TSA mess and the police

[RitaE]

There is absolutely no way our government can make sure 9/11 doesn't happen again without turning our Country into a mixture of Pre-Berlin Wall Moscow and the Nazi regime. Personally I find that much scarier than the thought of an airplane bomb.

What can be done to deter Terrorism? Properly fund anti-terrorism agencies and train their employees. Develop intelligence and monitor groups that are known terrorists. Which by the way, for all their faults is actually something our country and others do quite well. THAT is where the war on terrorism is being fought, not by the $12 an hour security guard at the Lubbock airport who has been alerted that the threat color of the day is Orange.

Quit catering to countries and regions that harbor known terrorist cells because we like cheap oil.

And why do people oppose Profiling? Because it is a violation of human rights - just like unreasonable searches without cause by the US Government.

 

[C.Ann]

Dictonary terminology would be fine and dandy if that is what we used daily but you know it is not. you also know that grouping, assualt and other language brings to mind far worse then is being done.

So for the hundreds of people who fly out of Philly terminal f every day without being sexually assualted, I am happy to report that not all of the TSA are sexual predators. I call it as I see it, hysteria run amok.

So as long as my REAL life experience continues to support that I'll continue to happily fly.

Words are words.. I've yet to see any sources using a different word to describe it.. Someone here used the word "fondling".. Based on the definition, that would not fit the scenario that is being discussed..

No where in any of my posts did I suggest that TSA agents were child molestors or that anyone was being sexually molested.. The TSA agents are simply doing their jobs - something I also agreed with early on in this thread..
Yes - I did include the "Cavity Search" poster in my last post - so that people might take a few moments to think about what "could" happen if terrorists resort to desperate measures - considering their willingness to scarifice their own lives in order to kill others.. I would really appreciate it if you didn't put words in my mouth - or respond in such a manner that it appears I have accused TSA's of something that I haven't.. Thanks!

My problem lies with what they are being asked to do; complaints that have already been filed; people being randomly pulled out of line for intrusive pat downs (as opposed to just being allowed to go through the scanner); and what the next step will be if they decide that even this is not enough..

However, since I have no intentions of standing in a security line "hoping" they don't randomly yank me out for a pat down, it's all good - at least for me.. Since I have no desire to travel anywhere outside of this country, I still have the freedom to choose other forms of transportation that do not include something that I see as unnecessary (at best) and will ultimately prove itself useless in terms of passenger safety..

I will show this thread to others in my family though (who may or may not be flying in the future) so they can mull it over and decide for themselves if they feel the need to have their voices heard via the appropriate channels..

Now I'm off again to see if there are some other threads going on that are a little more pleasant than this one.. Have a great evening!

 

[C.Ann]

You might rather be felt up - but all in all the whole thing is just a show.

Terrorism really isn't deterred by harassing 72 year old Grandmas from Tulsa flying out to Newark to see the grandkids. The only thing the whole dog and pony TSA show does is put up an appearance to the general public that our government is doing something.

And claiming that anybody expressing an opinion of distaste towards it is acting hysterically is in itself a hyperbole. People are very capable of disliking a practice without teetering into unreasonable hysteria.

This whole conversation kind of reminds me of the viewpoint that anybody who objects to giving the FBI unrestricted authority to tap into our phone calls and invade our private homes on a whim must have something to hide.

Extremely well said!!! You must have been posting while I was composing my own post just a few moments ago..

Now I'm off again! Have a nice evening...

 

[LuvOrlando]

I think some people are seriously missing the boat on the whole issue when it comes to how this new protocol relates to kids. I don't think anyone here is of the opinion that the TSA is loaded with child abusers just waiting to get their hands on kids. I agree that is a ridiculous notion, like anywhere else there are good and bad. I DO think that there are a number of problems with the current procedures especially as they would apply to children so that's REALLY the point. Particularly I have an issue with ANY adult putting their hands on a child's private parts not because I am concerned with the motives of the adult. I am concerned with the effect this might have on a kid, the trauma, the fright. I have a hard time believing that there are many child development experts who would say this isn't a cause for concern.

