TSA mess and the police

[OceanAnnie]

A poll would be interesting on this thread.

 

[emh1129]

This is a really great post. Thank you for making it. I think parents with autistic children will be very, very nervous and upset about these changes and the potential they have to wreck trips. First, you have to try to explain to your autistic child the varying machines, the children have to be VERY STILL, and if they are not, they have to try and subject themselves to what many autistic children have a very difficult time with, intrusive touch. And touching places other adults would be in JAIL for in any other circumstance.

The other thing that's just revolting is there's definitely a sense that TSA is trying to "punish" people who opt out of the machines. Again, I had no problem with the machine I went through, other than it took a really long time, and these machines will make flying irrelevant. The security lines will be hours long if you make each individual go through it; you might as well drive.

But now that I read other experts talk about the fact that the disagree with the government about the backscatter machines, and that subjecting children and pregnant women to these machines could be a real problem, as well as people like FAs and pilots, who have to go through them all the time, it gives me greater pause about the safety of these machines.

Thanks for your comments on my post.
You make a good point about staying still while being scanned. It is physically impossible for my son to stay *very still* (or even somewhat still, actually).. it's just not a reasonable expectation for him. No matter how hard he tries (and bless his little heart, he tries so hard) he can't.

I am very worried about what might be in store for us with this. As much as I try to prep him, it comes down to his visceral reaction to being touched. If it was something he could control, he would. But he's not comfortable being touched by people he doesn't know. So I really can see this playing out, scene by scene.
My son is a stickler for manners, so I could see him very nicely asking the TSA agent to stop touching him, but if that request isn't met, or if there is movement towards him as he backs up to tries to get away, that's when the problem could start.. he really would bolt, or scream, or shove.. because he would feel threatened. So then what? I bet there would be a show of force and that just makes me so sad to think about.

Apparently once you enter the screening area, you may not leave until the screening is complete (who cares if your ASD child has a complete meltdown-- it's about national security, people! Spread 'em! )... Doing so reportedly carries a $10,000 fine and civil suit.
This just has the recipe to be disastrous for autistic children and their families. I don't want to put my son through something traumatic, especially for a vacation-- something that's supposed to be fun and a time when we can make great family memories. And even if all went smooth on the way down, you know what? I would be worried all week long.. even at Disney World.. about what could happen on the flight home.

I do see now that there is even a Facebook group, calling for "Mandatory autism awareness classes for TSA and other airport staff."

With all of these recent changes, it seems like it would be better for our family to drive now. I know it's not the airlines' fault, but I think people who now feel uncomfortable with these 'safety' screenings should be able to turn their tickets in for refunds, no penalties. I feel like the rules of the game were changed after I'd already spent close to $1,000 and that's frustrating.

$1,000 might not sound like a lot of money to some people, but to us- it is - it's a LOT of money to us. I graduate from nursing school next month, so I won't take the NCLEX & work as a RN until January 2011. The 5 of us have been on one income for a long time and we've been saving for this trip for so long! This trip is our Christmas gift to each other and really for us to celebrate Mommy being done with nursing school. My children have been so amazing.. they've chipped in and helped out a lot at home because they knew I've been struggling to balance it all.. and they have learned to share my lap with stacks of text books.
So I'm sad at the prospect of having to tell them the trip is now off... especially as I hear ds (8, with autism) singing "Yo Ho, Yo Ho, a pirate's life for me" in his bedroom right now

I don't mean to be dramatic (although I'm sure it comes across that way), but before you say "Oh, who cares, pat me down.. I don't care, so why should anyone else care?" please think about others who may have legitimate concerns about these new methods. For some people, it's either fly or don't travel at all. Should all families with autism be forced to just stay home? Disney is a magical place for these children.

It reminds me of Pastor Niemoller's saying that ends with "Then they came for me.. and by that time no one was left to speak up."

 

[CPT Tripss]

So, if one doesn't like grope, what word or brief phrase should be used to describe another person using their hands to "explore" your crotch or the part of a woman often covered by a bra? Keep in mind that we are talking about the palm and fingers of the hand being used to contact these areas with at least three passes.

