TSA mess and the police

[tiggerplus5]

Sure I am. Let me show you:

I invoke Godwin's Law!

See - simple.

hehehehehehehehehe! No hysteria here.

 

[JLTraveling]

Sure I am. Let me show you:

I invoke Godwin's Law!

See - simple.

Okay then. I'm glad you have such a sense of humor about it. Those of us who lost relatives have a more difficult time finding the humor in this topic.

 

[JLTraveling]

The House of Representatives isn't too happy with the new pat downs:

http://www.politico.com/blogs/laurarozen/1110/House_staffer_on_TSA_patdown_demo_They_shot_themselves_in_the_foot_.html?showall

And public support is clearly waning:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/11/22/AR2010112205514.html

Yes, two-thirds are still in favor of enhanced security. But that's dropped from 80% in the past week.

 

[tiggerplus5]

Okay then. I'm glad you have such a sense of humor about it. Those of us who lost relatives have a more difficult time finding the humor in this topic.

You are the one resorting to Nazi comparisons. Sheesh! Just because you think the comparisons are valid does not make you appear rational. That's the whole point.

You have no right tell anyone what they "can" and "can't" do on these boards. DisneyBamaFan just proved it. This is still America, not Nazi Germany. Isn't it great! He does have to abide by the rules on these boards. The owners of the Dis have all the rights to award demerits or ban someone outright. It's the American way!

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

Okay then. I'm glad you have such a sense of humor about it. Those of us who lost relatives have a more difficult time finding the humor in this topic.

Okay, you are extremely condescending and will probably make by ignore list, but let me respond to this one.

I worked on the 97th floor of the WTC on 9/11. I lost 295 co-workers on 9/11, many of whom were dear friends. I also served in the 10th Mountain Division, so I know a little bit about losing friends and risking everything in support of freedom. But keep trying. Maybe you'll get something right if you post enough.

 

[JLTraveling]

Okay, you are extremely condescending and will probably make by ignore list, but let me respond to this one.

I worked on the 97th floor of the WTC on 9/11. I lost 295 co-workers on 9/11, many of whom were dear friends. I also served in the 10th Mountain Division, so I know a little bit about losing friends and risking everything in support of freedom. But keep trying. Maybe you'll get something right if you post enough.

I'm very sorry to hear of your losses. And I'm not making fun of them. I wish that you wouldn't find it necessary to make fun of mine. If that makes me condescending, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it.

You are the one resorting to Nazi comparisons. Sheesh! Just because you think the comparisons are valid does not make you appear rational. That's the whole point.

Then why not tell me why the comparisons are invalid and irrational? I fail to understand why a handful of posters resort to personally insulting me rather than explaining their thoughts on the matter. Sure, it's your right. But what point does it serve?

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

I'm very sorry to hear of your losses. And I'm not making fun of them. I wish that you wouldn't find it necessary to make fun of mine. If that makes me condescending, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it.

If you can't laugh now, 9 years later, then you should probably seek counseling. I did. It helped me. No joke - it helps.

If you don't want people poking fun at you then you need to stop treating other posters like idiots. Read your posts in this thread. We can disagree without being condescending or disrespectful of one another - even on the Dis.

Peace...

 

[JLTraveling]

If you can't laugh now, 9 years later, then you should probably seek counseling. I did. It helped me. No joke - it helps.

If you don't want people poking fun at you then you need to stop treating other posters like idiots. Read your posts in this thread. We can disagree without being condescending or disrespectful of one another - even on the Dis.

Peace...

Have you seen some of the abuse I've taken throughout this thread? So have others that have spoken out against the new security measures. And the common thread between those who have insulted us has been that we're hysterical, irrational and paranoid, and our concerns are without merit. We've had our words twisted and thrown back at us, been accused of fearmongering, had our entire educational backgrounds ripped apart and told that everything we think is flatly "wrong." I am more than happy to debate any issue respectfully and even peacefully, but I'm not willing to sit back and be told how hysterical I am.

 

[Jennasis]

80 pages.

Now that's entertainment.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

80 pages.

Now that's entertainment.

 

[DMRick]

I'm sorry

I worked on the 97th floor of the WTC on 9/11. I lost 295 co-workers on 9/11, many of whom were dear friends. I also served in the 10th Mountain Division, so I know a little bit about losing friends and risking everything in support of freedom. But keep trying. Maybe you'll get something right if you post enough.

 

[kaytieeldr]

And if the announcement "no one under 12" was made on the 17th, again - this is 2010 and we're talking national security. I'd *hope* the word would get out to the agents, no? What's the point, if it doesn't?

BUT - doesn't matter. Apparently enhanced pat downs are the only thing they cannot do to children under 12. Regular random (which this one, was random) pat down's are a-okay.

That's the point of random.

 

[Anjelica]

Actually, remembering my cousin's stories from Viet Nam, and some of my husbands from Iraq, I would feel better with children being patted down in addition to adults. Kids are, and have been, used.

I am very much of the all or nothing school. If we are going to use this technology and the pat downs, it needs to be done on everyone. If we are not doing it on everyone, we shouldn't be bothering with it--especially if it is random people *except* these groups. That just tells the bad guys where to hide their stuff.

I agree - it was a kid who threw the exploding IED at my brother's vehicle that caused him to lose his right leg - wasn't more than 11/12. Children have and will continued to be used to carry out deadly attacks.

I didn't have any plans to fly out until January but lucky me I fly out Monday from STL to Baltimore - I will definetly be watching more closely and form my own opinion on the new patdowns, etc. (which again seem to be what most of Europe, etc. has been dealing with for years now - Just this past April I was patted down in Ireland more thoroughly than any airport in the states here).

