TSA mess and the police

[bicker]

The financial effects of what is happening TODAY will not be visible to the investors until the NEXT financial reporting period.

That's actually not the way things work. To some extent, analysts drive the market, and so current operational measures do very quickly find their way into the stock market.

 

[LuvOrlando]

I have a degree in Economics and one in Finance that both say you are wrong.

I won't explain why you are wrong because it's long winded and a bore but if I ever said what you just said in school I would have gotten an F, and deservedly so.

Suffice it to say that the function of the stock market, a secondary market, is thoroughly separate and distinct from the actual primary business.

 

[bicker]

I have a degree in Economics and one in Finance that both say you are wrong.

I have real world experience in industry that says I'm correct.

 

[LuvOrlando]

Fine, prove that my ORIGINAL statement is incorrect without ever referring to my statement at all. For clarities sake i am talking about my statement in post 1040, you said I'm wrong so prove it.

No fancy footwork designed to convolute the issue. Facts, pure facts and definitions are all I'm interested in seeing.

 

[kinntj]

With all the screams of not flying, seems like the airlines are cautiously optimistic.

[/I]

That's wonderful. They are cautiously optimistic and the flyers are feeling safe. Sounds like everything is...

 

[CathrynRose]

I'm running out the door, so I don't know if this has been posted (it was put up on YouTube 24 hours ago)


Young Boy strip searched by TSA
Description:
Lets get the facts straight first. Before the video started the boy went through a metal detector and didn't set it off but was selected for a pat down. The boy was shy so the TSA couldn't complete the full pat on the young boy. The father tried several times to just hold the boys arms out for the TSA agent but i guess it didn't end up being enough for the guy. I was about 30 ft away so i couldn't hear their conversation if there was any. The enraged father pulled his son shirt off and gave it to the TSA agent to search, thats when this video begins.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSQTz1bccL4


~ So much for the "not under 12" BS. I mean, really - you've got to be kidding me!!!!

 

[surfgirl]

I won't explain why you are wrong because it's long winded and a bore but if I ever said what you just said in school I would have gotten an F, and deservedly so.

Fine, prove that my ORIGINAL statement is incorrect without ever referring to my statement at all. For clarities sake i am talking about my statement in post 1040, you said I'm wrong so prove it.

You don't get to claim both ways. Either you expect people to prove why you are wrong and willing to do the same or you don't - in which case, you can't say "prove it".


However, with regard to the issue at hand...You are both actually right.

The fiscal actuals (ie. operating results) will not show any change until after the revenues (and lack of them, if the "I won't fly people" stand by their word) are reported.

The stock market, which is what many investors look at, looks at all known information about a product (in this case flying) and how any material changes will impact that. The stock price will be driven by all information out there.

so the way I read them is that you are both talking about different things, but both have points.

 

[bicker]

Fine, prove that my ORIGINAL statement is incorrect without ever referring to my statement at all.

As I told you, analysts project impact of current events on the company's value. This is basic stuff. Go back to the economics books you studied from. This is all very well covered.

You do realize, I hope, that you can just graciously say that you disagree and let it go.

However, with regard to the issue at hand...You are both actually right.

The fiscal actuals (ie. operating results) will not show any change until after the revenues (and lack of them, if the "I won't fly people" stand by their word) are reported.

The stock market, which is what many investors look at, looks at all known information about a product (in this case flying) and how any material changes will impact that. The stock price will be driven by all information out there.

so the way I read them is that you are both talking about different things, but both have points.

You've clarified the situation perfectly.

 

[PatsMom]

----------------------------------

Thanks for this link.. I thoroughly enjoy your reasonable, rational, right-to-the-point posts..

In case anyone wants to read the story rather than wading through the multitudes of long, convulted dissertations that tend to clog up this thread from time to time and make ones eyes glaze over, here it is:

----------------------

TSA pat-down leaves traveler covered in urine
'I was absolutely humiliated,' said bladder cancer survivor

Courtesy Thomas Sawyer
Thomas Sawyer, 61, said he was left "humiliated" and covered in urine after undergoing a TSA pat-down. By Harriet Baskas
Travel writer

msnbc.com contributor msnbc.com contributor
updated 2 hours 22 minutes ago 2010-11-21T00:16:18

A retired special education teacher on his way to a wedding in Orlando, Fla., said he was left humiliated, crying and covered with his own urine after an enhanced pat-down by TSA officers recently at Detroit Metropolitan Airport.

“I was absolutely humiliated, I couldn’t even speak,” said Thomas D. “Tom” Sawyer, 61, of Lansing, Mich.

Sawyer is a bladder cancer survivor who now wears a urostomy bag, which collects his urine from a stoma, or opening in his stomach. “I have to wear special clothes and in order to mount the bag I have to seal a wafer to my stomach and then attach the bag. If the seal is broken, urine can leak all over my body and clothes.”

