Unfriendly Skies for Family

[momsully]

I fly almost every week for work and have two children (10 and 8) that fly frequently. We are often seperated on planes as we tend to book last minute trips so we are usually a couple of rows apart. The boys are good travelers and can self entertain.

Last Tuesday afternoon I was flying Orlando to Denver on United. I was in the bulkhead row and a lady boarded with two little girls. One of those girls (she was four) hopped into the seat next to me. We proceeded to have a nice chat as mom went down the aisle with her other daughter to row 5. Mom never made a big deal about it and neither did the child. Someone from row 5 did move to the middle sit in the bulkhead so her two girls could sit together. Older daughter was 8. Mom was still seated in the middle seat on the other side of the aisle and not directly with her girls. The girls were fine and mom was actually sleeping when I got up to go to the restroom.

On three of my last five flights their were children seperated from their parents. Flights are full now and there are less flights making it harder and harder to find empty seats. I think folks need to realize this can and does happen and to be prepared. But as bumbershoot said there is no reason to worry yourself sick over this. Just handle it calmly and it will all work out!

 

[chicagodisneyfan]

It would help if the more frequent traveler's in Group 1 understood why parents react so strongly to being separated and why we think it is idiotic that a computer program can not link a child with a parent so that in those cases where rearrangements are made they are kept together.

2) It is the law. Can't leave small children unattended in everyday life. In the car, at the library, at home. It is drilled into us that you don't leave your child unattened anywhere. "Megan's Law" for one example. It is one of the reason's new flyer's are so shocked and thrown for a loop when it happens. Everywhere else it is illegal.

.

Sorry, but that does not work. You are NOT leaving your child unattended - they are IN the same plane as you. They are not going to be murdered, kidnapped, have their residence broken into, scald themselves cooking lunch, etc.
No need to be "shocked and thrown for a loop". To me it is just more on an entitlement issue - my kids are tied to me and cannot be apart for a mere second.

If parents treated it as an adventure I am sure most children will be fine by themselves. I see kids travel alone ALL the time and they do great.

 

[DebbieB]

It would help if the more frequent traveler's in Group 1 understood why parents react so strongly to being separated and why we think it is idiotic that a computer program can not link a child with a parent so that in those cases where rearrangements are made they are kept together.

I totally understand why parents want to be with their children. I'm just speaking from the reality of the situation. Sometimes when there are equipment changes, there are only scattered seats left and there are no seats together. As much as I've flown in the past 5 years, I can't say I recall a situation that I witnessed where a small child ending up sitting without a parent/adult. Many times we have done musical chairs to make that happen. I've seen F/A's make announcements asking if 2 adults traveling together would be willing to separate to accomodate a family and someone did.

This whole story just doesn't ring true to me. I can't believe that they allowed a 2 year old to sit as a lap child (against FAA regs) rather than ask people to move around to open a seat next to the mom. If they did, then the person in the article should be filing a complaint with the FAA. There's also no way that there were no empty seats and they allowed an extra person on, those small prop planes have very specific weight & balance requirements, they frequently don't allow the full amount to board if they have to carry extra fuel.

 

[Jaymie]

I can't believe that they allowed a 2 year old to sit as a lap child (against FAA regs) rather than ask people to move around to open a seat next to the mom.

I wonder if the kid was maybe 23 months or a few days shy of their second bday.

Even though they can travel as a lap child up until 2, maybe the parents bought a seat anyways. I always do.

 

[dzorn]

A question for the parents - and I don't mean our regular parent posters but the ones posting on this thread who don't regularly post here...

If you did find yourselves seperated from your children on a flight, and couldn't get seats together, would you deplane and take a later flight potentially at your own cost to ensure seats together?

It would depend on how far away I would be from my DDs. I have one with special needs so if it is a good day and her Nintendo DS is charged it would not be not a problem. I would ask whoever was sitting with her to remind her when it needs to go off and on according to instructions for electronic equipment. She would play it the whole flight probably. If it is a bad day I would have to seriously consider it, but I would hope the airline would understand that she probably would not be able to follow safety instructions if needed. The youngest (8) would probably be OK if I checked on her a few times (she as issues herself though not as severe as her sister). Both DDs travel with small backpack that goes under the seat. These contain video games and a few snacks including suckers/gum for take off and landing, though I am not sure they would have any left for landing if I was not around to make sure they were not eaten within the first 30 minutes. I certainly know it is a possibility which is why they have the backpacks.

