majority of providers use the vaccine in 10 dose vials; often because you can squeeze a half dose out of the vial and it is considerably cheaper. In all of the years that I have given flu vaccine, there has been only one year that we were able to get individually packaged flu vaccine. Its expensive. And considering that children require two split doses, it will most likely come from a 10 dose vial, otherwise, half of a prepackaged injection would be wasted. The families with autistic children's evidence, while heart felt does not constitute a scientific study.
 
It is a pretty easy equation. Thimerisol equals mercury.
That's like saying table salt = chlorine gas.

Autism mirrors mercury poisoning.
Only in the respect that both envolve abnormal functioning of the brain. Mercury poisioning victims show symptoms that go way beyond impairment of cerebral functions. So, why do autistic kids only exhibit one kind of symptom that's akin to mercury poisoning but none of the other symptoms. Why do kids with documented mercury poisioning not act like kids with autism?

Thimerisol, being nearly 50% ethyl mercury, an organic mercury compound, is/was injected into children along with the vaccines.
And all the mercury that was in all of the childhood vaccines combined was less than the average amount of mercury found in a single can of tuna!

(while thimerisol is not allowed into childhood vaccines anymore in the US, the us allows it to be placed into the vaccines we send over seas)
No, it wasn't banned. Vaccine makers voluntarily removed it over fears of junk science being used against them in the court rooms of America and the fact that they know that all of the scientific research that disproves the notion wouldn't make a hill-of-beans of difference when it came to freaked-out moms worried about their kids becoming autistic.

This is not to say that all autism is related to mercury, but, those cases where there is a clear history of a normal developing child, and, immediately after vaccines in the 2nd and 3rd year, MMR among others, the child immediately and drastically withdraws into an autistic state, the evidence could be compelling.
Hmmm, studies show that most people that die drank water within 48 hours before they croaked... so it must be the water!!! That's the primary age that signs of autism are detected... both in kids that get vaccinated and those that don't. That doesn't make the relationship causal.

I don't believe your science, you don't believe mine.
Your "science" ain't science. Show me some peer reviewed studies, who'd results can be replicated, that show a causal link between childhood vaccinations and autism. That's the definition of scientific proof. But you can believe anything you like.

I've got an open mind about this... I really do. If a major study were published tomorrow that announced that there was in fact a connection... and follow up work produced the same results, I'd agree that the relationship was causal. The difference is that in my case it's not about "believing". It's about following the rules of science.

For a quick course in the scientifc process go here.
 
Wrong you do not have an open mind. If you did, you would admit that scientific studies have not been fully completed, at the request of the gov't and the drug funded study associations. The Govt backed studies are not truly neutral, they are filled with doctors and researchers with grants from the drug companies.

You are wrong on the autism/mercury symptoms. They mirror each other at over a 90% rate.

You are wrong that the mercury is about the same in a can of tuna. You are dealing with babies less than 30 pounds. You are giving them multi-injections, some from multi-vial vaccines, where the mercury accumulates at the bottom of the vial. Further, if the genetic makeup does not allow the child to deal with the mercury, it builds and builds.

The amount of mercury, in the vaccines, would be equal to an amount that would be considered poison in an adult. The amount, when combined, is above the govt's safety level. Yet, the drug mfgrs kept on putting it in the vaccines.

You are wrong about why Thimerisol was pulled. It was pulled because the House was holding hearings, and Rep. Burton was nearing having the numbers to pass a law which would damage the drug mfgrs. Due to govt. pressure, the vaccines were cleaned up. Yet, they still use it for those in Africa, etc.

What junk science, the copurt rooms of america have been shut down for these people, due to the laws protecting their actions.

You are wrong about the signs of autism. There are cases of autism which are immediately detected. There are others, which are seen, which transform a normal, healthy child, into a disabled one. I have video tapes of children, a week before a major vaccine round was received, running down the hall, communicating, talking to parents, etc. Interacting, without the compulsive behavior. Within days after the dose of vaccine that sent the mercury levels over the top, the child regressed into a different world.

This is not your typical genetic malady. It is a genetic predisposition to mercury, which, when injected with thimerisol, which is 50% mercury, causes the reaction. It is one of the reasons, that, in some instances, chealation therapy appears to work. It attempts to counteract the mercury in the system.