On Nov. 7, Sawyer said he went through the security scanner at Detroit Metropolitan Airport. “Evidently the scanner picked up on my urostomy bag, because I was chosen for a pat-down procedure.”

Due to his medical condition, Sawyer asked to be screened in private. “One officer looked at another, rolled his eyes and said that they really didn’t have any place to take me,” said Sawyer. “After I said again that I’d like privacy, they took me to an office.”

Sawyer wears pants two sizes too large in order to accommodate the medical equipment he wears. He’d taken off his belt to go through the scanner and once in the office with security personnel, his pants fell down around his ankles. “I had to ask twice if it was OK to pull up my shorts,” said Sawyer, “And every time I tried to tell them about my medical condition, they said they didn’t need to know about that.”

Before starting the enhanced pat-down procedure, a security officer did tell him what they were going to do and how they were going to it, but Sawyer said it wasn’t until they asked him to remove his sweatshirt and saw his urostomy bag that they asked any questions about his medical condition.

“One agent watched as the other used his flat hand to go slowly down my chest. I tried to warn him that he would hit the bag and break the seal on my bag, but he ignored me. Sure enough, the seal was broken and urine started dribbling down my shirt and my leg and into my pants.”

The security officer finished the pat-down, tested the gloves for any trace of explosives and then, Sawyer said, “He told me I could go. They never apologized. They never offered to help. They acted like they hadn’t seen what happened. But I know they saw it because I had a wet mark.”

Humiliated, upset and wet, Sawyer said he had to walk through the airport soaked in urine, board his plane and wait until after takeoff before he could clean up.

“I am totally appalled by the fact that agents that are performing these pat-downs have so little concern for people with medical conditions,” said Sawyer.

Sawyer completed his trip and had no problems with the security procedures at the Orlando International Airport on his journey back home. He said he plans to file a formal complaint with the TSA.

When he does, said TSA spokesperson Dwayne Baird, “We will review the matter and take appropriate action if necessary.” In the meantime, Baird encourages anyone with a medical condition to read the TSA’s website section on assistive devices and mobility aids.

The website says that travelers with disabilities and medical conditions have “the option of requesting a private screening” and that security officers “will not ask nor require you to remove your prosthetic device, cast, or support brace.”

Sawyer said he's written to his senators, state representatives and the president of the United States. He’s also shared details of the incident online with members of the nonprofit Bladder Cancer Advocacy Network, many of whom have offered support and shared their travel experiences.

“I am a good American and I want safety for all passengers as much as the next person," Sawyer said. "But if this country is going to sacrifice treating people like human beings in the name of safety, then we have already lost the war.”

Bladder Cancer Advocacy Network executive director Claire Saxton said that there are hundreds of thousands of people living with ostomies in the United States. “TSA agents need to be trained to listen when someone tells them have a health issue and trained in knowing what an ostomy is. No one living with an ostomy should be afraid of flying because they’re afraid of being humiliated at the checkpoint.”

Eric Lipp, executive director of Open Doors Association, which works with businesses and the disability community, called what happened to Sawyer “unfortunate.”

“But enhanced pat-downs are not a new issue for people with disabilities who travel," Lipp said. "They've always had trouble getting through the security checkpoint."

Still, Lipp said the TSA knows there’s a problem. “This came up during a recent meeting of the agency’s disability advisory board and I expect to see a procedure coming in place shortly that will directly address the pat-down procedures for people with disabilities.”

Harriet Baskas is a frequent contributor to msnbc.com, authors the “Stuck at the Airport” blog and is a columnist for USATODAY.com. You can follow her on Twitter .



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No one deserves to be humiliated like that.. Would it really have been so terribly inconvenient for the TSA to LISTEN to what this man was saying during the pat down procedure? Disgusting - and no excuse for it..

Tom is a very private person and going public with his story was a very difficult thing to do. He is active on the BCAN Inspire message boards (bladder cancer advocacy network). We all encouraged him to make his story public. No one deserves what happened to him.

His reasons for going public are to bring attention to the problem and try to make things better, not to say the screenings are bad. He was perfectly willing to cooperate, he just wanted privacy and to put his belt back on so his pants would stop falling down. And due care taken around the ostomy bag to not dislodge the wafer and cause leakage.

 

[LuvOrlando]

You don't get to claim both ways. Either you expect people to prove why you are wrong and willing to do the same or you don't - in which case, you can't say "prove it".


However, with regard to the issue at hand...You are both actually right.

The fiscal actuals (ie. operating results) will not show any change until after the revenues (and lack of them, if the "I won't fly people" stand by their word) are reported.

