TSA mess and the police

[Lisa loves Pooh]

The links are out there - and it was on the news tonight, when I happened to flip the t.v. on.. It's a case-by-case basis - and they specifically said it was due to people not wanting to endure these extra hassles simply to fly..

It will be interesting to see what happens tomorrow - if there's an opt-out or not.. I read somewhere that if there is - even a small number at any given area - it would be so disruptive that it would take 6 hours to screen 100 passengers! That could wreak total havoc with the plans of anyone who plans to fly tomorrow.. (Personally, I don't think the opt-out tomorrow is the best way of addressing these issues.. It's not fair to other flyers who are comfortable with these new procedures and therefore they should not be punished while at the airport..)

I dislike protests and feel bad for people who may get delayed...

But the very nature of the protest is to get noticed. They aren't usually effecting if they are scheduled for the most convenient time.

I'm guessing it will rank up there with National Unfriend Day on facebook.

But they do offer the option, so there is nothing inherently wrong with the protest. I'm just not sure what they are protesting. Are they protesting the scans or the lunacy of the pat downs? I just don't get it.

 

[C.Ann]

C.Ann, that's too bad about your sister. I'm sure there are reasons for others not to go through the pat down, and it is a choice that has to be made, if there is a reason someone just can't. Maybe you can surprise her by going down there, if you can do the scanner, or really surprise her and take all of you on a road trip (and maybe stop in PA which would be wonderful for you!). I know that won't get a visit with your mom, but I bet she would still love to see the rest of you.

Yes - it is too bad.. I will likely never see her again - and she will never see our mother again either..

"If" I were able to fly, I would not.. Why? Because I am vehemently opposed to these useless, invasive/intrusive groping pat downs - and I would not stand in a line - hoping and praying - that I would not be randomly chosen for groping of my body without just cause..

As for a road trip, I thought you knew by now that DD has not been able to travel any significant distance by vehicle for at least 4 yrs. - as I've mentioned it numerous times in various threads..

I can no longer travel more than 2 hours or so myself - by any means of transportation - due to medical issues of my own.. After that fiasco here on the DIS with a medical issue I was having several years ago (and posted about on the CB), I learned my lesson.. Any serious medical conditions I have are no longer up for discussion with strangers.. I discuss them with my family, my doctors, and very close friends (on a "need to know" basis)..

So - we're one family who will lose out on times with loved ones due to these new security measures and sadly, I'm sure there will be many others as well.. To just "shut up" and "go with the flow" (or travel by other means) is not an option for everyone..

 

[LuvOrlando]

I think the dissent is growing, but for many--mom is going to kill 'em if they don't show up.

But if airlines are offering refunds for cancellations as luvorlando has posted that Delta has done. That isn't the ecomony--that is the dissent. No matter how poor the economy is right now--those non-refundable ticket policies are not flexible at all. For Delta to say they will refund money--that is pretty big. (I haven't checked links or looked into this--just going based on what LuvOrlando has posted.)

I don't know how widespread it is but that poor guy who videotaped himself last week also got a refund from one of the big airlines too, it was on the video. I hope the majority of people who don't want to fly now are given some consideration. When the H1n1 hit in 2009 I was given credit even though the policy on my ticket was 'no changes' and that kindness went a long was in solidifying brand loyalty. We used Continental for flights to Aruba and MCO this year and DH favors them when he flies when possible.

Right now I just hope things stay calm at the airports, that is no place to stir
trouble. I'm a bit worried about the idea of protests.

 

[DMRick]

I don't know. It seems that random pat downs are possible. For now, it requires touching my chest in such a way that...ummm...well...I'm gonna leak.

Someone elses baby crying in the mall would do that to me, so I understand. For months after I had my children, my modesty was shot anyway, so that wouldn't have bothered me LOL.

And I certainly will not subject my young children to a potential random pat down--a non invasive one or otherwise.

