TSA mess and the police

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I think, what it comes down to for me is I don't believe that I should have to show my naked body or allow my genitals to be touched in order to travel freely about the country.

I'm also concerned that these scanners and patdowns are a placebo -- giving the illusion of making us safer -- but not really making us safer.

TSA agents have a high fail rate on patdowns. And the use of scanners has been discontinued by other countries because they've been found to be ineffective.

I think we're giving up too much for too little in return.

ETA: My other concern -- today these machines are in airports. Where will they show up next? Schools, my place of employment? There is a company making money off of these machines. They're going to look to expand their market.


You shouldn't have to show your naked body or be groped in order to travel. And no matter what some believe, it is your right to fly in America without being subjected to an unreasonable search. I believe this new security system is unconstitutional and nobody has given me evidence that its not.
If I set off an alarm or commit a crime or do anything else that reasonably causes suspicion than have away at my body - do the naked picture and the pat down. But until I give just cause, I still maintain that this is an unreasonable search and nobody would be allowed to do this anywhere else. For those who think this is reasonable, do you think we should add these scanners to hospitals, malls, train stations, courthouses, etc.? Also, if anyone wants to show me how this is constitutional, I'll listen. (I even promise to be open and non-judgemental, unlike some who will remain unnamed :goodvibes).
 
I actually feel kind of sorry for the TSA agents. Next time you are in line look at the people around you. Lots of old, stinky, disheveled people. I know that would be a major turn on to grope them. What percent of Americans are obese? I'm sure they are awesome to look at "nude." Seriously, how many people really think someone would get turned on looking at your x-ray or doing a pat down on you. My wife wouldn't even want to do those things to me. :rotfl:


Funny point :rotfl:. I'm really not worried about someone being turned on by me or even by my cute teen DD. Its still an invasion of privacy that would not be allowed without a reason anywhere else.
 
Funny point :rotfl:. I'm really not worried about someone being turned on by me or even by my cute teen DD. Its still an invasion of privacy that would not be allowed without a reason anywhere else.
Then please start calling the current procedure an invasion of privacy, and stop claiming it's naked images and groping.

Hyperbole will get you nowhere.
 
Then please start calling the current procedure an invasion of privacy, and stop claiming it's naked images and groping.

Hyperbole will get you nowhere.


OKay. But isn't it a naked picture? And it honestly would feel like groping to me. I guess if Ronald Reagan can call ketchup a vegetable, the tsa can call groping an enhanced pat down!
 

Source? Not arguing, asking. I know they miss things in luggage, but I wasn't aware of a high fail rate with patdowns. If this has been the case, perhaps the new front-hand patdowns will provide better results.

There was a classified TSA report -- which of course got leaked and published in the newspaper -- that showed a 60%-75% fail rate of TSA employees.

The fact of the matter is, those doing patdowns are expected to find materials as small as a pen cap -- almost impossible to do through bulky clothing or with thick seams in clothing -- whether you are using front hand or back hand patdowns. Not to mention anything placed in a body cavity. And the scanners aren't the answer as they don't detect liquids or plastic explosives.

I think we should be looking into the Israeli method of screening passengers rather than wasting time and resources feeling up every man, woman, teenager, nun, etc. who wants to fly.
 
Then please start calling the current procedure an invasion of privacy, and stop claiming it's naked images and groping.

Hyperbole will get you nowhere.

It IS naked images and groping. And an invasion of privacy. I'll call it all three!!! ;)
 
Then please start calling the current procedure an invasion of privacy, and stop claiming it's naked images and groping.

Hyperbole will get you nowhere.

The two are not mutually exclusive. It can be naked images and groping without being sexually motivated--just look at the porn industry for proof. You really think those actors and actress are really having all the fun they're portraying?
 