Further, why do some of these kids have mercury findings in their hair, etc. It is because they were injected with it.

The causal relationship cannot be shown with tests of the general population. Because the relationship is related to children with a predisposition to mercury sensitivity, tests of the general public are not a true indication of the real group of children you are looking at.

Whatever, thankls to the govt, and for a short time the homeland security bill, the courts will probably never see this battle. Why would protections for thimerisol be included in the homeland security bill, of course, they were removed several months later, but, why would cases involving autistic kids be barred from suit under the homeland security bill, unless some big money wanted the protection.
 
Dawn, I read your post about the young man's death. Horrific.

It was very good of you to contact the editor and to update us. I'm glad he is addressing the situation.
 
Originally posted by Geoff_M
I've got an open mind about this... I really do. If a major study were published tomorrow that announced that there was in fact a connection... and follow up work produced the same results, I'd agree that the relationship was causal. The difference is that in my case it's not about "believing". It's about following the rules of science.

For a quick course in the scientifc process go here.

Geoff, I just want to say that you have infinately more patience than I do.
 
Wrong you do not have an open mind. If you did, you would admit that scientific studies have not been fully completed, at the request of the gov't and the drug funded study associations. The Govt backed studies are not truly neutral, they are filled with doctors and researchers with grants from the drug companies.
Well, when you start mixing science with conspiracy theory, this debate becomes a moot point. To you the research will not be "fully complete" as long as studies continue to fail to confirm your belief.

You are wrong on the autism/mercury symptoms. They mirror each other at over a 90% rate.
You're right... if you go by all the supposed cut-n-pasted comparisons found on anti-vaccine web sites around the Internet. But if you visit look at medical sites, without an ax to grind about vaccines or dental filings, and research mercury poisoning you'll see a different story. Here's an example from eMedicine.com: http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/topic813.htm You'll note that the disorder that mercury poisoning most closely mimics is: "Parkinson disease, senile dementia, metabolic encephalopathy, depression, or Alzheimer disease." If autism is a 90% dead-ringer for mercury poisoning, then why don't it make the list on sites like eMedicine?

The amount of mercury, in the vaccines, would be equal to an amount that would be considered poison in an adult. The amount, when combined, is above the govt's safety level. Yet, the drug mfgrs kept on putting it in the vaccines.
Sorry, even the AMA doesn't say that is true. The AMA said that, in theory, the amount of mercury in childhood vaccinations could exceed safety guidelines for mercury exposure for a small child, not an adult. For starters, the FDA's formula for calculating safe exposure levels is defined as the minimum exposure level needed to show a harmful effect... and then divides that amount by a "safety factor" of 10. Also, the theory hasn't bourne out in real world testing.

You are wrong about why Thimerisol was pulled. It was pulled because the House was holding hearings, and Rep. Burton was nearing having the numbers to pass a law which would damage the drug mfgrs. Due to govt. pressure, the vaccines were cleaned up.
Ummm, no the FDA issued a report in 1999 that said that Thimerosal "might" be a problem in theory. As a result the American Academy of Pediatrics asked vaccine makers to voluntarily remove Thimerosal as a precaution. The CDC then commissioned the NIH to conduct studies looking into the matter. They did, and surprise-surprise, they found no link. Neither the FDA, nor any other US regulatory agency has "banned" the use of Thimerosal. As for the hearings, again PR "pressure" doesn't equal science.

What junk science, the copurt rooms of america have been shut down for these people, due to the laws protecting their actions.
Sadly, I wish your statement was true. Some restrictions have been placed on the suitability of scientific witnesses, but as long as "some" members of the scientific community think an idea "might" be true it can still get in.

It is a genetic predisposition to mercury, which, when injected with thimerisol, which is 50% mercury, causes the reaction.
Wrong again... The molecular equation for it is: C<sub>9</sub>H<sub>9</sub>HgO<sub>2</sub>SNa "Hg" is Mercury. It also contains Carbon, Sulfur, Oxygen, Hydrogen, and Sodium.
http://allergies.about.com/library/chem/blmsds-thimerosal.htm

It may be true that half the molecular weight is mercury, but that's like saying a semi-trailer with nothing in it but a cubic foot of lead is "almost totally lead" becuase the lead weighs a lot more than the air that fills the rest of the trailer. In vaccines that still contain Thimerisol, the mercury content is around 1 part per million, or 0.0002%.

