United Auto Workers Union

[jodifla]

One in ten.....but how directly are they linked? Would that be auto insurers....car wash operators....everything linked to *any* type of auto, and not just one made in the US.

Here's the thing, we could talk about this til the cows come home. They'll get their bailout, and it will be a *big* one.....

The talk of tying this bailout money to green technology is silly talk. That takes years and years to develop....and it takes billions of dollars to develop. They need billions now just to keep the lights on.

Oh well, DH and I will just keep doing what we've been doing....living way beneath our means and saving as much as we possibly can while enjoying life as much as we possibly can . We're just waiting for the day when our government has spent itself into so much debt that we can't service our debt.....we've got another 15-20 years until we get there. If we're lucky.

Think what we're going through now is fun? Just wait......

auto dealers, auto suppliers, all the restaurants and shops around all those big auto plants, firms that handle marketing, public relations, real estate, all the doctors and nurses and hospitals that care for those GM Ford Chrysler workers, all the school teachers that teach their kids when the auto workers move....even NW is reeling specifically from autos cuts.

Not to mention the steel industry.


It goes on and on and on....It's hard to fathom how big these industries are.

Ford, GM and Chrysler aren't like businesses. They are like college campuses. Even their suppliers have businesses that look like a

 

[DisMN]

auto dealers, auto suppliers, all the restaurants and shops around all those big auto plants, firms that handle marketing, public relations, real estate, all the doctors and nurses and hospitals that care for those GM Ford Chrysler workers, all the school teachers that teach their kids when the auto workers move....even NW is reeling specifically from autos cuts.

Not to mention the steel industry.


It goes on and on and on....It's hard to fathom how big these industries are.

Ford, GM and Chrysler aren't like businesses. They are like college campuses. Even their suppliers have businesses that look like a

Please DO mention the steel industry. In the last 8 weeks the company DH works for has gone from having unlimited overtime......to the current situation of 4 day work weeks. That's a very fast and dramatic downturn compared to other times in history when business has been slow.

Let me put it another way, what we're experiencing right now in my community isn't a minor slowdown, this seems to be a sudden and catastrophic loss of steel purchase agreements. If car companies go down the tubes, so will a lot of other companies who are suppliers or otherwise linked to the automobile industry.

I do think many people fail to consider how many companies and businesses are interconnected.

 

[Colleen27]

One in ten.....but how directly are they linked? Would that be auto insurers....car wash operators....everything linked to *any* type of auto, and not just one made in the US.

It isn't that narrow. My DH & I run a small home improvement company in the Detroit area; about half our customers are employed either by one of the Big 3 directly or by one of the scores of smaller companies that manufacture parts for the automakers. If we lose that business, we have to let people go. We live in a town that lives and dies on pleasure boating; most of the people who dock their boats here are blue collar auto workers looking for an affordable place to keep their fishing boats. Between gas prices and layoffs, businesses here are already seeing lean times that will only get worse. A close friend of mine is a dental receptionist; she figures about 80% of her office's customers have insurance through one of the automakers. And so it goes - hotels fill their rooms with traveling execs and managers attending meetings at Big 3 headquarters, restaurants and bars exist just to serve the workers from nearby plants, salons and gyms and childcare centers and dozens of other service businesses built on a customer base of auto workers.

Like Linda said, what we're talking about here is trickle down bankruptcy.

 

[#1hockeymom]

*pink slipped/laid off teacher here* Too many people left the area, WAY too many teachers were pink slipped from many districts. I believe Detroit schools laid off over 500? I know Flint still has 100 pink slipped; all related to the auto industry. DH's pay is based on dealership car shop work. People are driving in unsafe vehicles, making do, because of their own job cuts and money cuts. Its a vicious circle around here and I don't see the end.

 

[#1hockeymom]

auto dealers, auto suppliers, all the restaurants and shops around all those big auto plants, firms that handle marketing, public relations, real estate, all the doctors and nurses and hospitals that care for those GM Ford Chrysler workers, all the school teachers that teach their kids when the auto workers move....even NW is reeling specifically from autos cuts.

Not to mention the steel industry.


It goes on and on and on....It's hard to fathom how big these industries are.

Ford, GM and Chrysler aren't like businesses. They are like college campuses. Even their suppliers have businesses that look like a

Great analogy. I think I remember you saying, years ago, that you were from Michigan/tri county area originally. You "get" it.

 

[dvcgirl]

Okay, if you're going to get into adding small town businesses all over the upper mid-west, then I get how we get close to 1 in 10. But listen, in my small town in NJ, the sixth largest builder in the US is headquartered. They've laid off people in huge numbers and that has greatly affected the restaurants downtown. Fort Monmouth is going to be closing in another few years....that will have a huge impact on local businesses. Those business owners are going to have to adapt, or they're not going to make it.

I would argue that the mid-west is *too* linked to this single industry and therefore seems to be dying a slow death. You guys have been in a recession for years. Your housing values have been stagnant for years before the big downturn. All because the US auto industry isn't doing well. Or because plants are closing down and moved to Mexico or whatever. It hasn't done well in the best of times, and so I just don't get how we turn them around now.