The stock market, which is what many investors look at, looks at all known information about a product (in this case flying) and how any material changes will impact that. The stock price will be driven by all information out there.

so the way I read them is that you are both talking about different things, but both have points.

No, I was only talking about 1 thing. A mistake was made and the stock market, an altogether separate dynamic system with a separate set of goals, was brought into the dialogue. I simply pointed out the error.

Yes, they are 2 different things but asserting that I didn't know that and need to be directed is way off base. I absolutely 100% knew, it's 101 level stuff.

 

[skater]

John Pistole (head of TSA) is on CNN right now. He's saying a whole lot of nothing, but I did get an idea from something he glossed over. Pistole claims that it's hard to find the balance for each traveler--some want absolute security, while others are more concerned about privacy.

My thought: Why not allow individual airlines to opt out? People who want "security at all costs" can fly the airlines that participate, while those who are comfortable with a certain level of risk can fly the opt-out airlines (which would presumably use either pre-9/11 security or more recent pre-enhanced pat down procedures). That way everybody wins.

Amen!

 

[bicker]

No, I was only talking about 1 thing. A mistake was made and the stock market, an altogether separate dynamic system with a separate set of goals, was brought into the dialogue.

Nope... here's your message again:

The financial effects of what is happening TODAY will not be visible to the investors until the NEXT financial reporting period.

Emphasis added.

Investors for every major airline in the United States hold their ownership interest through the stock market. The assertion that the financial impact of operational changes will not be "visible to the investors" until the release of quarterly disclosures by the airline, for the quarter during which those changes are applied, is inconsistent with the reality of the industry.

 

[skater]

Even Hilary Clinton says she understands how offensive it must be for people that have gone through the "enhanced" pat down. She also said she would avoid it if she could. And after watching a video of a man's crotch being searched, Pistole said, "Its clearly - its invasive. Its not comfortable."

 

[kaytieeldr]

Amen!

Since JLTraveling hasn't really described how he would incorporate such a change, and since you agree with him, how would you do it? Realistically?

 

[skater]

Since JLTraveling hasn't really described how he would incorporate such a change, and since you agree with him, how would you do it? Realistically?

It was just in fun .

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

Even Hilary Clinton says she understands how offensive it must be for people that have gone through the "enhanced" pat down. She also said she would avoid it if she could. And after watching a video of a man's crotch being searched, Pistole said, "Its clearly - its invasive. Its not comfortable."

Does it come with a happy ending?

 

[mhsjax]

Does it come with a happy ending?

Oh, you are bad. I love it.

 

[JLTraveling]

Since JLTraveling hasn't really described how he would incorporate such a change, and since you agree with him, how would you do it? Realistically?

I'm actually a "she" for the record. And as I've stated repeatedly, it wasn't a serious suggestion. Merely a tongue in cheek look at one of many options that would be just as realistic as what they're doing now.

 

[bicker]

Even Hilary Clinton says she understands how offensive it must be for people that have gone through the "enhanced" pat down.

What else is she going to say, in light of the exploitation of the sensationalistic media, that the critics have been engaging in all week, that I've been referring to throughout this entire thread? Indeed, this is exactly what I've been warning about, that the cynical tactic being employed by critics is going to place irrational pressure on politicians to replace a sound decision with an unsound one. Nothing could demonstrate that as much as the Secretary of State making statements about the operations of a different cabinet secretary's agency. (TSA is part of DHS, not State.)

She also said she would avoid it if she could.

Indeed, she seems to be indicating that she'd prefer the scanner to the pat-down.

 

[LuvOrlando]

As I told you, analysts project impact of current events on the company's value. This is basic stuff. Go back to the economics books you studied from. This is all very well covered.

You do realize, I hope, that you can just graciously say that you disagree and let it go.


You've clarified the situation perfectly.

Bicker, if I had the time to explain to you an entire education I promise you I would. But I don't, I'm sorry I don't but I just don't.

You are a fascinating individual. I don't quite know what your deal is but for whatever reason you seem to confuse exhausting your audience's patience with winning. It's not the same thing.

Right is right and no matter how much you carry on you can't make something that is untrue true. I'm right, I know I'm right and I don't need you to agree with me to be right. I'm done here, not because you are right or because I'm angry (I'm not BTW) but because it makes no sense to me to disagree with you. You hold your refusal to grant validation as if it matters, it doesn't.... at least not to me.

The next time you disagree with a post of mine either back it up or I'm just going to skip right over you. I'm not being mean and I don't dislike you, I like colorful people and if you're anything, you ARE colorful, I just really don't know what else to do with you. Also, I am actually reading so if you CAN prove it then by all means do so, but if not... sigh... well, I guess I already said.

Take care ok.