 

[eliza61]

There is absolutely no way our government can make sure 9/11 doesn't happen again without turning our Country into a mixture of Pre-Berlin Wall Moscow and the Nazi regime. Personally I find that much scarier than the thought of an airplane bomb.

What can be done to deter Terrorism? Properly fund anti-terrorism agencies and train their employees. Develop intelligence and monitor groups that are known terrorists. Which by the way, for all their faults is actually something our country and others do quite well. THAT is where the war on terrorism is being fought, not by the $12 an hour security guard at the Lubbock airport who has been alerted that the threat color of the day is Orange.

Quit catering to countries and regions that harbor known terrorist cells because we like cheap oil.

And why do people oppose Profiling? Because it is a violation of human rights - just like unreasonable searches without cause by the US Government.

LOL good luck with that Rita, you have waaay more faith in John q public because personally I'm a firm believer we will put up with any thing as long as we get cheap goods and cheap oil. We have a walmart mentality.

My girlfriend is a retired NYC cop and I asked her why she didn't get a job with the TSA. she said pay. her exact words "I make more working security at Yankee stadium than the TSA".

So do we really think we're going to get great agents at 16/hour (that's around 32K a year, not liveable wages on the east coast)

I will tell you why I oppose profiling and remember I'm a minority.

you're worried about tsa agents. I worry every single day about some redneck police officer with a badge who thinks just because a black man drives a lexus he must be a drug dealer.

You worry about a nazi state. sorry Rita, I lived it. My father was a silver star medal winner in Korea and in order for us to visit my grandmother in Tenns. we had to get off the train in Washington DC and go to the "colored car" because across the mason dixon line we were not allowed to sit where we wanted even though we brought full price tickets.

I worry about idiots like the judge down south who refused to marry couples simply because one of the pair was black. and he was an elected offical so do you really think the rest of his buddies in the town didn't feel the same way.

So I have first had accounts of profiling. it is slippery slope to full blown 1960

 

[Mermaid02]

There is absolutely no way our government can make sure 9/11 doesn't happen again without turning our Country into a mixture of Pre-Berlin Wall Moscow and the Nazi regime. Personally I find that much scarier than the thought of an airplane bomb.

What can be done to deter Terrorism? Properly fund anti-terrorism agencies and train their employees. Develop intelligence and monitor groups that are known terrorists. Which by the way, for all their faults is actually something our country and others do quite well. THAT is where the war on terrorism is being fought, not by the $12 an hour security guard at the Lubbock airport who has been alerted that the threat color of the day is Orange.

Quit catering to countries and regions that harbor known terrorist cells because we like cheap oil.

And why do people oppose Profiling? Because it is a violation of human rights - just like unreasonable searches without cause by the US Government.

Seems to me these things have been and are being done- and we still had some guy with a bomb in his fruit of the looms.

 

[rie'smom]

To the first part, I suppose it's likely because the front of one's hand is better able to feel for foreign objects since it's much more sensitive than the back of the hand.

To the second part, I understand. I feel differently. And as a victim of childhood molestation I can say I am able to distinguish the difference between the thorough pat-down and the horror I suffered for years as a kid. It actually sickens me a bit to see people try to equate the two. But hey, there is no issue on earth that will ever find universal acceptance.

Even my color blind husband occassionally argues with me that the sky isn't blue.

I'm a survivor and I can tell you that this totally freaks me out. If I'm subject to a pat down, I'm likely to either have a panic attack or faint. While I know in my mind that it isn't the same, the PTSD says otherwise.

No. When you submit to a patdown, you are not being assaulted.

You might not have a choice if you want to fly. Seems more like extortion instead of submission.

Well, I can understand how you feel so strongly about it too. I just think at that point you either decide the full body scans are okay or you decide not to fly.
Either way, I feel it IS wrong to those who have truly suffered abuse to call this the same thing.