 

[kaytieeldr]

Or, one could observe it demonstrates the willingness of people to cede their privacy, dignity and personal rights to government agencies.

There are clearly valid reports of ostomy bags being spilled and breast prostheses being removed. When did that become OK behavior by anyone let alone by government employees?

No, this kind of stuff isn't okay, you're right. I'm aware of one passenger with an ostomy bag who had a major problem with the TSA, and one passenger who had to remove a breast prostheses. These are truly horrible incidents and shouldn't have happened - but are there more? It would seem if there were reports (plural) of each incident, they'd be more public.

I have experienced TSA patdowns (prior to the new procedures) that involved touching in places that should not be touched by strangers . . . places that a cop can't touch until s/he has probable cause. And patdowns that were down right painful because the TSAer ignored my statement about recent surgery and squeezed.

No, this kind of stuff isn't OK.

I've had several pre-enhanced pat-downs, and never been touched in 'places that shouldn't be touched by strangers' - and they were all done by strangers. If you were touched in such places, those would have been the times to file complaints. The TSA does listen.

 

[skater]

katieedlr - what makes you say the tsa listens?

 

[kaytieeldr]

Don't you know, you must be "properly" clothed in order to have the intimate pat down.


I wonder whether kwelch had an opportunity to divest and go through to WTMD a second time?

One may request that the pat down be conducted in private. It's an individual decision - I want any patdown I recieve (and I get them regularly) to be in public. I do not want to add to the "I never saw any one being patted down" chorus.

It's very likely/apparent that kwelch wasn't aware she could request a private area in which to be patted down. Stinks. The TSA should be informing passengers - but it takes more time, too, and most passengers are in a hurry. Forums like this - even threads like this - are good for sharing such information.

 

[kaytieeldr]

Some is bunk, some is not. I'm not basing my decision to not fly on the sensational stories out there. I've seen the backscatter pictures and believe that it is a "virtual" strip search. If I was forced to fly because of a job that required it, I would opt for the pat down. As long as I saw the TSA agent put on new gloves.
I don't have to fly for any reason, so I opt out of flying altogether. Doesn't mean I don't have empathy with those that still have to go through it.

Unfortunately, me driving puts more risk on others by putting another car on the road when I need to travel. So my driving to WDW puts the public in general more in danger of dying than a bomber on a plane. Not really an argument, but just food for thought.

Do you mind if I ask why? With the possible exception of running a hand inside the waistband of someone's clothing, all patting is done over the clothing.

 

[surfgirl]

Courts have determined that it is legal to photograph and record in public places and specifically airports.

Try videotaping, using a camera, or even a cell phone in Customs and Immigration. I seem to remember Immigration being more testy about it than Customs, but after sleep deprivation and flying for that many hours, I could have it backwards.


For everyone who is concerned about the privacy issue, I'm more concerned with the day to day electronic monitoring that marketing and IT geniuses are doing. I don't like when I've visited a company's website that I get an email the next day saying 'thanks for visiting... here's something else you might be interested in'. I don't like cookies (chocolate chip are okay, but that isn't the type of cookie that concerns me!). Even the fraud alerts on credit cards are based on patterns of spending ... I don't like that they've figured out that much 'background' on my habits. I think most people would be surprised by the amount of security cameras monitoring us. Other than going "off the grid" we don't have a lot of options.

Even IF scans are kept, they can't be matched to individual names. When you show your boarding pass to get in the line at security, they don't write it down when you go through - they are just verifying that the name on the ticket and the ID match and that you are that individual.

 

[MomRN]

I've been following this thread off and on... and went on a WDW trip somewhere iin there also. Oddly, before all this thread, and all this media coverage, I had a dream about TSA wanting to do a body cavity search on my 4 year old, and me calling my husband to come back to the airport because I was going to go to jail.

Fortunately, we went through routine security. I personally don't care to go through a body scanner or have a pat-down. It's kind of the same theory I have on medical procedures... want a nursing student to practive IVs on someone? Here I am with my arms stuck out, stick away. But, if you have to put an IV in my child you better find your most experienced IV nurse on the floor.

Anyway, I was just wondering if people would feel any better if nurses were the one's doing the pat-downs? From a nurses's standpoint, I can see where the TSA is going all wrong with their approach. It would be like me going straight into a patients room and heading for their personal areas before even introducing myself. There is a proper way to go about doing anything invasive, and it just doesn't seem like TSA is following those simple rules. (Earn trust...small talk a few minutes, start with the least evasive and go to the more evasive... explain what you are doing and where you are doing it... respect all medical equipment such as ostomies as part of that person's body... assume to do it in private unless the person wants family around).

I think part of the problem is that they are making an already uncomfortable procedure even more uncomfortable because lack of compassion and proper training.

Personally, I would still feel uncomfortable for a patdown on my child... but I may give a little more leeway and credit to a nurse with 30 years experience as opposed to a 30 year old man whose background is unknown.

 

[kaytieeldr]

Google Sam . . . then decide.

That said, his stunt was a good one. The concept that he had to put his clothes on in order to have is privates searched is a hoot.

I have a great sense of humor, I really do. I just don't get what's a hoot about refusing to follow procedures in place. Perhaps Wolanyk's action will cause the TSA to create a third alternative - scanner / pat-down / strip down - but while they are using alternatives A and B only, passengers should expect to comply with one or the other (or, yes, both if one indicates the other is needed).