Further, why do some of these kids have mercury findings in their hair, etc. It is because they were injected with it.
Because... mercury is found all around us. Some of it is natural and some of it is "man-made" and gets into our food supply. We all have varying levels of mercury, lead, arsenic, etc. in our bodies.

The causal relationship cannot be shown with tests of the general population. Because the relationship is related to children with a predisposition to mercury sensitivity, tests of the general public are not a true indication of the real group of children you are looking at.
Any credibility you had just went out the window with that statement. That's complete bull cookies. Let's take the recent example of the withdrawl of Vioxx of the market due to the increased risk of cardiac events with those on the drug. The "general public" in the study didn't have a problem with Vioxx... they were fine with the drug. But a small portion of the patients (we'll use your terminology and call them the "sensitive" group) did have heart attacks and such. When the safety monitors for the study looked at the group taking Vioxx and the gruop that was taking a placebo, they detected a small but noticable difference in the number of people having cardiac events between the groups. The findings were confirmed in another similar study... and Merck pulled the drug off the market. That's how "science" works. Researchers from vaccine makers, the US government, and the UN's World Health Organization have all done like studies across seveal continients that looked a millions of children with regard to vacciniations and childhood autism, and they conclusively show no link.

Whatever, thankls to the govt, and for a short time the homeland security bill, the courts will probably never see this battle. Why would protections for thimerisol be included in the homeland security bill, of course, they were removed several months later, but, why would cases involving autistic kids be barred from suit under the homeland security bill, unless some big money wanted the protection.
If vaccines were "big money" in the US the number of vaccine makers wouldn't have declined in the past decades and we wouldn't have to rely on makers in the UK for our flu vaccine.

To end, I would also like to ask you for the data that shows a decline in the number of autism cases that's taken place since Thimerosal was removed en masse from childhood vaccines in the US in 1999. We should see measureable evidence of that if your belief is true, no?
 
According to new research from Northeastern University pharmacy professor Richard Deth and colleagues from the University of Nebraska, Tufts, and Johns Hopkins University, there is an apparent link between exposure to certain neurodevelopmental toxins and an increased possibility of developing neurological disorders including autism and attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder. The research – the first to offer an explanation for possible causes of two increasingly common childhood neurological disorders – is published today in the April 2004 issue of the journal Molecular Psychiatry.

Though some speculation exists regarding this link, Deth and his colleagues found that exposure to toxins, such as ethanol and heavy metals (including lead, aluminum and the ethylmercury-containing preservative thimerosal) potently interrupt growth factor signaling, causing adverse effects on methylation reactions (i.e. the transfer of carbon atoms). Methylation, in turn, plays a significant role in regulating normal DNA function and gene expression, and is critical to proper neurological development in infants and children. Scientists and practitioners have identified an increase in diagnoses of autism and ADHD in particular, though the reasons why are largely unknown.

In their work, the scientists found that insulin-like growth factor-1 (IGF-1) and the neurotransmitter dopamine both stimulated folate-dependent methylation pathways in neuronal cells. At the same time they noted that compounds like thimerosal, ethanol and metals (like lead and mercury) effectively inhibited these same biochemical pathways at concentrations that are typically found following vaccination or other sources of exposure. By better understanding what happens when infants and children are exposed to these materials, the work of Deth and his colleagues helps to explain how environmental contact with metals and administration of certain vaccines may lead to serious disorders that manifest themselves during childhood, including autism and ADHD.

“Scientists certainly acknowledge that exposure to neurotoxins like ethanol and heavy metals can cause developmental disorders, but until now, the precise mechanisms underlying their toxicity have not been known,” said Deth. “The recent increase in the incidence of autism led us to speculate that environmental exposures, including vaccine additives might contribute to the triggering of this disorder.”

Thimerosal, which was largely phased out in the U.S. and in Europe starting in 2000,was often used for its preservative abilities in multi-dose units of vaccines for diseases like hepatitis, whooping cough, tetanus and diphtheria. Today, most vaccines carry only trace amounts of it, according to the CDC. But in larger, multi-dose vials of these vaccines, often shipped to and used in third world countries, thimerosal is still very common. Multi-dose flu vaccines still contain thimerosal.