No, their determination is nothing more than the co-mingling of the opinions of a lot of people (read, lobbyists) motivated by many factors that have nothing to do with the perspectives of the nation (read, money). The fact that you choose to have blind faith in them
I never said I had blind faith in them. Please stop with this deceptive corruption of what I'm posting, just to have something easier to argue against. What I said was that their determination was reflective of the co-mingling of perspectives of the nation - while your personal preference is not. That's critical. You continually insinuate that your personal preference should prevail. It shouldn't. Critics of the policy are trying to impose their own personal preference instead of the determination made by the duly authorized reasonable consideration of many perspectives, and there is no legitimate defense for doing so.

to do what's right by us does not in fact make us their primary concern at all.
Their primary concern is doing whatever will prompt voters to vote for the people who put them in that position. That is superior in merit to the imposition of your own personal preference on everyone. If your personal preference had so much merit that would warrant it prevailing, it would more likely to be that which would prompt voters to vote for the people who put them in that position than what they actually decided to do. To claim otherwise is, again, to accuse them of wrongdoing, but you've refused to explain your accusations, so how can anyone conclude that your accusations have any merit?

As soon as they present evidence of this duly authorized reasonable consideration, I will take a look at it.
You're placing yourself in a position of supreme and definitive arbiter over that which affects all of us. You haven't been duly appointed to that position. You have the power to play arbiter with regard to that which affects only you: Don't fly.

If you want to run the agency, then become qualified and connected enough to warrant that appointment. Otherwise, you have no especial privilege with regard to owning that portion of the public trust. If you are dissatisfied with the quality of people who are granted that portion of the public trust, then blame the spoiled-brat Americans that I referred to earlier, who's appetite for salaciousness and sensationalism ensures that the best people to make such decisions refuse to seek to serve the public. Regardless, even the determinations of these flawed people warrants magnitudes more merit than one person's personal preferences. Civilization requires a means of having conflicting perspectives drawn to resolution. Your personal fiat is not that means.

For now, there is no more proof that this was done in a legitimate effort to keep us safe
Again you are clearly demonstrating your narrow, one-dimensional view of the obligations and objectives of the agency and the government, clearly highlighting the lack of foundation of your implication that your personal preference should prevail over that of the duly appointed reasonable consideration the agency says it applied to this issue, and for which you've provided no evidence to show that they did not.

than is that it was done for more nefarious reasons.
What nefarious reasons? Someone arguing your side of the argument, a page or two ago, implied that people generally don't lie. I disagreed, but here you are implying that the TSA has "nefarious" motivations. That's just FUD. Again: Critics use such propaganda tactics to create fear, uncertainty and doubt to try to unfairly reverse conclusions where their own personal preference failed to prevail.

Not at all. I used the "quote" function to quote a post in which you stated what was clear to you. If you've changed your mind since making that post, I can hardly be held accountable for your changing whims.
I haven't changed my mind. I caught you trying to tell me what I think. Admit it and move on please.

Or a very clear indicator that the "duly authorized reasonable consideration" was neither reasonable nor considered.
FUD. No evidence... the only foundation you claim you have for making that accusation is that they disagree with you and that's not foundation. It's self-fulfilling circular-reasoning - something that you erroneously accused me of earlier.

Just because you see it differently doesn't make your determination accurate.
How I see "it", specifically, doesn't even enter into it: All that is necessary is that you are claiming something self-serving without foundation. That's all I'm pointing out and all that I need to make that point.

The only one-dimensional and inadequate argument here is the circular one you've been making for at least 40 pages, using quite a few words to say absolutely nothing.
In other words, you're saying, "Nuh-uh!" My argument is deliberately not one-dimensional: I repeatedly have referred to the fact that the agency and the government have myriad obligations and objectives, while you continually insist on the only criteria being one you care about. There is nothing circular about my argument: It is strongly supported by a foundation built from basic principles, indeed based on highlighting the absence of merit to the critic's advocacy. It may seem circular to you because it is sound; because what I'm actually saying is not readily refutable. That's because I don't post things if they're refutable. If they're refutable, then they don't deserve to be posted.

