Unfathomable: Church Massacre

[eliza61]

I find this hard to believe. Every black person I know that grew up in the south see that flag as a sign if slavery, hatred and racism.

In the North also.
I can't speak for every single Black person but I fell pretty confident in saying that flag represents oppression, hatred, lynching (which as a form of killing in this country specifically associated with us) and bigotry to the vast majority.


And folks let's remember they are not saying to destroy the flag, they are not saying private citizens should not or can not display the flag.
Basically in this time when we are trying to move past, our evil demons it's time to take down the most widely recognized symbol of hate outside of a burning cross.

Now how would you feel about a burning cross in the middle of the capital. I mean, one could argue that the KKK were supposedly a Christian organization yet we know what a burning cross was intended to do.

People are not saying to destroy the thing but it maybe time to relegate some symbols to the past.
Yes, Chief Wahoo belongs to a baseball team but yeah, it's time to let that one go. It's beyond insulting and in this day and age

 

[luvsJack]

No we can not erase that but we don't have to honor it either. the confederate flag is different that a monument in that it is specifically link to the annilation of a people. Long after slavery that flag was used specifically to convey a distinct message. It is no different than a swastika, can you image the hell that would break out if someone try to fly a swastika on public property?

KKK robes cannot be erased either but I sure as heck don't think there should be a monument to the organization.

While I think the timing is purely theatrical, I'm also not going to accept the argument that just because it was history, that we have to slap it everywhere knowing it's offensiveness and symbolism to 17% of the population.

What I don't understand is why Blacks always have to be "accepting" of slavery and the after effects, no one tells the Jewish population to get over the holocaust or they have to "realize" and move on that it happened.

Yes we have to realize it happened, no we don't have to accept the symbolism of it in our face every day on a state issued license plate

I don't think anyone should just accept it. I do think that all of us should be able to look at it and be proud from where we came. What a strong heritage you should be proud of. From slavery to a man in the whitehouse . Yes it took a long time but it finally came to be. Seeing Jesse Jackson's tears the day Obama was elected, to me, showed all the struggle the black race has dealt with and yet has fought and continued to move forward. (and this has nothing to do with anyone's opinion of Obama or Jesse Jackson, his tears just really got to me)

That pride? Same thing southerns feel when we look at from where we came. After the civil war, cities, lands, plantations and everything else was burned and yet they fought and scratched and clawed their way out of starvation and rebuilt. And now today, whether its the murder of 9 people, the murder of two cops (one white, one black), a hurricane or something else, we ban together and use our faith and our strength to get to the other side. That flag simply represents from where we came.

Is the flag an issue because of slavery or because of the kkk? If it is because of slavery, would repalcing the battle flag with the real confederate flag be better? How does the American flag not represent the same thing? Should the civil war memorials also come down or does being without a flag make it ok? If its the kkk, what about the other symbols they use? And now the debatea are truly on for removing other things, should that happen too? And I am truly asking these questions, Eliza, not trying to be snarky at all.

Racism still exists. I know that and know it well but removing or not removing anything sn't going to change it.

I have heard so many of the older blacks here say "its our history too" about so many things across the south. There seems to be a difference of opinion of what is or isn't offensive between generations as well.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

All I can say is that here in MO the flag is a symbol of white power. Like it or not, it is what it is.

 

[dinolounger]

It's sad to see how many here are just focused on the subject of the battle flag and are missing the larger issue of the very slippery slope we are entering:

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2015/06/24/271082/first-the-confederate-flag-whats.html

 

[Geoff_M]

It's sad to see how many here are just focused on the subject of the battle flag and are missing the larger issue of the very slippery slope we are entering

"And then they came for The General Lee..."

 

[rajak73]

So for all the "nobody is saying take down the American Flag.......here it is.....

Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan expressed contempt for the American flag Wednesday, telling hundreds gathered in a D.C. church that it is a symbol of racism and needs to be brought down.

 

[FlightlessDuck]

So for all the "nobody is saying take down the American Flag.......here it is.....

Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan expressed contempt for the American flag Wednesday, telling hundreds gathered in a D.C. church that it is a symbol of racism and needs to be brought down.

Yes, because Louis Farrakhan is a normal, every day person with reasonable ideas...

 

[DizBelle]

It seems to me that Dylan has succeeded in inciting a race war.....