Sometimes kids got patted down in the past before all this new stuff..I thought that was now going to be the same for the under 12 bunch. Did you luck out and never have that happen in the past? My granddaughter was wanded (and I've been wanded..geesh, they could have offered me dinner first! They were much easier on her) when she was about 5...we only wished we knew they did that and had prepared her, but she was still so excited that we were going to Disney, it didn't faze her..maybe she thought it was part of the experience of going to see the mouse. I just realized it was before 9/11. I guess I didn't realize they did that back then (1998)

My husband is okay with pat downs and such. So I'll start driving and he can just meet us there. That way my stubborness won't interfere with his vacation time allocation.

LOL.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Someone elses baby crying in the mall would do that to me, so I understand. For months after I had my children, my modesty was shot anyway, so that wouldn't have bothered me LOL.



Sometimes kids got patted down in the past before all this new stuff..I thought that was now going to be the same for the under 12 bunch. Did you luck out and never have that happen in the past? My granddaughter was wanded (and I've been wanded..geesh, they could have offered me dinner first! They were much easier on her) when she was about 5...we only wished we knew they did that and had prepared her, but she was still so excited that we were going to Disney, it didn't faze her..maybe she thought it was part of the experience of going to see the mouse. I just realized it was before 9/11. I guess I didn't realize they did that back then (1998)

LOL.

I got flagged for additional screening, but only with a wand--no hands...on several trips.

On all of our trips....

1 RT international and several domestic (I can't think right now--but we've flown enough that I truly had no idea that children could be handled with hands)....and it never happened with any of my kids who have flown.

I've only had 1 flight pre-9/11 with an infant...and my first post 9/11 flight was international--no additional screening on either portion of our trip.

Wand doesn't bother me...hands do. Frisking is not okay.

There has got to be a better way. Until there is...I'll pass. Which is going to be tough as hubby wanted to do Yosemite in a few years. Long trip to California...but I can do an extended trip with the kids. My sis lives in the middle of the country....so there is one side trip.

 

[DMRick]

As for a road trip, I thought you knew by now that DD has not been able to travel any significant distance by vehicle for at least 4 yrs. - as I've mentioned it numerous times in various threads..

No, I didn't know that. Guess I don't read a lot of your threads.

In any case, that's too bad for your aunt, that another mode of transport can't work. Perhaps you can set up Skype with your laptop..nowhere the same as an in person hug, but she would be able to see your mom and you guys.

That works great for us, and allowed my granddaughter to know who I was when she saw me again, after not seeing me since she was a few weeks old in January. If you haven't tried it, it's amazing, since you have no other way of seeing her. No pat downs, no long waits at an airport..just a nice in person (almost!) time together, at no cost. If she doesn't have a laptop, there will be some great sales on Friday..instead of buying a one time air ticket, it would enable her to visit with you often (if she uses her ticket money).

 

[CPT Tripss]

In regards to photography/filming...

My wife emailed the TSA at MCO and MSY yesterday about recording the Pat-down at security because if her crazy sister gets picked, she wanted my wife to film it.

Here's the reply she got from MCO (nothing from MSY yet).

Yeap . . . thanks for posting.

I'm sorry, I guess I wasn't clear enough. I'm talking about the new scans that show much more. I personally feel (over a dozen cruises in the past three years) they are very laid back in the cruise ship scans. I've bought some stuff in different ports that they never gave a second thought too..stuff that would have been given an actual look at at most airports that I've flown through. Sometimes when we go through the scanners, the people are chatting and paying no attention. Perhaps that hasn't happened to you, but it has to many people I've talked with on cruise ships.

Certainly hasn't happened on on several lines. They want to catch the booze smugglers.

 

[hambirg]

First, for the person that said Russia wasn't fascist. . .you are sadly mistaken. Just because they called it communism, doesn't make it so. Kinda like calling the US a republic.

