Unfathomable: Church Massacre

[lustergirl]

We know what the consequences will be if the thread goes downhill. Being able to talk and share here is a positive thing in the midst of tragedy. Surely we can come together, in this moment, and be mindfully respectful of the the requested boundaries.

Oh I am pretty sure everyone understands the boundaries in this thread, except for one newcomer who evidently likes stirring the pot

 

[lustergirl]

I wonder about trying to make sense out of an act like this. The shooter is clearly mentally disturbed so how can there be any sense?

My thoughts are with the wounded and the families.

There is no sense to it and if your try to find it you will drive yourself crazy.

 

[ZephyrHawk]

Okay, first, racism exists and is alive in America and other countries.

Second, "average racists"...if such a personality type can be said to actually exist...don't go into churches and shoot a bunch of people. Just as "average homophobes" don't shoot up gay pride parades and "average misogynists" don't stalk and kill women. Mentally ill people do that.

Now, mentally ill people just don't sit around all day talking to themselves. They go on the internet. They go to work. They go to meetings. And they get exposed to other people's viewpoints, such as racism, homophobia, and misogyny. Sometimes, they agree with these points of view and adopt them as their own. However, unlike their more "average" counterparts, they take things beyond the extreme. I think it is safe to say that if they were not exposed to other people's more average racist (or homophobic, or misogynist, etc.) beliefs, they would have latched on to some other extremist point of view, and put their own extra-extreme spin on it. Their minds are telling them that someone or something is against them and everything they believe in, that they are under constant threat that they must defend themselves from, that they are the chosen leader to save the world from the terror of.....something. It's up to their life experiences to fill in what that "something" will become. In this guy's case, it was apparently black people. At some point in his life he met some "average" racists who shared their beliefs with him. To him, it was like a revelation. These people understood! They knew about the terror that was coming! Of course it was black people that were the root of it! These average racists provided confirmation through their own opinions of everything his mind had been telling him all along! The problem was that they weren't "chosen". They couldn't see things as well as he could. They couldn't know what had to be done to stop this lingering menace. He understood because he was special. He couldn't be afraid of the long arm of the law, or the sting of "public opinion", or what it might do to all his friends and family - He had been given a special purpose.

Racism meets irrational thought.

So, would this guy have shot up a black church without racism? Maybe. He probably would have shot up something. Maybe a daycare, or a government building, or a government building with a daycare inside it (I don't believe anyone's ever accused Timothy McVeigh of racist actions). So, is racism to blame? Yes. Is mental illness to blame? Yes. Is lax gun control to blame? Yes, it is. Hey, I know a lot of pro-gun people, and there's not one of them who thinks its a good idea to let mentally unstable folks have easy access to firearms.

So the point is you can't narrow this tragedy down to being the result of one, or even just two, causes. You can't use it as a rallying cry against just racism, or just mental illness, or just guns, or...as some pundits have been doing...claim it's a result of the "criminalization of Christianity". There were many failures that lead to this; failures of government, failures of social contract, etc. Improving one aspect might have prevented it, but it might not. Improving all those aspects would be more likely to prevent it, but it still might occur. Sometimes, there's nothing you can do to prevent a tragedy. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't try. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to educate people away from racism, or that we shouldn't improve healthcare for the mentally ill, or that we shouldn't consider rational means of gun control. We should. We need to.

What we should not do is waste our time pointing fingers at who or what is to blame. Ultimately, this kid is to blame. Now lets work on making sure there are no more kids that turn out like him in the future.

 

[Dizlvr]

Meanwhile Fox "News" spent the morning claming it was an "Attack on Faith" and claiming the church members would be better off if they all had guns, further reminding us all of where Fox stands on "News"

If you go to their website its the top story and the headline is
"He was a racist, friends of SC suspect recount supremacist views"

I'm not sure anyone can deny this was about race at this point.

 

[delyrium]

If you go to their website its the top story and the headline is
"He was a racist, friends of SC suspect recount supremacist views"

I'm not sure anyone can deny this was about race at this point.

Did you scroll down to the comments on that article? Disgusting stuff. Blaming the victims for segregating themselves, yelling about how black people are more racist then white people, saying this was triggered by Obama's hatred. I did not see one comment with sympathy for the victims and their families. I was frankly horrified and wish I'd avoided the comments section(as I usually do).

 

[Dizlvr]

Did you scroll down to the comments on that article? Disgusting stuff. Blaming the victims for segregating themselves, yelling about how black people are more racist then white people, saying this was triggered by Obama's hatred. I did not see one comment with sympathy for the victims and their families. I was frankly horrified and wish I'd avoided the comments section(as I usually do).

No, I tend to stay away from the comments because it seems its only the ******** and idiots that comment.

Hey mods, I just had to edit my own post, a word that rhymes with grasspoles didn't automatically edit!

 

[delyrium]

Thee were just so many in this case.

 

[eliza61]

So been mainly following along, just some basic observatons.

One problem I think we all suffer from is "magic bullet"-itis. Societal ills are rarely solved by "one" solution.
Was this guy a wackoo? probably. would he have done it without a gun? maybe. Where were his parents, why was he so angry at such a young age. If our problems could be solved with one solution, we would have done so long ago.

Now as an African american women born during the end of civil rights and having a parent who was a civil rights attorney in segregated Tennesse, I'm not sure there is an 'average" racists anymore than there is a "average" person. There is a popular saying our country "ain't what it use to be" but "it's also ain't what it should be". I suspect that will be true for a while. I deal with racism on a daily basis, got no choice, some times I make great choices, and like any other person some times I get mad and make idiotic choices that I always regret. I think a good start is for everyone to do their best to make their little pocket of the world safe for everyone.

The statement I do think is most profound is what the President said yesterday...