I hope I never have to find out. I check on our flights frequently and allow generous amounts of time to get to our gate. We seem to be one of the first there for our flight.

Denise in MI

 

[kaytieeldr]

It would help if the more frequent traveler's in Group 1 understood why parents react so strongly to being separated and why we think it is idiotic that a computer program can not link a child with a parent so that in those cases where rearrangements are made they are kept together.

1) Instinct. The mommy radar is active at all times. 24/7 Like I said in a previous post it is my job. If I don't know what is going on I can't help/fix/change their behaviour.

2) It is the law. Can't leave small children unattended in everyday life. In the car, at the library, at home. It is drilled into us that you don't leave your child unattened anywhere. "Megan's Law" for one example. It is one of the reason's new flyer's are so shocked and thrown for a loop when it happens. Everywhere else it is illegal.

3) Cultural. I would never expect other parents to have water for my child at a soccer game. I am expected to register my children for school not have the school district hunt me down etc. The little girl that was swiped a couple of weeks ago walking just a few blocks home. She was unattended and one commentator went off on the parents.

1) Respectfully, 'mommy radar' = the old 'eyes in the back of my head', where moms can sense what their kids are up to without being in visual range. Given that, 'mommy radar' should work even a few rows apart on an airplane - and if it doesn't, then getting up occasionally to check on one's child (as long as the seatbelt light is off) is reasonable. If that's not possible, it's not unreasonable to call a Flight Attendant once in a while and ask for assistance.

2) A child in a secure environment with up to a couple of hundred (or more) other people - e.g. an airplane - is not "unattended" in any manner.

3) Airline passengers are, for the most part, accommodating even though they will not give up their seats - sort of a "we're all in this together" cameraderie. And really, that tragedy a few weeks ago is in NO way comparable to having to sit several rows away from one's child in an airplane.

 

[kaytieeldr]

hesitation. However, I wouldn't give up an aisle seat for another parent for a middle or window, that wouldn't work for me.

Isn't that a bit of a double standard, if not just hypocritical?

 

[yrdlyprincess]

Holy christmas!! I was JUST talking to DH and asking him if we should buck up the $10 for early bird check-in, trying to explain to him what it was-was not working because Eagles/Dallas is on, so a few beers into the game wasn't making him understand this--we are flying out of PHL--one thing DH did elaborate on is that he will not have his son or daughter sit with strangers--"I will have them sit on my lap" I think that I will get those EBCI after all...don't want DH causing a sceen

 

[crashbb]

Holy christmas!! I was JUST talking to DH and asking him if we should buck up the $10 for early bird check-in, trying to explain to him what it was-was not working because Eagles/Dallas is on, so a few beers into the game wasn't making him understand this--we are flying out of PHL--one thing DH did elaborate on is that he will not have his son or daughter sit with strangers--"I will have them sit on my lap" I think that I will get those EBCI after all...don't want DH causing a sceen

What you could do (which would save some money) is buy ECBI for three of the seats (assuming SW allows you to do this). This would get you low boarding passes for 3 people (adult and 2 kids) so that the kids were not sitting with strangers. The fourth person (adult) may (or may not) end up with a much higher boarding number and may not end up near the other three, but if the issue is only kids not sitting with strangers, it would save $20.

NB - I am not advocating only buying 3 (or less ECBI) and then saving seats, so please don't flame my suggestion.

 

[seashoreCM]

What you could do (which would save some money) is buy ECBI for three of the four seats . The fourth person (adult) may (or may not) end up with a much higher boarding number and may not end up near the other three, .

This second parent will get to sit nearby practically all of the time when the two kids are obedient enough to at least temporarily sit quietly aisle-window and the first parent sits in the next row or across the aisle as desired. When the second parent arrives everyone can decide who sits where.

At least on a plane in flight, a child cannot be kidnapped.

 

[ExPirateShopGirl]

An aside... Megan's Law doesn't address the legality of leaving one's children unattended. Megan's Laws (each state has one) provide for public access to databases which are populated with the names and locations of registered sex offenders.

Sitting two rows from your child isn't leaving him or her 'unattended.'