We've got to figure out a way to reinvigorate the mid-west.....and diversify its economy away from the auto industry. We've got to figure out a way to get people to want to move back to the mid-west to settle down and raise families again to keep your housing values moving up.

I get that we need to fix the mid-west, but I don't think we fix it by pouring billions and billions of tax payer dollars into GM specifically which has so many problems that we may lose every penny of that money.

 

[minnie61650]

..........

I get that we need to fix the mid-west, but I don't think we fix it by pouring billions and billions of tax payer dollars into GM specifically which has so many problems that we may lose every penny of that money.

That was the way many felt in 1979 when Lee Iacco & President Carter worked out a Federal loan guarantee to save Chrysler from going under.

President Jimmy Carter put his pen to the law on January 7, Chrysler, which had lost $1.1 billion in 1979, was strutting with $1.5 billion in federal loan guarantees and an accompanying $2 billion in concessions from labor, dealers and other creditors. Iacocca's pitch sealed the deal. He said that Chrysler's failure--thought to be inevitable without government support--would end up costing the feds more in unemployment benefits than it would cost to back Chrylser's debt. .............By 1983, the company paid back the loans years in advance and made $500 million.

Link:

http://www.forbes.com/2002/05/08/0508iacocca.html


I feel they need the loan to help buy a little time.

I think with a little time they can come back ...Not to what they once were but they can come back and make profits and be a vitil part of our economy once again.

JMHO

 

[dvcgirl]

I know the Iacocca story....and it's a great one. Now we need three of those.....within three months.

I guess part of my frustration with the auto makers is that the only way they make it.....is to pay off the veteran employees....who were making 30-50 bucks an hour (which is a salary you can live on), and replacing them with employees making $14.50 an hour with a significantly smaller benefits package.

How do we revitalize the mid-west with those kinds of salaries?

 

[Loverly]

I know the Iacocca story....and it's a great one. Now we need three of those.....within three months.

I guess part of my frustration with the auto makers is that the only way they make it.....is to pay off the veteran employees....who were making 30-50 bucks an hour (which is a salary you can live on), ?

Do you really think a factory worker should make $30-$50 an hour?
That is what caused the downfall of the American auto industry

 

[rie'smom]

My family does their part to help American auto makers.

I went through the foreign car thing but in the end, I realized that I love Chrysler. That's all I've had for the last 15 years. My son has a Ford truck and a Mustang, my other son has a Ford Truck and a Mustang, and my husband has a Chevy. When my daughter gets her first car in 2010, it will be American too-probably a Hummer because it's the closest thing to a Tank that is made for the consumer!!!

 

[dvcgirl]

Do you really think a factory worker should make $30-$50 an hour?
That is what caused the downfall of the American auto industry

No, not if it's unskilled labor. My point was that if the midwest is doing so poorly before this downturn with people making 30-50 bucks an hour....how will they do when the factory workers are making 15-20 bucks an hour.

 

[sarasotamom]

It can be said in a nutshell what has killed the US auto industry. The Union.

That being said, we can not let the industry die. The biggest problem they have is the retirement they must pay. I do not know if they can ever overcome this.

What bothers me about all the bailouts is the fact that they keep the same management that made these companies fail. AIG and Freddie and Fannie are still having troulbles despite the bailout. The banks are using the money to buy other banks, not loan money that it was originally given for.

These bailouts need to have oversight. The guys on top must take paycuts and stop the big bonuses. Bonuses should be given for making a huge profit. When did they become a given for bankrupting a business?

 

[gottaluvPluto]

Have the these companies restructured? If so how? I want to know how they restructured before we give any money to them.

My husbands company had to restructure and he took a 60% pay cut and now he is only making $20 an hour. Yes, it hurt, but it was good for the company overall and it is working to stay afloat. Now, when the company turns around his pay will go up slowly.

 

[jodifla]

Have the these companies restructured? If so how? I want to know how they restructured before we give any money to them.

My husbands company had to restructure and he took a 60% pay cut and now he is only making $20 an hour. Yes, it hurt, but it was good for the company overall and it is working to stay afloat. Now, when the company turns around his pay will go up slowly.

Well, they redid their contracts with the UAW, but those kick in either next year or in 2010. So that doesn't help now.

 

[Colleen27]

I know the Iacocca story....and it's a great one. Now we need three of those.....within three months.

I guess part of my frustration with the auto makers is that the only way they make it.....is to pay off the veteran employees....who were making 30-50 bucks an hour (which is a salary you can live on), and replacing them with employees making $14.50 an hour with a significantly smaller benefits package.

How do we revitalize the mid-west with those kinds of salaries?

You may not realize it, being from a higher COL area, but even the new UAW wage/benefits package is livable around here. I posted on another thread about this - we live on the outskirts of the Detroit area and are currently in the market for a home. Our budget is around 50-60K, and we're only looking at houses with 3 bedrooms and a bonus room or 4 bedrooms (something larger than our current 1300sq ft, 3bed/2bath ranch). Even at the peak of the housing boom, starter homes could be had for under 100K.

The new union contracts hurt, but they hurt the worst for retirees who are seeing benefit cuts. New hires can do just fine starting out at $14.50.