As a survivor I can promise you that I have absolutely no problem equating them because both are done under threat.

Mandatory endoscopy is next. You must take a power laxative 12 hours before every flight and be restricted to a clear liquid diet until you pass through the TSA checkpoint.

Mandatory endoscopy or a gynecological or proctological exam because maybe the scanner can't quite see everything.

What will people accept next? Will those of Muslim descent have to wear the Crescent, Jews have to wear the Star of David, Christians the Cross, etc? There has to be an end to the madness. What bothers me more than the possible pat down (and that scares the bejesus out of me) is the complacency shown by so many people.

 

[CathrynRose]

IWhat bothers me more than the possible pat down (and that scares the bejesus out of me) is the complacency shown by so many people.

 

[Magpie]

I think some people are seriously missing the boat on the whole issue when it comes to how this new protocol relates to kids. I don't think anyone here is of the opinion that the TSA is loaded with child abusers just waiting to get their hands on kids. I agree that is a ridiculous notion, like anywhere else there are good and bad. I DO think that there are a number of problems with the current procedures especially as they would apply to children so that's REALLY the point. Particularly I have an issue with ANY adult putting their hands on a child's private parts not because I am concerned with the motives of the adult. I am concerned with the effect this might have on a kid, the trauma, the fright. I have a hard time believing that there are many child development experts who would say this isn't a cause for concern.

I suspect, on the whole, children would be considerably less traumatized than adults. A quick hand running once up the inside of a completely clothed thigh, and a chest pat isn't likely to mean "sex" to a child.

Otherwise all children would be walking around today suffering trauma and fright from having been handled intimately by parents, doctors and nurses, in the ordinary process of being bathed, dressed and examined.

No, TSA agents are obviously not parents, doctors, or nurses, but from a child's perspective they're no more familiar or strange than a doctor or nurse. All that matters to a child is that their parent is right there with them, keeping them safe. And on the plus side, it's a heck of a lot less intimate than a doctor's exam. At least in a patdown, everyone's clothes stay on!

Adults have a much harder time, because personal touch is far more fraught and loaded with meaning for us, than it is for children.

I think there are legitimate areas of concern around this. Personal liberties are a big one. Effectiveness of the patdown is another (there are after all plenty of places to hide things that a patdown can't catch - drug mules know this!). But I don't see this as a "Think of the children!" moment at all.

 

[rie'smom]

I suspect, on the whole, children would be considerably less traumatized than adults. A quick hand running once up the inside of a completely clothed thigh, and a chest pat isn't likely to mean "sex" to a child.

Otherwise all children would be walking around today suffering trauma and fright from having been handled intimately by parents, doctors and nurses, in the ordinary process of being bathed, dressed and examined.

No, TSA agents are obviously not parents, doctors, or nurses, but from a child's perspective they're no more familiar or strange than a doctor or nurse. All that matters to a child is that their parent is right there with them, keeping them safe. And on the plus side, it's a heck of a lot less intimate than a doctor's exam. At least in a patdown, everyone's clothes stay on!

Adults have a much harder time, because personal touch is far more fraught and loaded with meaning for us, than it is for children.

I think there are legitimate areas of concern around this. Personal liberties are a big one. Effectiveness of the patdown is another (there are after all plenty of places to hide things that a patdown can't catch - drug mules know this!). But I don't see this as a "Think of the children!" moment at all.

I hardly think you can compare a parent, doctors, or nurse to the pat down police. Children will be familiar of course with their parents, and with their doctor and his/her nurse. The TSA agent will more than likely be a stranger.

 

[Magpie]

I hardly think you can compare a parent, doctors, or nurse to the pat down police. Children will be familiar of course with their parents, and with their doctor and his/her nurse. The TSA agent will more than likely be a stranger.

That's why I said they're NOT the same.

And I disagree that a child will be familiar with a doctor or nurse. Even a family doctor, while familiar to the parent, is likely to be a stranger to a child who sees him perhaps once a year. And there are plenty of other times when the doctor is a complete stranger, even to us. We hand our kids over to strange doctors in the emergency room all the time, and in much scarier, more traumatizing circumstances than a lineup at the airport on the way to Disney World.