Ok, back to the subject at hand, literally apparently. The people that think this is any kind of security are living in fantasy land. We are 10 steps behind those that want to do us harm. The Israeli Security Forces, who are the most knowledgeable, best trained in the world when it comes to fighting terrorism, have said this is a joke. Like I posted in another thread. . .somebody could walk into an airport with 2 duffel bags full of explosives and go right up to the security check point with no problems. . .they could blow up more people waiting in line for their friendly TSA pat downs, than they could hope to get in a single plane bombing. Terrorists are having bombs implanted into women's breasts. . .one had a bomb inserted in his bum. It's called keistering. They can swallow them too just like drug smugglers. None of what we are doing will protect from any of those things. If they are really concerned. . .they would have us doing the kind of strip searches they do in prisons. . .get naked, bend over, spread them and cough. The terrorists are already there. But that isn't what's happening here. Instead we are subjected to mall cops feeling us up and apparently very young children too, just so that the public feels safe enough to continue flying and not hurt the commercial airline industry. It's a friggin joke!

You are not anymore at risk flying than you are showing up to Walmart on Black Friday. . .they will find a way. So if airplanes are no longer a feasible mechanism they will choose another route and the process starts all over again. We need to quit doinking with "randomly" selected hawt women and children and and start taking some serious action identifying, cataloging and dealing with the truly dangerous people swiftly and covertly.

 

[DMRick]

Certainly hasn't happened on on several lines. They want to catch the booze smugglers.

And no one knows how to get around that, do they LOL. Like I said, a lot gets through.

 

[kaytieeldr]

Caught a blip on the news about Delta considering refunding holiday travel tickets - on a case by case basis - due to consumers being upset about these new procedures and no longer wanting to fly..

I'm glad I'm not a part-owner of Delta. They're going to get more people applying for refunds because they were able to get a better rate elsewhere (or even on Delta) or for schedule reasons than people upset with the new security screening procedures.

I see, frankly, I think this 'its all because of the economy' is backpedaling because no-one likes to end up with egg on their face and be proven wrong.

Really? You genuinely don't think that, even with Thanksgiving traditionally being a 'family get-together' holiday and most families not living in Orlando, the economy - not a ten-day-old security change - is why there are still seats available to Orlando?

I'm flying to a vacation destination the middle of next month. I'm monitoring the plane in both directions. While the return flight hasn't changed the outbound flight has, hold on - fifteen MORE assigned seats as of yesterday than it did a week earlier.

People ARE flying. They're still buying tickets for 2010 holiday flights - even AFTER the new security procedures started.

 

[surfgirl]

A few people have talked about doing more extensive security screening, like Israeli. While I haven't been through that specific security, I've been through the extensive questioning about 10 years ago and it would add HUGE HUGE delays to the entire system.

We were flying from Belfast to the US via Amsterdam as a group of 4 (me, husband, another couple). We had been golfing and in Amsterdam, on the way back, we were individually talked to... had a conversation with for about 10-15 minutes individually. I think there were 2 agents and then they compared notes.

We were there during heavy political turmoil, as they were voting on the Good Friday Agreement in 1998, but I was surprised how long the conversation took and the little petty details that they asked. "Where did you play ? How well did you play? What was the weather? Where did you stay?" Details that you would know if you did what we said, but ones that would catch you if you did something else.

But think about a flight of 200 (or more) people and how long that would take. In this case, it was "profiling" ... when they saw where we were coming from, we had extra attention, but everyone on the flight went through some of this.

I just wanted to share this example because it would be a huge burden on cost (agents required), training, time delays and also facilities (need the space to "hold" people while the entire plane is cleared.

 

[JLTraveling]

It looks like there IS some merit to the argument that enhanced security is unconstitutional. Took him over 2 hours, but this guy managed to prove it to the TSA:

http://noblasters.com/

He flew into Cincinnati International from Paris. Apparently in that airport, returning international travelers go through the sterile area. So they have to be screened AFTER their flights. He simply politely refused to be scanned or patted down.