 

[Luvchefmic]

So for all the "nobody is saying take down the American Flag.......here it is.....

Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan expressed contempt for the American flag Wednesday, telling hundreds gathered in a D.C. church that it is a symbol of racism and needs to be brought down.

Listen at the one hour 48 minute 58 second mark Caution- the N word is used Amazes me how someone can talk about the love of God from one side of his mouth and spew hate for others from the other side of his mouth:

https://www.justiceorelse.com/news/pressconference

 

[luvsJack]

Yes, because Louis Farrakhan is a normal, every day person with reasonable ideas...

Maybe not, but how many do you think may be listening to him?

Take away the confederate flag, fine. Take it down everywhere it may fly. But first we need to figure out where the stopping point is.

 

[chicagodisneyfan]

I don't think anyone should just accept it. I do think that all of us should be able to look at it and be proud from where we came. What a strong heritage you should be proud of. From slavery to a man in the whitehouse . Yes it took a long time but it finally came to be. Seeing Jesse Jackson's tears the day Obama was elected, to me, showed all the struggle the black race has dealt with and yet has fought and continued to move forward. (and this has nothing to do with anyone's opinion of Obama or Jesse Jackson, his tears just really got to me)

That pride? Same thing southerns feel when we look at from where we came. After the civil war, cities, lands, plantations and everything else was burned and yet they fought and scratched and clawed their way out of starvation and rebuilt. And now today, whether its the murder of 9 people, the murder of two cops (one white, one black), a hurricane or something else, we ban together and use our faith and our strength to get to the other side. That flag simply represents from where we came.

I have heard so many of the older blacks here say "its our history too" about so many things across the south. There seems to be a difference of opinion of what is or isn't offensive between generations as well.

So nobody was proud in the South until 1961? When the flag was flown over the SC capitol? Which coincides with the time of civil rights? Um ok. And the South were the LOSERS in the war! Way to be proud. I lived in the South (Atlanta) in the 80s and my experience was that is was very much a symbol of white supremacy. This was not my assumption - but I had never seen on in person - so to see in a dorm or fraternity was a surprise - so I asked about it. Now, the majority of those who fly it may be doing it for "Southern Pride" but considering a large percentage of people believe it to be a sign of racism - why would anyone want to continue to fly it?

 

[Muushka]

So for all the "nobody is saying take down the American Flag.......here it is.....

Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan expressed contempt for the American flag Wednesday, telling hundreds gathered in a D.C. church that it is a symbol of racism and needs to be brought down.

It was a matter of time.

Yes, because Louis Farrakhan is a normal, every day person with reasonable ideas...

Yes, an every day person with reasonable ideas, and quite a following. Did you listen to the link above provided?

Do you think Robert Byrd statues and memorials will be targeted?

How about Margaret Sanger?
Has anyone ever takeen a look at the statements from this revered woman (think eugenics) ?
Does anyone think that the recipients of the Margaret Sanger Award ought to disavow their admiration of the eugenicist?

 

[FlightlessDuck]

Did you listen to the link above provided?

No, he doesn't deserve my attention.

Do you think Robert Byrd statues and memorials will be targeted?

Well, he did renounce his stance later in life. That shows growth.

How about Margaret Sanger?

Great advocate for birth control with horrible opinions about eugenics and race. Reminds me of Henry Gerber. Great early (like 1920's early) advocate for gay rights... sort of.

 

[Luvchefmic]

We may think Farrakhan ( and Sharpton and others like them ) don't deserve our attention but it's foolish not to know what they are saying. Many many are listening and that effects us all.

 

[cabanafrau]

I know the history but that did not answer my question. I asked WHO is spitting on WHOSE memory?

A good deal of discussion and focus has been about symbols, you are right. That symbol has nothing to do with the crime that was committed. That flag did not murder 9 people. Nathan Forrest's portrait did not murder 9 people.

The county that I live in has been named "Forrest" for many, many years. NOW, some of the PTB suddenly realize who its named for? Suddenly now they decide he shouldn't have his name on anything? If that is in fact what they decide, maybe they need to scour their history books a little more because there are a huge number of names that are on states, counties, roads, etc that should be removed.

And has this stopped anything? No. I read a report earlier of a man walking into a church in LA and killing several people. He was black.