 

[rie'smom]

That's why I said they're NOT the same.

And I disagree that a child will be familiar with a doctor or nurse. Even a family doctor, while familiar to the parent, is likely to be a stranger to a child who sees him perhaps once a year. And there are plenty of other times when the doctor is a complete stranger, even to us. We hand our kids over to strange doctors in the emergency room all the time, and in much scarier, more traumatizing circumstances than a lineup at the airport on the way to Disney World.

My children were very familiar with their pediatrician and his nurses. They had well baby and well child checkups growing up besides visits when they were sick.
You cannot reasonably compare an ER visit with the TSA.

 

[MWAZU39]

#2 - It's not just a question of molesters and perverts. Many of us just aren't comfortable with it - or frankly (for me...) it pisses me off!!! I'm an American Citizen, flying within the country, with a ticket I paid for - and could possibly be treated like a common criminal! It's not *okay* with me. It makes me really flipping mad!!

We're not all going to agree - but my opinion is this: It irritates me. I'm an American being treated like a Terrorist until proven innocent, and I don't like it.

And a friendly reminder - The 4th Amendment:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Is it unreasonable to think that an American might want to inflict damage against America? People will go to great lengths to carry out their missions and I welcome the increased security to keep people safe. Did anybody see the article of the young Asian man that boarded an International flight disguised as an elderly, Caucasian male, only to re-emerge as a young Asian? http://articles.cnn.com/2010-11-04/...g-regional-communications-officer?_s=PM:WORLD What if this was the husband of the grandma that was "wrongfully" searched in Portland? Could this have been a dry run for a future mission? Nobody is above the law, and nobody should be given a free pass because of their age, citizenship or ...

As many others have said, if you don't like the new process, don't fly!

 

[Magpie]

My children were very familiar with their pediatrician and his nurses. They had well baby and well child checkups growing up besides visits when they were sick.
You cannot reasonably compare an ER visit with the TSA.

All I am saying is that in the grand scheme of things, a pat down is probably more traumatizing to an adult than a child.

Children get touched over and under their clothes many times in the normal course of living, for many reasons. When my kids were in gymnastics, the coaches would routinely lift them up by putting their hands under their little butts. Or they would grab their legs to move them into the right position - sometimes quite high up the leg. No one thought anything of it.

If a child is properly warned (I discussed it with my daughter this evening), and a parent is present, it doesn't have to be a big deal. And if it IS a big deal to the parent, then flying is probably a bad idea for that family.

 

[TheZue]

Is it unreasonable to think that an American might want to inflict damage against America? People will go to great lengths to carry out their missions and I welcome the increased security to keep people safe. Did anybody see the article of the young Asian man that boarded an International flight disguised as an elderly, Caucasian male, only to re-emerge as a young Asian? http://articles.cnn.com/2010-11-04/...g-regional-communications-officer?_s=PM:WORLD What if this was the husband of the grandma that was "wrongfully" searched in Portland? Could this have been a dry run for a future mission? Nobody is above the law, and nobody should be given a free pass because of their age, citizenship or ...

As many others have said, if you don't like the new process, don't fly!

Do you really think watching out for the last attack is really making ANYONE safe? They are already past the underwear plan, and I'm guessing they are probably looking at freight alone right now, we know they are looking at it a bit after the whole printer ink plot. You know that if a palette is wrapped in plastic it doesn't get searched at all? The thought is the sender knows the contents so it'll be safe. And yes some freight ends up on commercial flights. So while they are searching passengers as much as they can without having to buy them a drink they are ignoring a MASSIVE loop hole. And besides, until they feel obligated to buy us a drink there are PLENTY of places to hide these things. Not to mention having people backed up in a massive line up at an airport is great target in itself. You can't make a free society 100% safe, trample our rights at the airports and they'll just move on to an easier target.