 

[LuvOrlando]

First, for the person that said Russia wasn't fascist. . .you are sadly mistaken. Just because they called it communism, doesn't make it so. Kinda like calling the US a republic.

Ok, back to the subject at hand, literally apparently. The people that think this is any kind of security are living in fantasy land. We are 10 steps behind those that want to do us harm. The Israeli Security Forces, who are the most knowledgeable, best trained in the world when it comes to fighting terrorism, have said this is a joke. Like I posted in another thread. . .somebody could walk into an airport with 2 duffel bags full of explosives and go right up to the security check point with no problems. . .they could blow up more people waiting in line for their friendly TSA pat downs, than they could hope to get in a single plane bombing. Terrorists are having bombs implanted into women's breasts. . .one had a bomb inserted in his bum. It's called keistering. They can swallow them too just like drug smugglers. None of what we are doing will protect from any of those things. If they are really concerned. . .they would have us doing the kind of strip searches they do in prisons. . .get naked, bend over, spread them and cough. The terrorists are already there. But that isn't what's happening here. Instead we are subjected to mall cops feeling us up and apparently very young children too, just so that the public feels safe enough to continue flying and not hurt the commercial airline industry. It's a friggin joke!

You are not anymore at risk flying than you are showing up to Walmart on Black Friday. . .they will find a way. So if airplanes are no longer a feasible mechanism they will choose another route and the process starts all over again. We need to quit doinking with "randomly" selected hawt women and children and and start taking some serious action identifying, cataloging and dealing with the truly dangerous people swiftly and covertly.

Well then, based on your personal philosophy, I guess I can just call the sky purple and declare all the books wrong. Not sure how far it would get me to follow your basic belief system so I don't think I'll do it, but feel free to go on that way yourself. I'll stick to commonly held practices and principles myself. To each their own

My Poly Sci classes were VERY specific about what was what. There is a whole Social Science devoted to just that. I think you are confusing the disparity of the fundamental belief system on paper as opposed to it in practice with where the ideology sits as a defined school of thought.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

A few people have talked about doing more extensive security screening, like Israeli. While I haven't been through that specific security, I've been through the extensive questioning about 10 years ago and it would add HUGE HUGE delays to the entire system.

We were flying from Belfast to the US via Amsterdam as a group of 4 (me, husband, another couple). We had been golfing and in Amsterdam, on the way back, we were individually talked to... had a conversation with for about 10-15 minutes individually. I think there were 2 agents and then they compared notes.

We were there during heavy political turmoil, as they were voting on the Good Friday Agreement in 1998, but I was surprised how long the conversation took and the little petty details that they asked. "Where did you play ? How well did you play? What was the weather? Where did you stay?" Details that you would know if you did what we said, but ones that would catch you if you did something else.

But think about a flight of 200 (or more) people and how long that would take. In this case, it was "profiling" ... when they saw where we were coming from, we had extra attention, but everyone on the flight went through some of this.

I just wanted to share this example because it would be a huge burden on cost (agents required), training, time delays and also facilities (need the space to "hold" people while the entire plane is cleared.

Agreed - not all security measures are scalable. There are over 10,000 flights every day in America. What can be done with ease in a small country might not be feasible in America. The cost to train and maintain a staff large enough to handle this type of screening in America would be prohibitively high - much, much higher than the purchase of the scanners.

 

[JLTraveling]

A few people have talked about doing more extensive security screening, like Israeli. While I haven't been through that specific security, I've been through the extensive questioning about 10 years ago and it would add HUGE HUGE delays to the entire system.

We were flying from Belfast to the US via Amsterdam as a group of 4 (me, husband, another couple). We had been golfing and in Amsterdam, on the way back, we were individually talked to... had a conversation with for about 10-15 minutes individually. I think there were 2 agents and then they compared notes.

We were there during heavy political turmoil, as they were voting on the Good Friday Agreement in 1998, but I was surprised how long the conversation took and the little petty details that they asked. "Where did you play ? How well did you play? What was the weather? Where did you stay?" Details that you would know if you did what we said, but ones that would catch you if you did something else.