You seem to be laboring under the misunderstanding I am calling for the removal of these symbols and names. Haven't and didn't. I'll say it again, I think it's a pointless waste of time and energy to focus on pettiness and rehash the issues of a war fought over a century ago, particularly when we've got bigger fish to fry. I'm not suggesting by any means we forget our past, far from it. I say we remember our past particularly so we can learn from it and do better. Part of that past and history involved armed conflict in which ultimately hundreds of thousands died and families and lives were torn apart. In the end it was decided that our country would remain united as a nation going forward and ultimately freedom would extend to all.

It seems to me that Dylan has succeeded in inciting a race war.....

More than a century after fighting that awful war and this ugly scar not only sticks around, but threatens infection of our nation? That's not spitting on the memory of those who died in that conflict, or of those who survived and worked to remain brother and sister citizens of a heartbroken reunited nation? It's not difficult to keep clinging to past wounds with the mentality of "but they started it!", insisting our pain or loss is too great to ever consider compromise in an attempt to understand others. One look at the Middle East tells me that game can be played for centuries. I'm hoping we can wake up and do better.

 

[luvsJack]

So nobody was proud in the South until 1961? When the flag was flown over the SC capitol? Which coincides with the time of civil rights? Um ok. And the South were the LOSERS in the war! Way to be proud. I lived in the South (Atlanta) in the 80s and my experience was that is was very much a symbol of white supremacy. This was not my assumption - but I had never seen on in person - so to see in a dorm or fraternity was a surprise - so I asked about it. Now, the majority of those who fly it may be doing it for "Southern Pride" but considering a large percentage of people believe it to be a sign of racism - why would anyone want to continue to fly it?

I am not from SC so I can't answer for them. There are many states in the south, not just SC.

Why are you so fixated on the war, I thought that was supposed to be OUR thing. LOL. Did you read what I said? Its not about the civil war. Win or lose, doesn't matter. It was the strength of the southern people after the war that I am talking about.

Again, take it down and change our state flag. I hope that it makes a difference, I don't think it will but we always need hope. But when we remove it, we need to figure out where the line is drawn too or we could forever be removing things.

 

[eliza61]

It seems to me that Dylan has succeeded in inciting a race war.....

LOL. not at all.

Here are a few points to remember Dizbelle,

first of all, from the time of it's inception, this country never agreed on everything. lol.

Our founding fathers basically tabled the problems of slavery and other issues simply to get the southern states to go along with the declaration of independance.

Basically the underlying ideals are pretty strong. If you think about it, the fact that we're still one nation is an indication that the so call idea of a "race war" is far fetched.

Dylan is one guy, once again if there really was going to be some sort of "powder keg" event that would break us up, skuse bucket dylan would not be it. We've always had wackadoodles. now I think the only thing I dislike is that now with the advent of cable tv and internet, they all have a outlet.

Lastly and my personal favorite. If you notice in times of real tragedy for the most part the country pulls together.. Oklahoma city, 9/11, Boston bombing, this tragedy. Often people wonder why it takes a national tragedy for us to even think about stuff.

 

[TLSnell1981]

It seems to me that Dylan has succeeded in inciting a race war.....

Nope, he didn't incite this. Little "what's his name" has no power or supporters, not even his family.

Charlestonians responded with love and prayer...that didn't fit the agenda. There are more powerful forces responsible for this "war". They FINALLY got their white racist...couldn't waste the opportunity. IMO

 

[Muushka]

No, he doesn't deserve my attention.



Well, he did renounce his stance later in life. That shows growth.



Great advocate for birth control with horrible opinions about eugenics and race. Reminds me of Henry Gerber. Great early (like 1920's early) advocate for gay rights... sort of.

As was mentioned above, L Farrakhan is someone who we should be aware of what his message is. Because he is an influence.

And while Robert Byrd did renounce his stance on the KKK (of which he was a member) and racism, is he not a reminder of what he stood for?
Kind of like the Confederate flag. It 'reminds' people of bad things.

Oh. Margaret Sanger. Great advocate for birth control. If she had problems with racism and wanting to eliminate a certain race of people, why is she so admired?
Why would a political figure refer to Sanger as someone she admires enormously? Is that not a reminder of something terrible?

Such hypocrisy.

 

[dinolounger]

Fanatical heathen zealots destroying history:

As practiced by ISIS in Syria

As practiced by "history cleansers" in the U.S: