TSA mess and the police

[Flight]

TSA is a government agency, and if you don't like a gov't agency's policies, then as Citizens, you have a way through channels to complain: write to your Congressional Representative.

I have recently contacted my representative and will continue to do so.

That is a good idea about contacting other members of Congress in charge of oversight of the TSA.

 

[KPeveler]

All that said, I just don't understand why a physical exam by a doctor or nurse isn't groping but the new pat downs are (especially since medical exams usually involve a lot less clothing and can even be invasive). Why are the two different?

Because the patdowns are not private. When they do the patdowns, they are usually in public. Yes, there are "private" rooms, but often the people waiting for a patdown can see into them. I have witnessed several people's "patdowns." I always try to look away.

They usually never give me the option of going elsewhere. They have even crowded another person in with me and patted down two of us at the same time.

When i do go to a doctor's office, there is usually not a committee watching me, and I have the right to have a member of my family with me. And I do, even since I was molested by a doctor during a shoulder exam more than a decade ago. I have to be completely on my own during the patdown...

 

[Magpie]

To the first part, I suppose it's likely because the front of one's hand is better able to feel for foreign objects since it's much more sensitive than the back of the hand.

To the second part, I understand. I feel differently. And as a victim of childhood molestation I can say I am able to distinguish the difference between the thorough pat-down and the horror I suffered for years as a kid. It actually sickens me a bit to see people try to equate the two. But hey, there is no issue on earth that will ever find universal acceptance.

Even my color blind husband occassionally argues with me that the sky isn't blue.

This is very much how I feel about it, too, and for the same reasons.

Having just flown this weekend; I did not notice any groping. My husband did get the full body pat down and he likened it to going to a Patriots game. I think there is a difference b/w groping and frisking but that is just me.

That's great to know! "Frisking" is very different from "groping" in my opinion, too.

I'm definitely going to be including my airport experiences in my very first Trip Report this December. Along with the results of my bed bug search.

For all of you folks who have an issue with the nature of the patdowns, don't waste time and energy grousing about it here. TSA is a government agency, and if you don't like a gov't agency's policies, then as Citizens, you have a way through channels to complain: write to your Congressional Representative.

Actually, not just yours; you should also write to members of the Senate oversight committee that has jurisdiction over TSA; the membership list is here: http://hsgac.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=AboutCommittee.Membership

FTR: I don't think that TSA is full of closeted child molesters (if we're talking criminals, thieves are much more likely), but hysteria will get you NOWHERE with these people. Calling or writing members of Congress and the Senate actually has some chance of getting you the policy change that you're asking for.

Excellent advice!

 

[eliza61]

For anyone who thinks this new "pat down" procedure is just fine and dandy,

Please take the time to watch this video!!!!


This is NOT acceptable!! And if you do your research, you will find that there are many, many, many complaints being filed since this more aggressive approach is being instituted..

I also believe that it illustrates my earlier point.. If I were to go to the airport to the the security line - "assuming" that I would be going through the scanner - was then randomly chosen (yes - they are randomly choosing) for a pat down instead and I replied, "Never mind.. I have chosen not fly.." - guess where I would be sitting for who knows how long? Not back in my home, that's for sure!

and that would be totally correct action. You wouldn't think it's a bit incriminating to announce you all of a sudden are not going to fly therefore wasting a ticket because you don't want to go through security? I'd be pissed if they let you on my plane after hearing you say that. talk about suspicious behaviour.

Please watch this video - research the complaints that are being made - see if you can find the videos of the actual groping that is going on now - and maybe you might reconsider your feelings on this matter..

And for the record, "grope" is the appropriate word for this - regardless of what it conjures up in ones mind.. I checked my dictionary to be certain that "groping" was the correct terminology to describe what I saw myself on the news report the other day - and what numerous people are voicing their complaints and concerns in regards to..

All I can say is that I flew out less then 7 days ago. I was patted down 2x once in Philly and once in Chicago and there was no grouping.

Dictonary terminology would be fine and dandy if that is what we used daily but you know it is not. you also know that grouping, assualt and other language brings to mind far worse then is being done.