 

[dvcgirl]

You may not realize it, being from a higher COL area, but even the new UAW wage/benefits package is livable around here. I posted on another thread about this - we live on the outskirts of the Detroit area and are currently in the market for a home. Our budget is around 50-60K, and we're only looking at houses with 3 bedrooms and a bonus room or 4 bedrooms (something larger than our current 1300sq ft, 3bed/2bath ranch). Even at the peak of the housing boom, starter homes could be had for under 100K.

The new union contracts hurt, but they hurt the worst for retirees who are seeing benefit cuts. New hires can do just fine starting out at $14.50.

Your budget for a *house* is 50-60K?

 

[Colleen27]

Your budget for a *house* is 50-60K?

Yes. We're paying cash this time and turning the house we currently live in (which we do have a mortgage on) into a rental. Right now, the front runners are an 1800 sq ft 1904 Victorian with a lot of the original detailing intact on a 1/2 acre; a 4 bedroom, 2600sq ft turn-of-the-century farmhouse on a full acre; and a 2800 sq ft, 5 bedroom 1880 Victorian with a water view on a 1/5 acre lot. They're all fixer-uppers, but mainly needing cosmetic work - we're only looking at homes that are structurally and mechanically sound and that are in good enough condition for us to live there while renovating/updating.

I like historic homes; if we were looking for something less unique, we could cut the budget a bit. We looked at a 4 bedroom/2 bath 70s split-level for $40K and a 3 bedroom ranch with a large bonus room for 35K, but decided we should hold out for something that fits my "dream home" mold since we don't plan to move again. And this isn't in an undesirable area; we live in a friendly small town with nationally recognized schools.

 

[dvcgirl]

Yes. We're paying cash this time and turning the house we currently live in (which we do have a mortgage on) into a rental. Right now, the front runners are an 1800 sq ft 1904 Victorian with a lot of the original detailing intact on a 1/2 acre; a 4 bedroom, 2600sq ft turn-of-the-century farmhouse on a full acre; and a 2800 sq ft, 5 bedroom 1880 Victorian with a water view on a 1/5 acre lot. They're all fixer-uppers, but mainly needing cosmetic work - we're only looking at homes that are structurally and mechanically sound and that are in good enough condition for us to live there while renovating/updating.

I like historic homes; if we were looking for something less unique, we could cut the budget a bit. We looked at a 4 bedroom/2 bath 70s split-level for $40K and a 3 bedroom ranch with a large bonus room for 35K, but decided we should hold out for something that fits my "dream home" mold since we don't plan to move again. And this isn't in an undesirable area; we live in a friendly small town with nationally recognized schools.

I guess with housing that cheap it would be possible to purchase a home making less than 50K a year combined income. What about other costs though. Groceries must be about the same.....gas, utilities. And while it's possibly to buy a home for 50-60K, there's still a family to raise, college to save for....retirement. How much can an area grow when everyone is making less than $20 an hour. Reminds me more of Orlando.....the only people who seemed to have money *came* there with money. Most of the workforce seems to be in the service industry where salaries aren't all that great.

Still, I would love to see some of this new "green technology" that we're going to be building end up manufactured in the upper mid-west. I mean, look at the silicon valley in CA. That area just sprung up thanks to the birth of the IT industry. Now it's a thriving area with very high incomes. A lot of wealth was built there. We need to direct businesses to the "rust belt" to give that part of the country a fighting chance.

 

[Colleen27]

I guess with housing that cheap it would be possible to purchase a home making less than 50K a year combined income. What about other costs though. Groceries must be about the same.....gas, utilities. And while it's possibly to buy a home for 50-60K, there's still a family to raise, college to save for....retirement. How much can an area grow when everyone is making less than $20 an hour. Reminds me more of Orlando.....the only people who seemed to have money *came* there with money. Most of the workforce seems to be in the service industry where salaries aren't all that great.

Still, I would love to see some of this new "green technology" that we're going to be building end up manufactured in the upper mid-west. I mean, look at the silicon valley in CA. That area just sprung up thanks to the birth of the IT industry. Now it's a thriving area with very high incomes. A lot of wealth was built there. We need to direct businesses to the "rust belt" to give that part of the country a fighting chance.

Yeah, saving is the big issue. Housing is cheap, which is nice because the jobs around here wouldn't support homeownership in a higher COL market, but everything else is going up and the transition from production to service is going to be a tough one. Not just here, but all over - most service jobs don't pay a living wage, and we're quickly becoming a nation without a production base.

The problem with green technology right now is that it is extremely expensive, which holds down demand. I suspect that it will take the outsourcing of much of that industry before it is competitively priced enough to get people to really embrace it. No industry can really afford to pay American workers any more, sadly. The American consumer is too used to the prices that come of third world labor.

 

[#1hockeymom]

Even in my area that didn't get the housing boom and price rise, houses can't be found that cheap. I do agree you can find a lot of house for the money right now due to so many foreclosures, but you're still going to have to have over 100k. I'm an hour and a half, give or take, north of Detroit. It is a buyers market, though. Houses that were low 400's a year ago are now near 200k.