Additionally, the scientists recently obtained more insight into the mechanism by which thimerosal interferes with folate-dependent methylation. It acts by inhibiting the biosynthesis of the active form of vitamin B12 (methylcobalamin), which is of particular interest because doctors treating autistic kids are having good success with the administration of methycobalamin.

Northeastern University, a private research institution located in Boston, Massachusetts, is a world leader in practice-oriented education. Building on its flagship cooperative education program, Northeastern links classroom learning with workplace experience and integrates professional preparation with study in the liberal arts and sciences. U.S. News & World Report, in its annual guide America’s Best Colleges, 2003, ranked Northeastern University number one in the country among programs that “require or encourage students to apply what they’re learning in the classroom out in the real world.” In addition, Northeastern's career services was top ranked by Kaplan Newsweek's “Unofficial Insiders Guide to the 320 Most Interesting Colleges and Universities," 2003 edition. For more information, please visit: http://www.northeastern.edu




But, at least you admit that Thimerisol contains mercury, and that it is made up of nearly 50% mercury.

At least you admit that the AMA feels mercury is bad, and that injecting it into children could be harmful.

Sorry to hear you follow the NIH blindly, when it is supported by the makers of the product into which they are to be testing. Their findings are held in such a high regard in this instance, as you can see.

I expect even you would give due credit to Boyd Haley, and not refer to his work as junk science, or, maybe you will.


"Unfortunately, I believe the findings announced in the May 18th IOM report are heavily biased, and unrepresentative of all the available scientific and medical research," stated Chairman Burton. "I think it is highly irresponsible for the IOM Immunization Safety Review Committee to purport definitive findings to the American public, which are based on selective scientific studies that are greatly flawed to begin with."

Congresswoman Watson stated, "Just because there is not a preponderance of scientific proof, does not mean that we should discontinue investigations into the effects of mercury containing thimerosal. Unbiased researchers are continuing to produce results that challenge the IOM findings." The Congresswoman further noted that, "The IOM did not make the statement that mercury injected into the body is helpful. Mercury is mercury, and it is a neuro-toxic substance (among other bad things) - name one beneficial use in the human body."

Said Congressman Weldon, "The IOM report is premature, perhaps perilously reliant on epidemiology, based on preliminary incomplete information, and may ultimately be repudiated. This report will not deter me from my commitment to seeing that this is fully investigated, nor will it put to rest the concerns of parents who believe their children were harmed by mercury-containing vaccines or the MMR vaccine."

The recently released IOM report is the eighth and final in a series designed to examine the safety of vaccines that contain the mercury-based preservative, thimerosal. In their latest report, the IOM Committee concludes, "The body of epidemiological evidence favors the rejection of a causal relationship between thimerosal-containing vaccines and autism." This statement represents a significant change from the Committee's finding in their 2001 report, which called such a causal relationship, "biologically plausible." The Committee based its final conclusions on their review of approximately 10 previously conducted epidemiological studies. Of those roughly 10 studies, 5 reported probable links between thimerosal-containing vaccines and autism, yet those 5 were summarily dismissed because the Committee determined the manner in which they were conducted was flawed.
 
Nealymouse, my situation was EXACTLY the same as yours, except I was 9 when my dad died in the car accident. I can still remember the pictures in the papers and the enquiring newpaper people trying to talk to my family. So, like you, I have very strong feeling about reporters trying to nail a story at the grieving family's expense.

Dawn, don't let the detractors get to you. I agree with your premise in the ORIGINAL thoughts of this thread - the reporter was WAY out of line. How the heck we got to lawsuits and the flu vaccine is beyond me!
 
Originally posted by Sandy V.
Nealymouse, my situation was EXACTLY

Nealymouse and Sandy; I can only say that must have only compounded your grief. How awful.
 
Well thankgoodness we're finally back on topic! I was just going to "unsubscribe" to this thread so I didn't have to bother deleting any more e-mail notifications about new postings, guess now I won't. :p
 
but don't you see the clear connection, roofing accident, flu vaccine........;)

I promise to be quiet, and therefore, back to the op's post.
 
Originally posted by dennis99ss
but don't you see the clear connection, roofing accident, flu vaccine........;)

I promise to be quiet, and therefore, back to the op's post.

:laughing:
 


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