So for the hundreds of people who fly out of Philly terminal f every day without being sexually assualted, I am happy to report that not all of the TSA are sexual predators. I call it as I see it, hysteria run amok.

So as long as my REAL life experience continues to support that I'll continue to happily fly.

 

[TheZue]

Because the patdowns are not private. When they do the patdowns, they are usually in public. Yes, there are "private" rooms, but often the people waiting for a patdown can see into them. I have witnessed several people's "patdowns." I always try to look away.

They usually never give me the option of going elsewhere. They have even crowded another person in with me and patted down two of us at the same time.

When i do go to a doctor's office, there is usually not a committee watching me, and I have the right to have a member of my family with me. And I do, even since I was molested by a doctor during a shoulder exam more than a decade ago. I have to be completely on my own during the patdown...

Not only that but when you get a medical exam they aren't accusing you of being a terrorist. This isn't an exam, it's a search by a government official. It's a search that very arguably is doing very little to make anyone safer. At some point a line is going to be crossed, for many we are already there. Realistically unless we all want to submit to full cavity searches and an MRI in the airport every time we fly you can't have 100% safety. Besides searching the cargo (which they don't fully do yet) would make far more sense than forcing little kids to let some guy feel around the boys because he might have a bomb.

 

[bettymae1121]

Because the patdowns are not private. When they do the patdowns, they are usually in public. Yes, there are "private" rooms, but often the people waiting for a patdown can see into them. I have witnessed several people's "patdowns." I always try to look away.

They usually never give me the option of going elsewhere. They have even crowded another person in with me and patted down two of us at the same time.

When i do go to a doctor's office, there is usually not a committee watching me, and I have the right to have a member of my family with me. And I do, even since I was molested by a doctor during a shoulder exam more than a decade ago. I have to be completely on my own during the patdown...

But isn't having it in public with lots of people around better? I would think the more public the pat down, the less chance of something truely inappropriate actaully happening. It protects the traveler from being violated and protects the TSA agent from unfounded accusations. The TSA person isn't going to deviate from proceedure with 100 witnesses standing around, and I'm not going to falsely accuse a TSA agent with 100 witnesses around.

Some people are uncomfortable being touched by strangers (or even people they're aquanted with) and I'm not trying to belittle genuine discomfort. I'm not saying everyone needs to like being patted down. You can't help what you feel. I don't like medical exams, even though I like my doctors and the nurses that work for them. But it's needed, so I do it. Just like security is needed and I'll get patted down when I choose to fly (or go through the new x-ray machines...or both).

 

[disney11fan]

there is no easy answer to protecting the flying public. you never no where people might hide things that could harm us. until they find a better way..either put up with it or don't fly.


how do you screen people,someone isen't going to like it..but what do you do.

 

[Mermaid02]

I'd rather be felt up than blown up.

 

[eliza61]

Serious question, not meaning to be smart.

If you really believe that pat downs are the equivalent to rape and sexual assualt. Why fly?

I have to fly a lot for business but I've never been assualted like people here say is going on (not saying it has not occured). It's not the most comfortable feeling but it certainly is not the worse thing I've had to endure (remember i'm a civil rights baby so my experience may be skewed) but I'm thinking any thing that I equate with rape, I would definitely avoid.

 

[maxiesmom]

All I can say is that I flew out less then 7 days ago. I was patted down 2x once in Philly and once in Chicago and there was no grouping.

Dictonary terminology would be fine and dandy if that is what we used daily but you know it is not. you also know that grouping, assualt and other language brings to mind far worse then is being done.

So for the hundreds of people who fly out of Philly terminal f every day without being sexually assualted, I am happy to report that not all of the TSA are sexual predators. I call it as I see it, hysteria run amok.

So as long as my REAL life experience continues to support that I'll continue to happily fly.

Wow, a voice of sanity in a sea of chaos.

Honestly, the only way to put this is to say most of you need to calm down and get a grip. The TSA is not full of perverts and child molestors just waiting for your child. While there are probably an unfortunate few that are not all above board, that can be said of any profession. Do you not let your child go to the doctor, because he or she may be a sicko? Do you not let you child play sports because the coach may have bad intentions? I'm sure both of those professions have people that have bad intentions too.