He's had to stand up and make these types of speeches way too many times.... 14 by my count. so if you look at it in terms of presidental terms, we are averaging almost two mass murders by wackoos a year.

That's a problem no matter what the cause.

 

[aaarcher86]

Just heard on the radio the shooter confessed and stated "he wanted to start a race war."

Kinda takes the motivational questions out of it.

 

[Mkrop]

I think the PP was being a bit tongue in cheek here. When a black youth commits a crime, people feel very free to speculate about his parenting and what he might have learned from his "community." But, when a white youth commits a crime, we need to wait before we speculate. Interesting. People are not born hating. They LEARN to hate. From somewhere, or someone. While I may not know "who" in this young man's community or family taught him that hate was ok, someone or something did. Maybe he listened to the never ending drivel on far right wing radio? Maybe he read right wing manifestos. Maybe he perused hate sites on the internet. But, he didn't wake up one day and decide to hate all black people out of thin air.
Racism is a learned behavior. Not innate. And, if it's learned it can be unlearned.

My father was a racist, and liberally used the "n" word when I was growing up. It's what I knew. But, when we grow up, we can learn to do better or we can give in to hatred.

I am always a proponent of waiting before speculating. I said that about Ferguson and other recent events. I did not understand people going to extremes without getting autopsy reports etc. And I find the right wing stuff to be off the mark, I read a lot from both sides and yes there are extremists on both sides of the aisle, but I do not think it can be blamed for this, or if you try it is because like many times the words are twisted to fit a agenda

Meanwhile Fox "News" spent the morning claming it was an "Attack on Faith" and claiming the church members would be better off if they all had guns, further reminding us all of where Fox stands on "News"

Wow I feel like I was watching a different channel bc I saw a different take. They never denied a racism motive, they just expanded it to see if faith played a role as well. Like the place of faith that was attacked in the Midwest. The murderer chose a church for his attack, was that just convenience, was that because the senator was there and he was the target or was there some deeper meaning to a church??? It was said that this thug was thinking about Charleston College but he did not ultimately choose there he chose the church, why???, so they explored the religious angle as well. Maybe we will find out that this awful person had a misdirected beef with blacks AND people of faith, or maybe it was soley racist.

And the woman who called in seeing Dylann Roof at a stoplight, saw his picture and the information about the shooting on Fox and Friends. She was just on Fox and told her story.

 

[rickybobby]

Meanwhile Fox "News" spent the morning claming it was an "Attack on Faith" and claiming the church members would be better off if they all had guns, further reminding us all of where Fox stands on "News"

The lady that called the police with the location of the killer saw the report on Fox and Friends yesterday, so that network directly contributed to his arrest.
By the way, I spent a while watching Fox News yesterday, and the racial aspect was discussed multiple times. Maybe you heard one person make that claim, and you attributed that to all Fox staff and watchers. There is a term for that. You know what it is?

 

[disneyjunkie]

Did you scroll down to the comments on that article? Disgusting stuff. Blaming the victims for segregating themselves, yelling about how black people are more racist then white people, saying this was triggered by Obama's hatred. I did not see one comment with sympathy for the victims and their families. I was frankly horrified and wish I'd avoided the comments section(as I usually do).

And they expect us to believe that racism is no longer an issue in America.

 

[slo]

One of the few places left on earth where you are supposed to feel safe. My heart breaks for the families of the killed.

I 100% agree

 

[disneyjunkie]

There's no need to expand on the reason when the shooter has stated his reason. Not once has he mentioned faith. The only thing he continues to mention is race.

 

[eliza61]

I 100% agree

You guys are probably too young to remember but churchs especially AA churches are often targets.

I remember when the bomb 16th street baptist in Birmingham. Killed 4 little girls. It was the first time the entire nation got an idea of what was going on in the south. That was in 1963 or 64 can't remember the exact year, I remember folks where stunned that they would attack a church.
My parents darn near put my siblings and me on lockdown.

 

[cabanafrau]

I am actually a rather stunned to see as many posts as there are denying racism was at play in this horrific act and that racism is still far too prevalent in the US at large. I cannot imagine people can look around America today and spend time there and NOT see it happening.

I guess that is all I can safely say at this point--I am just too upset over the continuing violence and hatred and refusal to see it or do anything about it or admit there is a widespread problem, to generate calm and polite comments.

I do not get the logic where suggesting that mental illness sparked this tragedy equates to denial of racism. Racism is a cancer in this country. Unchecked mental illness is as well. Together they are the makings of tragedy and horror. This killer may well cling to his racist views until the day he dies. He may also be mentally ill for the duration of his life as well, similar to someone like Charles Manson.

 

[Dizlvr]

There is no doubt he is a racist and his actions were fueled by hate. But, can one really kill 9 people in cold blood without being mentally ill? What keeps the majority of society (racists included) from just going around killing people?

 

[lauradis]

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/06/dylann-roofs-attorney

self medication is the number one sign for an untreated mental illness.

 

[MarcW]

I wasn't born during that time either. But I still know those act were committed by Average Joe racists.

Sorry, I'm not willing to sit back and pretend that racism is a thing of the past. Just because it isn't in your face as it once was, doesn't mean it isn't there.

All of this pearl clutching and hand wringing trying to label this piece garbage anything besides the racists thug that he is is just sick.

I never said I thought he wasn't a racist. In fact I clearly stated I thought he was racist scum and the sooner South Carolina gives him the needle the happier I'll be.

Lynching a man and leaving his body hanging in a tree for his family to find is a far cry from choosing a white job applicant over a black applicant based solely on the color of their skin. It is people trying to give equal weight to those type of acts that make people .

 

[JaneBanks]

Black shooter = thug
Muslim shooter = terrorist
White shooter = mentally ill

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