2) It is the law. Can't leave small children unattended in everyday life. In the car, at the library, at home. It is drilled into us that you don't leave your child unattened anywhere. "Megan's Law" for one example. It is one of the reason's new flyer's are so shocked and thrown for a loop when it happens. Everywhere else it is illegal

 

[Lewisc]

Holy christmas!! I was JUST talking to DH and asking him if we should buck up the $10 for early bird check-in, trying to explain to him what it was-was not working because Eagles/Dallas is on, so a few beers into the game wasn't making him understand this--we are flying out of PHL--one thing DH did elaborate on is that he will not have his son or daughter sit with strangers--"I will have them sit on my lap" I think that I will get those EBCI after all...don't want DH causing a sceen

How old are your kids? Passengers who qualify for family "mid-boarding" don't really need to pay for EBCI.

Is your flight early in the morning? Flights later in the day are likely to have connecting passengers. They get their BPs 24 hours before their first flight.

I'd pay for EBCI, if you're not eligible for family mid-boarding and if your flight is likely to have connecting passengers.

 

[NotUrsula]

It would help if the more frequent traveler's in Group 1 understood why parents react so strongly to being separated and why we think it is idiotic that a computer program can not link a child with a parent so that in those cases where rearrangements are made they are kept together.

1) Instinct. The mommy radar is active at all times. 24/7 Like I said in a previous post it is my job. If I don't know what is going on I can't help/fix/change their behaviour.

2) It is the law. Can't leave small children unattended in everyday life. In the car, at the library, at home. It is drilled into us that you don't leave your child unattened anywhere. "Megan's Law" for one example. It is one of the reason's new flyer's are so shocked and thrown for a loop when it happens. Everywhere else it is illegal.

3) Cultural. I would never expect other parents to have water for my child at a soccer game. I am expected to register my children for school not have the school district hunt me down etc. The little girl that was swiped a couple of weeks ago walking just a few blocks home. She was unattended and one commentator went off on the parents.

With all due respect, you should have said "why SOME parents react so strongly". What makes you think that we don't have children? (Well, Bavaria doesn't, AFAIK, but I think that all of the other frequent fliers that have been posting on this thread DO have kids.) I'm rather well-known around here for flying nearly as much with my kids as without them, and they have been racking up airmiles since infancy, as I have a lot of family overseas and elsewhere in the US that we often visit.

1) My "radar" is quite fine. I try to have it re-tuned at least once a month so that it doesn't emit false alarms.

2) Well, it actually *isn't* the law in most cases; though TV has made us think so. (Trust me, public libraries deal with "drop-off" kids every day.)

NO ONE on an aircraft is really "unattended", because there are Flight Attendants. Also, these days, there are also lots of very snoopy fellow passengers who are imaging terrorists around every corner -- there are eyes upon you at all times.

3) No one is going to be able to open a hatch and throw your child out, so she won't disappear. In the case of a healthy child, the worst thing that could happen on an uneventful flight is that someone might grope him or her, but the odds of that are VERY low, for the reasons I stated above -- it would just be too risky in such close quarters with so many witnesses and no way to run.

The simple rule is that if you are separated from your child on an aircraft, the parent should always take the seat furthest aft, so that the child's seat is in front of you and you don't have to turn around to see what's going on there. You teach the child to ring the call bell if there is a problem, and you keep an eye on the row and be ready to get up and go up there if you see the FA called to the row (you can tell if she's been called, because she will reach up to deactivate the call switch.)

As to the water, at 6 there should not be any expectation that some other passenger needs to provide water, etc. That is what the Flight Attendants are there for, should such a need arise. The average first-grader should be perfectly fine managing her own snack on an aircraft, as presumably she does it in school every day. You put her in her seat and you hand her her bag of personal entertainment/snack supplies; and she'll manage from there, knowing that she can call the FA for help when needed.

WHEN a separation situation happens, if it happens, you will know at the gate. That being the case, when you find out, you make it a point to make sure that your child is prepped. You take her to the restroom. You make sure that she has what she needs in her own bag (and you go grab a plastic bag from the newstand if necessary.) You give her quiet entertainment, a water bottle, a snack, and some napkins to clean up with. You put earplanes in if she needs them, and you explain about when she should call the FA if there is a problem. You remind her to keep her hands and feet to herself and to use her most polite manners. Then you sit her in the seat, make sure that she knows where the call button is and that she has fastened her seat belt, and then you progress on back to your own seat.

I don't get separated from my younger child because we always use a carseat on board. My oldest is now 12, and over what is probably close to 200 flights, he's been separated from me maybe a dozen times since he was 5. It has never been a problem for either of us. He knows that I'm behind him and have my eye on him, and he knows that I will be all over him if another passenger or the FA complains about his behaviour. I also make him tell me where his exit is before I go to my own seat -- counting off the rows. (Everyone should do this every time they board a plane, because if it is dark you will have to count the seat rows to feel your way to the exit.)

I do, of course, look for possible seat trades and leverage my best seating assignment if it happens, but in every case, we both board the plane prepared to sit apart if need be. Panic or anger reactions are a serious waste of time and energy in this kind of situation.

 

[Lewisc]

I think some of the regular posters may have missed some points.

The FA in this case had a 2 year old (with a paid seat) sit on a parents lap (violating rules/laws). The claim was there wasn't any available seats on the plane.

I think the FA should have moved passengers so a parent could sit next to a child that young. Obviously letting the child sit on a parents lap was not an acceptable solution.

JMO but a 2 year old should be next to one parent, even if that means moving passengers.

It sounds like we're missing something. I wonder if the family got to the gate late.

Infrequent fliers don't know to keep checking their seat assignments.

 

[bumbershoot]

Holy christmas!! I was JUST talking to DH and asking him if we should buck up the $10 for early bird check-in, trying to explain to him what it was-was not working because Eagles/Dallas is on, so a few beers into the game wasn't making him understand this--we are flying out of PHL--one thing DH did elaborate on is that he will not have his son or daughter sit with strangers--"I will have them sit on my lap" I think that I will get those EBCI after all...don't want DH causing a sceen

I'm glad oyu have a plan. Plans are good.

But what many of us are saying is that this likely isn't needed. The article was written because it was newsworthy, which means it is RARE.


****

The FA in this case had a 2 year old (with a paid seat) sit on a parents lap (violating rules/laws). The claim was there wasn't any available seats on the plane.

I think the FA should have moved passengers so a parent could sit next to a child that young. Obviously letting the child sit on a parents lap was not an acceptable solution.

JMO but a 2 year old should be next to one parent, even if that means moving passengers.

It sounds like we're missing something. I wonder if the family got to the gate late.

I don't think anyone missed that. I know I addressed it.

First, I've seen several full-on 2 year olds seated in laps, with NO seats purchased. I wouldn't be surprised if FAs get that question wrong in their tests ALL the time. I remember when DS was little I used to get confused at zoos b/c of the "kids under x" are free wording...for some reason I could never figure out if my kid was free! Sometimes people think "kids under 2" means "2 and under"...since I was one of them, at the zoo at least, I know it happens.

So I think some FAs get confuzzled, even when a parent is flat out saying "my child is 30 months" aka 2+ years, and will just go on about how cute and polite the child is and how well they speak, etc, while the parent has the kid on their lap, ready for take-off. (seriously... Alaska THAT time...SW the other time with the THREE women with 2+ year olds and NO seats paid for)

It might have been that.

Or it could be that the passengers were confused and said the age wrong. The author might have gotten it wrong.

The passengers might have put him on their lap rather than have someone sit elsewhere.

There's confusion *somewhere* in there.


This is a RARE occurrence. Someone messed up, this isn't usual. Someone did *something* wrong, to have that kid on a lap, and THAT imo is the problem.


And they said that this was a connection flight; they had come in from another place, so it's possible they were late, though coming from another flight means itmight not have been the passengers' fault...unless they stopped for a snack/beer/long bathroom break/etc.

 

[DebbieB]

I think some of the regular posters may have missed some points.

The FA in this case had a 2 year old (with a paid seat) sit on a parents lap (violating rules/laws). The claim was there wasn't any available seats on the plane.

I think the FA should have moved passengers so a parent could sit next to a child that young. Obviously letting the child sit on a parents lap was not an acceptable solution.

JMO but a 2 year old should be next to one parent, even if that means moving passengers.

It sounds like we're missing something. I wonder if the family got to the gate late.

Infrequent fliers don't know to keep checking their seat assignments.

I mentioned it in #103.

 

[NotUrsula]

I mentioned it in #17 -- AND I expressed my doubt that the airline really insisted on it.

As to the article being written because this situation is rare -- I disagree entirely. While it *is* rare, I don't think that is why it got written up in this instance. I think that the article was written because 1) the passengers made a public stink about it, AND 2) because they happened to approach a columnist who apparently never flies with kids. Several of us said it early on, that it was bizarre that the columnist was surprised that it is allowable for a 6yo to sit away from a parent.