Look at the facts. Read posts by people like eliza61 who have flown, had the pat down, and can report honestly and without prejudice that there was no groping involved. Why it is so easy to believe that her experience is an anomoly, and that the TSAs are all just foaming at the mouth waiting to pat people down?

Put your pitchforks down people.

 

[No.17CherryTreeLane]

I'd rather be felt up than blown up.

Absolutely!

 

[CathrynRose]

Wow, a voice of sanity in a sea of chaos.

Honestly, the only way to put this is to say most of you need to calm down and get a grip. The TSA is not full of perverts and child molestors just waiting for your child. While there are probably an unfortunate few that are not all above board, that can be said of any profession. Do you not let your child go to the doctor, because he or she may be a sicko? Do you not let you child play sports because the coach may have bad intentions? I'm sure both of those professions have people that have bad intentions too.

Look at the facts. Read posts by people like eliza61 who have flown, had the pat down, and can report honestly and without prejudice that there was no groping involved. Why it is so easy to believe that her experience is an anomoly, and that the TSAs are all just foaming at the mouth waiting to pat people down?

Put your pitchforks down people.

#1 - This was *just* put into effect. The fancy pat down, correct? She may very well have been patted down without any 'groping', as she was patted before the fancy pat was initiated. However, ever if she was patted AFTER the 'enhanced' pat - many are reporting they felt it was extreme - including frequent fliers (i.e. Flight Attendants!)

#2 - It's not just a question of molesters and perverts. Many of us just aren't comfortable with it - or frankly (for me...) it pisses me off!!! I'm an American Citizen, flying within the country, with a ticket I paid for - and could possibly be treated like a common criminal! It's not *okay* with me. It makes me really flipping mad!!

#3 - Again, for the umpteenth time - this is an entry level position. It's not even comparable to a Doctor. Truly. I believe you or I could both be TSA agents, after going through their training. This isn't an elite bunch.

The two sides of this issue may never agree. the girl I just went to Vegas with October 23rd, even posted on her FB about how ridiculous it is, to 'feel violated', or to even bother 'opting out'. This is one of my best friends. We don't agree on it. We still had a good time.

We're not all going to agree - but my opinion is this: It irritates me. I'm an American being treated like a Terrorist until proven innocent, and I don't like it.

And a friendly reminder - The 4th Amendment:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

 

[Magpie]

And a friendly reminder - The 4th Amendment:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Actually you are still quite secure in your person, house, papers and effects. You always have the choice not to fly.

 

[eliza61]

This was a trip report that I did last friday on the transportation board. I wasn't sure how to cut an paste so I also included the link. once again it's only my experience.

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=2584182&page=21

Hey guys, greetings from cold Chicago. I'm here for the day on a business meeting so here is my pat down experience from this morning. I had a 7:55 am flight to chicago from philly to Ohare on usairways.

Disclosures: I had planned on asking for the pat down instead of the scanner so I wore a sports bra and a lycra short sleeve shirt. Due to scare stories of agents mugging people I purposely wore a top that was clingy and smooth and easy to see the outline of any thing underneath.

Disclosure #2. I have a twic card. for those of you not familar a twic card is a security clearance card issued by the government to transportation personnel and others. My work takes me to oil refineries and natural gas rigs so a twic card gets me into some places where security is restricted. If you have a problem with the feds knowing your business the twic card is not for you, you give up a lot of personal info and bioscans when you get one.

Disclosure #3. Last night in a pre-investigative interview. I called my good friend Melody who is a retired NYC cop and a friend of mine Marc who is a retired Philly cop and who works at the naval shipyard in Philadelphia as a contract security personnel. I asked them about working for the TSA at 17 bucks a hour. Marc simply laughed at me and hung up. Mel said she got paid more to do security at Yankee stadium during the playoffs last month. She said the only reason she would work for the TSA was perhaps to get the medical benefits but probably not even then since she is a retired cop she already gets a great pension and state benefits. I stand by my original comment.