But think about a flight of 200 (or more) people and how long that would take. In this case, it was "profiling" ... when they saw where we were coming from, we had extra attention, but everyone on the flight went through some of this.

I just wanted to share this example because it would be a huge burden on cost (agents required), training, time delays and also facilities (need the space to "hold" people while the entire plane is cleared.

Thank you for sharing your experience. Out of curiosity, did you feel violated or interrogated by the questioning, or was it a polite and reasonably comfortable experience?

The thing is, under the Israeli model, it wouldn't be 200 people from a flight going through that. Like you mentioned, most people on your particular flight didn't undergo such thorough questioning. I'm not familiar with the Amsterdam procedures, but under the Israeli procedures the vast majority of travelers only get a couple of very basic questions. Highly trained people are studying travel patterns (the reason you were interviewed in Amsterdam) and airport behaviors. Only those who pop for suspicious behavior are more thoroughly interviewed.

It would cost money to give TSA screeners the requisite training, absolutely. But I don't believe that it would cause travel backups if properly implemented. Besides, if the entire point is "safety," wouldn't it be better to use a method that has actually been proven to work?

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

... I'll stick to commonly held practices and principles myself. To each their own

With respect fascism vs socialism, you are correct. The USSR was not communist, it was socialist, but it was also not fascist (though many of its policies certainly fell in line with common fascist practices).

The thing that makes many feel that it was fascist is the military leadership and nationalist tendencies. But it was brought forth under the banner of an economic class-based civil war and a movement to create economic equality through government ownership and management of everything. This is socialism.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

...The thing is, under the Israeli model, it wouldn't be 200 people from a flight going through that...

According to the information posted earlier, everyone is interviewed in Israel before they are allowed to fly. Some are given more extensive interviews, but everyone is interviewed.

 

[LuvOrlando]

Really? You genuinely don't think that, even with Thanksgiving traditionally being a 'family get-together' holiday and most families not living in Orlando, the economy - not a ten-day-old security change - is why there are still seats available to Orlando?

Yes, I really do think that this is all backlash. Take a moment and look at WDW's peak seasons, the week of Thanksgiving is squarely in the middle. I've been there during this time of year and the place is normally absolutely mobbed. I had to pay a HUGE premium and buy my airline tickets far in advance and pay more for my room. By the time we were a month out my SIL wanted to switch a flight and there wasn't a seat left for her to move into. Again, I really do think this, it's based partly upon verifiable info and partly on personal experience so for me, it's reasonable.

 

[JLTraveling]

According to the information posted earlier, everyone is interviewed in Israel before they are allowed to fly. Some are given more extensive interviews, but everyone is interviewed.

Correct. Everyone is interviewed...a handful of short questions asked at the same time as you present your boarding pass, walk through the metal detector and have your bags X-rayed. It doesn't add more than possibly a few seconds to the process. By contrast, the enhanced pat downs and body scanners add at least one to two minutes.

 

[olwyngdh]

I think the dissent is growing, but for many--mom is going to kill 'em if they don't show up.

But if airlines are offering refunds for cancellations as luvorlando has posted that Delta has done. That isn't the ecomony--that is the dissent. No matter how poor the economy is right now--those non-refundable ticket policies are not flexible at all. For Delta to say they will refund money--that is pretty big. (I haven't checked links or looked into this--just going based on what LuvOrlando has posted.)

They are considering it.
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/money/delta-may-consider-refunds-over-screening-issue-1067543.html

The significant portion of the article is:
Smith says a non-refundable ticket is still just that: non-refundable if you don't use it.

Officials at Continental and US Airways said much the same thing — customers could get their money back only if they bought a refundable ticket. Airlines usually charge more for those.

So it looks like, if you purchased a refundable ticket, it can be refunded on a case by case basis, if you didn't it can't.