My field is mental health. I can assure you that I am well-versed in all relevant research concerning human behavior. Perhaps it is you that is misinformed.
So you claim. Did you even look up the research on the Attitude-Behavior Gap? If you really are in mental health, you should be outlining your objections to its principles, and explaining why you disagree with the conclusions of the volumes of research into the phenomenon, rather than trying to deny it exists.

I perverted nothing.
Of course you did. I caught you and showed it clearly.

In one post you stated that we cannot use higher-dollar security measures because the American public won't stand for it.
Quote me directly, so we can see how you have perverted the meaning of what I wrote. I'm growing tired of pointing out the deception your paraphrasing exhibits.

In one post you stated that we cannot use higher-dollar security measures because the American public won't stand for it.
Unlike you, I have never resorted to attacking someone's precise wording. I actually attack the issues.
Thanks for making it so easy to demonstrate the falsehood of what you posted, by posting these two lines so close together.
 
None of this is true.
All of it is true. What's the point of trying to contradict me if you're going to make it so easy to so readily contradict your contradiction with just as much merit as your original contradiction?

So, why do you think we need the new methods?
My contention was that no one in this thread knows the myriad obligations and objectives of the agency and the government in this regard. What makes you think I'm going to contradict myself?

And, of course, this seems like just another critics' tactic to try to draw attention away from the lack of foundation for the critics' advocacy: Create fear, uncertainty and doubt to try to distract attention away from the fact that they're just trying to scare the public into putting undue pressure on public servants to reverse a decision made as a reflection of reasonable consideration of multiple perspectives and in the context of myriad obligations and objectives.
 
Then please start ...
... claiming that ...
... the current procedure an invasion of privacy, and stop claiming it's naked images and groping. Hyperbole will get you nowhere.
I propose the above amendment to what you said. Regardless, hyperbole is a big part of my objection, here. Hyperbole is a major tool in the arsenal of fostering fear, uncertainty and doubt.
 
There was a classified TSA report -- which of course got leaked and published in the newspaper -- that showed a 60%-75% fail rate of TSA employees.

kjhfjhfgd.

Hopefully they will all be replaced with private security. I like that Sanford is getting on board with this. :thumbsup2
 
I did some checking today and discovered plenty of seats still open to even the most desirable locations for even the most desirable dates at reasonable prices. I looked at dates on either side of Thanksgiving and on either sides of Christmas. Seems like I'm not the only one putting my money where my mouth is... go figure.

Oh, and I really loved this article http://www.sun-sentinel.com/business/sfl-airport-scans-pat-downs-refual-20101121,0,5604032.story

Nothing warms my mother's heart like a good old game of chicken when it comes to my family... I give you one guess who is going to win. They can posture all they want, all I have to do is stay home... I can wait longer than they can, I can easily promise that.... tick tock - tick tock, every day is money lost.

Bottom line is the money I spend as a disposable luxury is money the industry needs as a necessity. Consumers totally have the upper hand.
 
I did some checking today and discovered plenty of seats still open to even the most desirable locations for even the most desirable dates at reasonable prices. I looked at dates on either side of Thanksgiving and on either sides of Christmas. Seems like I'm not the only one putting my money where my mouth is... go figure.

Yep, I did a similar search yesterday. It's just amusing to me that the pro-scanner people (not just on this thread, but in the media as well) keep insisting that this won't disrupt air travel, but the facts prove that it already is.


My favorite part of the whole thing was this:

Palm Beach Sheriff's Office spokesperson Teri Barbera said PBSO deputies stationed at the airport would become involved when requested by the TSA.

"We will handle each incident on a case-by-case basis," she said.

No one will be forcibly searched or arrested "just because they refuse to go through the security procedures," Barbera said. "That may rise to the level of suspicious behavior for the TSA, but it wouldn't rise to the level of suspicious behavior for a deputy," she said.