I arrived at the airport around 6 am. I do not have luggage as I'm catching a late flight out of chicago tonight. I do have a 'big" book bag that I have my laptop, buches of magazines, a small toothbrush, Ipod, cell phone, a pair of sneaks and my wallet.

I go in my normal "business" flyers lane. very small flight today only seems to be 17 people so far.

Airport is not very busy at all, not sure if Thursday is considered a high flying day. my shoes are off and I have my cell phone and ipod in a clear plastic case that I found that's great for just this purpose. I don't drive ot the airport so no keys for me. I step up to the belt whip out my laptop from my bag, put every thing on the belt. I ask the tsa agent who is directing me to the full body thing can I opt for the pat down. here is probably my only complaint. TSA agent says yes and then screams at the top of his lungs "OPT OUT". Jeez dude, scream a little louder why dontcha' I think some on in Kansas didn't hear you LOL. now is that really necessary? give the guys some walkie talkies sheez. Agent politely ask me to move over a little so the next person can proceed. I grab my stuff and by the time I turn back around 2 female agents are there to escort me a ways off. The agent ask me to put my stuff on a table to side. I do so. she then instructs me to hold my arms out to the side. I do so. pat down begins. this thing was so fast I'm not sure how people have time to be groped? She went down the front side of me, I honestly could not tell you with what side of her hand. I'm not joking, girl friend was speedy gonzalez. went down both sides of my legs. I had already spread my legs out about shoulder width apart. told me to turn around and then did my back. the only agent simply stood there.
total time 90 secs tops.

 

[CathrynRose]

Actually you are still quite secure in your person, house, papers and effects. You always have the choice not to fly.

Touche'

For me.... and this is just me.... that's an irritating rebuttal. But it is!!!

And tell me - why hasn't the TSA began screenings at Train Stations (Heck, here in Chicago - all lines from the suburbs land in Union Station, which is a block from The Sears....ooops! The WILLIS Tower, and in the middle of Downtown Chicago! http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&e...esult&ct=image&resnum=2&sqi=2&ved=0CCIQnwIwAQ) A juicy bomb could take out a butt load during 'rush hour'.

Trains, Busses... yet, they continue to make flying more and more of a hassle. Now including a quickie feel.

No, I don't have to fly - but I don't feel I should be subjected to being treated as a Terrorist, if I do.

 

[RitaE]

You might rather be felt up - but all in all the whole thing is just a show.

Terrorism really isn't deterred by harassing 72 year old Grandmas from Tulsa flying out to Newark to see the grandkids. The only thing the whole dog and pony TSA show does is put up an appearance to the general public that our government is doing something.

And claiming that anybody expressing an opinion of distaste towards it is acting hysterically is in itself a hyperbole. People are very capable of disliking a practice without teetering into unreasonable hysteria.

This whole conversation kind of reminds me of the viewpoint that anybody who objects to giving the FBI unrestricted authority to tap into our phone calls and invade our private homes on a whim must have something to hide.

 

[eliza61]

You might rather be felt up - but all in all the whole thing is just a show.

Terrorism really isn't deterred by harassing 72 year old Grandmas from Tulsa flying out to Newark to see the grandkids. The only thing the whole dog and pony TSA show does is put up an appearance to the general public that our government is doing something.

And claiming that anybody expressing an opinion of distaste towards it is acting hysterically is in itself a hyperbole. People are very capable of disliking a practice without teetering into unreasonable hysteria.

This whole conversation kind of reminds me of the viewpoint that anybody who objects to giving the FBI unrestricted authority to tap into our phone calls and invade our private homes on a whim must have something to hide.

disliking a practice= no problem
calling that practice rape and physical assualt= intention to inflame and cause mass panic.
feeling agents are not qualified to do the job= perfectly fine
calling agents child molestors and perverts= intention to inflame and cause mass panic
calling the entire thing a show= perfectly ok
saying that tsa agents are harrassing grandmothers on their way to see their grandkids. oh yeah, that's really not intended to be any thing but objective.

and let me tell you my viewpoint, just like last summer when that wonderful women from PA stole all that money and said 2 black men kidnapped her and her daughter only to be found in the Grand floridian, my son was the one pulled over 2X because of the MASS hysteria that caused. simply because they are Black and we can afford to have them drive a lexus. Yeah, I have a problem with incidious and inflammatory speech.