"Pat down" or "frisk" doesn't quite cut it.

 

[C.Ann]

My son is a stickler for manners, so I could see him very nicely asking the TSA agent to stop touching him, but if that request isn't met, or if there is movement towards him as he backs up to tries to get away, that's when the problem could start.. he really would bolt, or scream, or shove.. because he would feel threatened. So then what? I bet there would be a show of force and that just makes me so sad to think about.

Apparently once you enter the screening area, you may not leave until the screening is complete (who cares if your ASD child has a complete meltdown-- it's about national security, people! Spread 'em! )... Doing so reportedly carries a $10,000 fine and civil suit.

This just has the recipe to be disastrous for autistic children and their families. I don't want to put my son through something traumatic, especially for a vacation-- something that's supposed to be fun and a time when we can make great family memories. And even if all went smooth on the way down, you know what? I would be worried all week long.. even at Disney World.. about what could happen on the flight home.

I know it's not the airlines' fault, but I think people who now feel uncomfortable with these 'safety' screenings should be able to turn their tickets in for refunds, no penalties. I feel like the rules of the game were changed after I'd already spent close to $1,000 and that's frustrating.

This trip is our Christmas gift to each other and really for us to celebrate Mommy being done with nursing school. My children have been so amazing.. they've chipped in and helped out a lot at home because they knew I've been struggling to balance it all.. and they have learned to share my lap with stacks of text books.

I don't mean to be dramatic (although I'm sure it comes across that way), but before you say "Oh, who cares, pat me down.. I don't care, so why should anyone else care?" please think about others who may have legitimate concerns about these new methods. For some people, it's either fly or don't travel at all. Should all families with autism be forced to just stay home? Disney is a magical place for these children.

(Bolding in above post mine..)

I'm so sorry to hear this.. I hope that somehow you will be able to make this trip.. If the consumers (and pilots and flight attendants) make enough noise, maybe something will change before your departure date..

Hugs to all of you.. And good luck with your new nursing degree!

 

[LuvOrlando]

There is an avalanche of valid reasons why people don't want to be touched. The fact that we are so diverse is the reason for the laws we have in place and, specifically, the reason why we have the Constitution and the Supreme Court to defend it. Think about it, our founding fathers were so concerned with the likelihood that our Constitution would be threatened that they erected and ENTIRE branch of Government whose sole job is to defend it against attack. The magnitude of the dynamic should give anyone pause.

I get that people are frightened of terrorism, I am too. I grew up in the shadows of the WTC and I personally knew a few people who died. I grew up looking at those buildings in my hometown and the devastation it caused there breaks my heart so I take the whole fight very seriously. But fear is driving the bus right now. Those of you who are finding fault with me because you charge my worries are rooted in fear PLEASE tell me what exactly is it that is driving the charge to make our airports safer if it isn't fear?

How can anyone argue with a straight face that the fear of terrorists is more valid than the fear of losing personal freedoms and how on earth can any reasonable person not see that fear is on both sides of the issue, the only difference is we are afraid of different things? That doesn't make one side or the other more right, or more justified... it actually makes us all the same.

In my opinion we could all do with a little more respect and a little less hostility

 

[C.Ann]

Not sure exactly when this took place, but this 71 yr. old gentleman had to take his pants off..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-jdDE6bFow&feature=related

 

[rie'smom]

From linzbear:
http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=2596695


Senate TSA Oversight Committee Weds
Saw this on flyertalk, and thought many here would be interested:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/15135060-post1.html
Please let me know if I should be just posting the info, or if the above link is ok.

Senate TSA Oversight Committee on Wednesday

Please check the list to see if your senator is on the list and give them a call on Mon with a short blurb (something easily remembered/typed) if there is something you would like to see brought up in this Committee.

I'll be calling and saying something like "Hi, I'm calling concerning the TSA Oversight Committee on Wednesday Nov 17th. I would like to express my discontent with the current way that TSA has been conducting searches in that children and sexual assault victims are required to be subjected to either an imaging process where an officer can see their genitals on screen, or a front of the hands pat down on their genitals for what I believe to be an invasive and inadequate security screening. I also feel that this is a breach of our 4th Amendment rights. Thanks."