That was in direct response to the TSA putting out arrest threats for those who don't comply. Score one for democracy!

Nothing warms my mother's heart like a good old game of chicken when it comes to my family... I give you one guess who is going to win. They can posture all they want, all I have to do is stay home... I can wait longer than they can, I can easily promise that.... tick tock - tick tock, every day is money lost.

Bottom line is the money I spend as a disposable luxury is money the industry needs as a necessity. Consumers totally have the upper hand.

Absolutely, irrefutably true! And a very good way to put it. Relatively few people are in the position that they *have* to fly. With teleconferencing, even very few business trips are *vital*. The airline industry won't put up with this for very long if their bottom line is impacted.
 
Well, I guess we now have part of the answer as to what the TSA is doing about medical devices. I challenge anyone to claim that this is somehow an exercise in safety and security.

TSA Pat-Down Leaves Man Covered in Urine
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40291856/ns/travel-news/

The poor guy tried repeatedly to tell the TSA officers about his ostomy and they refused to listen. I'm just shaking right now from reading the story. Can anyone honestly, in good faith, STILL say that this is okay?
 
“But enhanced pat-downs are not a new issue for people with disabilities who travel," Lipp said. "They've always had trouble getting through the security checkpoint."

Still, Lipp said the TSA knows there’s a problem. “This came up during a recent meeting of the agency’s disability advisory board and I expect to see a procedure coming in place shortly that will directly address the pat-down procedures for people with disabilities.”

Sounds like they are aware that there has been a problem, and are working to address that problem. What do you want them to do? Throw themselves on a bonfire screaming mea culpa? :confused:
 
Sounds like they are aware that there has been a problem, and are working to address that problem. What do you want them to do? Throw themselves on a bonfire screaming mea culpa? :confused:

That might be a start [/sarcasm]. No, I want them to do away with the invasive screening procedures. Well, actually, I want the TSA dismantled, airport security returned to pre-9/11 standards, and explosive-sniffing dogs brought in. I want the focus returned to stopping terrorist plots long before they reach the airport, and I want the security theater to end.
 
That might be a start [/sarcasm]. No, I want them to do away with the invasive screening procedures. Well, actually, I want the TSA dismantled, airport security returned to pre-9/11 standards, and explosive-sniffing dogs brought in. I want the focus returned to stopping terrorist plots long before they reach the airport, and I want the security theater to end.

I want everything you said PLUS an armed captain and one or two armed passengers (conceal and carry volunteers).
 
Well, I guess we now have part of the answer as to what the TSA is doing about medical devices. I challenge anyone to claim that this is somehow an exercise in safety and security.

TSA Pat-Down Leaves Man Covered in Urine
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40291856/ns/travel-news/

The poor guy tried repeatedly to tell the TSA officers about his ostomy and they refused to listen. I'm just shaking right now from reading the story. Can anyone honestly, in good faith, STILL say that this is okay?

What about the woman who had to show her breast prosthetic.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40278427/ns/travel-news/
 
I want everything you said PLUS an armed captain and one or two armed passengers (conceal and carry volunteers).

That sounds good. I love the idea of volunteers with concealed permits, I never thought of that but it's brilliant! :thumbsup2
 
Absolutely, irrefutably true! And a very good way to put it. Relatively few people are in the position that they *have* to fly. With teleconferencing, even very few business trips are *vital*. The airline industry won't put up with this for very long if their bottom line is impacted.

I don't see this topic as one that will cause an effect on whether or not business travelers continue to fly.... In this job market a large percentage of employees will travel by air if requested by their employer no matter the security requirements. Many employers wouldn't put up with I don't like the screening process excuses.

Even with special "video conference rooms" this is not always a viable option. I just returned home from a trip where there was a definite difference between those in the room and those on the call.

Personal travel maybe but I don't see it on the business traveler level.
 
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