 

[KPeveler]

the only agent simply stood there.
total time 90 secs tops.

I want your person - I can stand for 90 seconds, but because I use a powerchair, I do not have the option of using the scanners - TSA will not move my chair.

Last time I almost fell over because they took so long. A man was holding me up, I had a cane in the other hand, and a woman was using the wand, then would pat the area once lightly, then again firmly. My guess is it took at least 3+ minutes.

this was done in full view of everyone in a tiny glass box with two other people waiting for pat downs in the middle of the screening area.

Next time I am going to have to stay seated, so they will be slipping their hands under me and behind me, with my full body weight on top of them, so no light pat down for me.

I know flying is a choice, and I do my best to avoid it but having a rare medical condition means a lot of flying around for doctors...

 

[Magpie]

(snipped for space)
Airport is not very busy at all, not sure if Thursday is considered a high flying day. my shoes are off and I have my cell phone and ipod in a clear plastic case that I found that's great for just this purpose. I don't drive ot the airport so no keys for me. I step up to the belt whip out my laptop from my bag, put every thing on the belt. I ask the tsa agent who is directing me to the full body thing can I opt for the pat down. here is probably my only complaint. TSA agent says yes and then screams at the top of his lungs "OPT OUT". Jeez dude, scream a little louder why dontcha' I think some on in Kansas didn't hear you LOL. now is that really necessary? give the guys some walkie talkies sheez. Agent politely ask me to move over a little so the next person can proceed. I grab my stuff and by the time I turn back around 2 female agents are there to escort me a ways off. The agent ask me to put my stuff on a table to side. I do so. she then instructs me to hold my arms out to the side. I do so. pat down begins. this thing was so fast I'm not sure how people have time to be groped? She went down the front side of me, I honestly could not tell you with what side of her hand. I'm not joking, girl friend was speedy gonzalez. went down both sides of my legs. I had already spread my legs out about shoulder width apart. told me to turn around and then did my back. the only agent simply stood there.
total time 90 secs tops.

Thank you! It's really great to read a personal "been there, done that" account.

at the "OPT OUT".

Touche'

For me.... and this is just me.... that's an irritating rebuttal. But it is!!!

And tell me - why hasn't the TSA began screenings at Train Stations (Heck, here in Chicago - all lines from the suburbs land in Union Station, which is a block from The Sears....ooops! The WILLIS Tower, and in the middle of Downtown Chicago! http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&e...esult&ct=image&resnum=2&sqi=2&ved=0CCIQnwIwAQ) A juicy bomb could take out a butt load during 'rush hour'.

Trains, Busses... yet, they continue to make flying more and more of a hassle. Now including a quickie feel.

No, I don't have to fly - but I don't feel I should be subjected to being treated as a Terrorist, if I do.

I totally get how you feel. And I do agree that it's probably a dog-and-pony show. As I said earlier, everyone has different boundaries. And you definitely have a right to your feelings on the issue! And a right to write a letter of protest to your gov't about it.

I mainly just object to the whole "TSA agents are child-molesting thugs" thing.

 

[Mermaid02]

You might rather be felt up - but all in all the whole thing is just a show.

Terrorism really isn't deterred by harassing 72 year old Grandmas from Tulsa flying out to Newark to see the grandkids. The only thing the whole dog and pony TSA show does is put up an appearance to the general public that our government is doing something.

And claiming that anybody expressing an opinion of distaste towards it is acting hysterically is in itself a hyperbole. People are very capable of disliking a practice without teetering into unreasonable hysteria.

This whole conversation kind of reminds me of the viewpoint that anybody who objects to giving the FBI unrestricted authority to tap into our phone calls and invade our private homes on a whim must have something to hide.

Ok- what's your idea? Profiling? That's fine with me, but many folks find it VERY objectionable. Seriously, what do YOU think the government should do to make sure 09/11 doesn't happen again?