 

[Magpie]

Do you really think watching out for the last attack is really making ANYONE safe? They are already past the underwear plan, and I'm guessing they are probably looking at freight alone right now, we know they are looking at it a bit after the whole printer ink plot. You know that if a palette is wrapped in plastic it doesn't get searched at all? The thought is the sender knows the contents so it'll be safe. And yes some freight ends up on commercial flights. So while they are searching passengers as much as they can without having to buy them a drink they are ignoring a MASSIVE loop hole. And besides, until they feel obligated to buy us a drink there are PLENTY of places to hide these things. Not to mention having people backed up in a massive line up at an airport is great target in itself. You can't make a free society 100% safe, trample our rights at the airports and they'll just move on to an easier target.

I love this line!

 

[OceanAnnie]

Do you really think watching out for the last attack is really making ANYONE safe? They are already past the underwear plan, and I'm guessing they are probably looking at freight alone right now, we know they are looking at it a bit after the whole printer ink plot. You know that if a palette is wrapped in plastic it doesn't get searched at all? The thought is the sender knows the contents so it'll be safe. And yes some freight ends up on commercial flights. So while they are searching passengers as much as they can without having to buy them a drink they are ignoring a MASSIVE loop hole. And besides, until they feel obligated to buy us a drink there are PLENTY of places to hide these things. Not to mention having people backed up in a massive line up at an airport is great target in itself. You can't make a free society 100% safe, trample our rights at the airports and they'll just move on to an easier target.

You make a lot of valid points.

I read not too long ago that was some chatter about bomb implants, chest implants.

I don't know what the answer is, but it seems like a whole lot of money wasted screening people that aren't posing a threat.

 

[chicagodisneyfan]

What was wrong with how things were being done 1 year to 6 months ago?

How can it be ok to tell me, a mother of an 11 year old pre-teen girl who is developed like a 16 year old that she has to either submit to egg damaging x-rays OR be physically molested by an adult? NOT going to happen.... so not going to happen.... not on my watch.

Drama! I mean really no one wants to molest your daughter. People just want to do there jobs and move on. You really have a problem with a female agent touching your daughter? Heck I just did this last week and it was NOTHING. There is more touching at my tailor!

 

[eliza61]

I'm a survivor and I can tell you that this totally freaks me out. If I'm subject to a pat down, I'm likely to either have a panic attack or faint. While I know in my mind that it isn't the same, the PTSD says otherwise.



You might not have a choice if you want to fly. Seems more like extortion instead of submission.



Mandatory endoscopy or a gynecological or proctological exam because maybe the scanner can't quite see everything.

What will people accept next? Will those of Muslim descent have to wear the Crescent, Jews have to wear the Star of David, Christians the Cross, etc? There has to be an end to the madness. What bothers me more than the possible pat down (and that scares the bejesus out of me) is the complacency shown by so many people.

I'm not complacent. I've look at the issue, I've experienced both the pat down and the scans, I've read both general blogs and TSA information. I've made a decision based on this information and my lifestyle.

I feel happy in my decision and see it neither as extortion or some great death to my civil liberties.

When I fly to Toledo next week on business I will again weigh my options and choices (imagine that, I still have a few choices, must not be a nazi state yet) and make another decision.

When I fly out to Vegas this Christmas I will review again.

When I fly to Tel Aviv next spring I will not review my choices because if you think this is invasive don't ever think of visiting Israel. LOL. but I will still go.

Ditto for my trip to Paris in May and my trip to WDW in August. All these flights I will have the choice of going or not going, submit to the required regulations of the various countries and federal regulations or not.

No one will extort money from me.

good night all.

 

[chicagodisneyfan]

Seems to me if you are willing to blow yourself up you'd be willing to swallow some explosives and retrieve them later. We avoid flying as much as possible anyways, but this seals it for us. There is no way I am letting my boys get groped and I'd rather not have their naked pictures stored on some computer somewhere either.

ok - even IF the naked pictures are stored - why would you care?

there is nothing on the scan that would make your son identifiable