(My problems with TSA security run deeper than this, but it is important to be quick and memorable, as that's about how much time they have with the Senator)

List of senators:
The committee chair is Sen Byron L. Dorgon (D-ND) phone (202) 224-2551. The ranking member is Sen Jim DeMint (R-SC) phone (202) 224-6121.

D-AK Mark Begich (202) 224-3004
D-AR Mark Pryor (202) 224-2353
D-CA Barbara Boxer (202) 224-3553
D-FL Bill Nelson 202-224-5274
D-HI Daniel K. Inouye (202) 224.3934
D-MA John F. Kerry [(202) 224-2742
D-MN Amy Klobuchar 202-224-3244
D-MO Claire McCaskill 202-224-6154
D-NJ Frank R. Lautenberg (973) 639-8700, (888) 398-1642
D-VA Mark Warner 202-224-2023
D-WA Maria Cantwell 202-224-3441

R-FL George S. LeMieux (202) 224-3041
R-GA Johnny Isakson (202) 224-3643
R-KS Sam Brownback (202) 224-6521
R-LA David Vitter (202) 224-4623
R-ME Olympia J. Snowe (202) 224-5344, (800) 432-1599
R-MS Roger F. Wicker 202-224-6253
R-NE Mike Johanns (202) 224-4224
R-NV John Ensign (202) 224-6244
R-SD John Thune (202) 224-2321, 1-866-850-3855

The ex-officio members are:

D-WV Jay Rockefeller (202) 224-6472
R-TX Kay Bailey Hutchison 202-224-5922

CALL YOUR SENATOR OR THE CHAIR OR RANKING MEMBER AND LET YOUR VOICE BE HEARD!!!!!

 

[Magpie]

Not sure exactly when this took place, but this 71 yr. old gentleman had to take his pants off..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-jdDE6bFow&feature=related

That video was posted in July of 2008, so it's not part of the current changes to policy.

 

[C.Ann]

That video was posted in July of 2008, so it's not part of the current changes to policy.

Thanks..

Regardless, why was he required to take his pants off? Sounds like he has flown before without incident and this was one of those unfortunate cases where a TSA agent let their authority go to their head..

I would hate to see TSA agents let their authority go to their heads with this new pat-down situation - and I think we all know that eventually "some" will.. Lots of videos of TSA agents out there all over the country who are - well - for lack of a better world - acting like bullies..

 

[Magpie]

Thanks..

Regardless, why was he required to take his pants off? Sounds like he has flown before without incident and this was one of those unfortunate cases where a TSA agent let their authority go to their head..

I would hate to see TSA agents let their authority go to their heads with this new pat-down situation - and I think we all know that eventually "some" will.. Lots of videos of TSA agents out there all over the country who are - well - for lack of a better world - acting like bullies..

Any time people are put in authority over other people, someone's power is going to go to their heads.

Cops abuse their power. Security guards abuse it. Doctors. Teachers. Even some parents abuse the power they have over their own kids!

I'm hoping the gentleman in question got some satisfaction from the airline - he absolutely did the right thing by going to the media!

 

[padawans]

There is an avalanche of valid reasons why people don't want to be touched. The fact that we are so diverse is the reason for the laws we have in place and, specifically, the reason why we have the Constitution and the Supreme Court to defend it. Think about it, our founding fathers were so concerned with the likelihood that our Constitution would be threatened that they erected and ENTIRE branch of Government whose sole job is to defend it against attack. The magnitude of the dynamic should give anyone pause.

I get that people are frightened of terrorism, I am too. I grew up in the shadows of the WTC and I personally knew a few people who died. I grew up looking at those buildings in my hometown and the devastation it caused there breaks my heart so I take the whole fight very seriously. But fear is driving the bus right now. Those of you who are finding fault with me because you charge my worries are rooted in fear PLEASE tell me what exactly is it that is driving the charge to make our airports safer if it isn't fear?