Separations have a tendency to arise more often under certain circumstances than others. It happens more on flights into or out
of certain hub airports that have traffic or weather issues, for one thing, and the time of year factors in. It also happens more to people who buy last-minute bargain fares (which is why it happens to me relatively more often than normal -- my circumstances let me travel last-minute, and I like to take advantage of any outstanding sale opportunity that comes my way. Very often those flights have nothing left unassigned but middle seats, though the airlines NEVER tell you that in so many words at time of purchase.)

Oh, and as to Bavaria's question: it would be unlikely that we would deplane over it, but I won't rule it out entirely. Under certain circumstances we might, particularly if the flight was over the water.

 

[bumbershoot]

NU, yeah, after my last post I went to check if there's been any updates in the article. The SW-kicked-2-yo-off-plane news articles had followups...but this one, which seemed much more like an opinion piece, doesn't seem to have had any updates. And while noticing that, I saw that it was just this one guy in a few papers... Kind of strange.

 

[crashbb]

I mentioned it in #17 -- AND I expressed my doubt that the airline really insisted on it.

As to the article being written because this situation is rare -- I disagree entirely. While it *is* rare, I don't think that is why it got written up in this instance. I think that the article was written because 1) the passengers made a public stink about it, AND 2) because they happened to approach a columnist who apparently never flies with kids. Several of us said it early on, that it was bizarre that the columnist was surprised that it is allowable for a 6yo to sit away from a parent.

Separations have a tendency to arise more often under certain circumstances than others. It happens more on flights into or out
of certain hub airports that have traffic or weather issues, for one thing, and the time of year factors in. It also happens more to people who buy last-minute bargain fares (which is why it happens to me relatively more often than normal -- my circumstances let me travel last-minute, and I like to take advantage of any outstanding sale opportunity that comes my way. Very often those flights have nothing left unassigned but middle seats, though the airlines NEVER tell you that in so many words at time of purchase.)

Oh, and as to Bavaria's question: it would be unlikely that we would deplane over it, but I won't rule it out entirely. Under certain circumstances we might, particularly if the flight was over the water.

I also mentioned the no seat for the two year old at some point (too lazy to look up the post number).

I agree that the article was not simply because it is rare. What I really meant (but didn't say) was that it wouldn't have been written if it wasn't rare (required, but not sufficient). I agree that it also wouldn't have been written if the parents hadn't made a stink and the columnist was competent. I just figured that both these last things would have been less likely if the separation were on commonplace occurrence.

I'm surprised that you find that airlines don't show seats until after you've paid for it. Both Air Canada and United have links to seat maps on the grids that show you available flights. I just assumed that most airlines that this now (though, admittedly, I know that West Jet does not). I definitely check the maps before choosing my flight (assuming I have some flexibility). Definitely buying seats at the last minute or ending up on a different flight (due to weather/whatever) increases your chances of being separated. Whenever someone on here asks about doing stand-by, we always point out that they have a high likelihood of ending up in middle seats around the plane.

 

[NotUrsula]

I'm surprised that you find that airlines don't show seats until after you've paid for it. Both Air Canada and United have links to seat maps on the grids that show you available flights. I just assumed that most airlines that this now (though, admittedly, I know that West Jet does not). I definitely check the maps before choosing my flight (assuming I have some flexibility)...

I find that it is fairly common for the maps not to be available when buying discounted fares less than 96 hours out. IME, under the right circumstances they can be unavailable more than a month out on certain flights for passengers who don't have status. (Due to my home airport's traffic situation and where I most commonly go, for the past several years the only airline that I've had "status" on is SWA.)

When the maps are down, you most commonly get a message that instructs you to call for seat assignments, but when you call, you're often told to call back 24 hours from departure. However, sometimes they tell you that you won't be able to get seat assignments until you arrive at the airport. About 4 years ago I famously had this happen on AA out of MCO (tickets purchased 2 weeks out), only to get on the plane and find nearly 20 deadheading uniformed flight crew, who were ALL sitting in aisle seats. I spoke to the pilot sitting next to me, who was surprised that DS and I were separated. He told me that he wasn't informed that he would be on that plane until an hour before it departed (and it departed at least 30 minutes late).