How can anyone argue with a straight face that the fear of terrorists is more valid than the fear of losing personal freedoms and how on earth can any reasonable person not see that fear is on both sides of the issue, the only difference is we are afraid of different things? That doesn't make one side or the other more right, or more justified... it actually makes us all the same.

In my opinion we could all do with a little more respect and a little less hostility

I am much more afraid of losing personal liberties and the government intrusion in our lives then I am of the terrorists. The best way for a government to control society is through fear. They feed off of your fears and profit from it. One to make money and two pass more laws to take away more freedoms. This has gone on throughout history. It doesnt happen over night. It's a slow process. Then one day wake up and your living in a whole New World. Will we recognize the US in 10 years? Not if we continue down the path were on.

 

[rie'smom]

I am much more afraid of losing personal liberties and the government intrusion in our lives then I am of the terrorists. The best way for a government to control society is through fear. They feed off of your fears and profit from it. One to make money and two pass more laws to take away more freedoms. This has gone on throughout history. It doesnt happen over night. It's a slow process. Then one day wake up and your living in a whole New World. Will we recognize the US in 10 years? Not if we continue down the path were on.

 

[Muushka]

I am much more afraid of losing personal liberties and the government intrusion in our lives then I am of the terrorists. The best way for a government to control society is through fear. They feed off of your fears and profit from it. One to make money and two pass more laws to take away more freedoms. This has gone on throughout history. It doesnt happen over night. It's a slow process. Then one day wake up and your living in a whole New World. Will we recognize the US in 10 years? Not if we continue down the path were on.

You feel like the frog in the warm water too? I thought it was just me.

 

[punkin]

I am not sure that encroaching government is a huge problem. I do see some signs I don't like but what concerns me more is the fact that I don't believe any of these measures are actually making us any safer. They are more intrusive without any payoff.

 

[CathrynRose]

From my experience with TSA, I've found that it matters where you are. When an ATL TSA agent decided that my daughter who was four had to have a strip search, I understood the need for random searches and was willing to comply UNTIL the agent said that I could not go back there with her because I was male. No one in an airport is taking my daughter away from me. Several supervisor and agents decided that I could after all, go back with her for the search.

.

Did you guys miss the above??

I'm beyond floored.

 

[bicker]

And even fewer can say that they read the entire bill considering the objectives and obligations of the entire government, rather than just their own personal preferences.

And now who's putting words in whose mouth?

Perhaps you're thinking of the term "putting words in my mouth" in a manner completely inconsistent with generally-accepted usage. Read over the message you replied to (reproduced here for your convenience). You'll see clearly that it was a comment I made, and observation of the situation as-it-were, rather than suggesting anything with regard to what you may have or may not have said, at least not in the message you replied to.

As my nephew often says: Chill dude.

You have no concept as to what objectives or obligations I may or may not have considered.

You've chosen not to share that with us. That is your choice; one you're entitled to assuredly; but please do accept the consequences of that choice.

You have also failed to address the possibility that the way you see the objectives and obligations of the entire government is not the way that I see them.

Not really; the objectives and obligations are what they are, without regard to either your preferences or mine. Neither you nor I get to determine that. If you think you do, then you're way off-track.

If there is a single, crystal clear list of objectives and obligations, then why do we have divided government in the first place?

If you listen to what the various sides say, you'll know that they claim not to disagree about the objectives, but rather just how to achieve them.

The difference is, you have purported throughout this thread that collective agreement against the policies equivocates to "hysteria" and "mob mentality."

To be fair, I didn't come up with the former word; it was put forward by others who support my side of the issue, and reused by others who support your side of the issue, before I had any interaction with it. I have made the point though (if not in this thread then in others) that what we say here is pretty meaningless in the grand scheme of things, outside of the how it reflect the more general discussion going on in society. So accept that those characterizations apply generally, without regard to whether or not they apply within this thread.

I take the position that collective agreement is simply that--a large group of people who feel that something "the government" did is wrong.

After-the-fact. In the court of public opinion, rather than the processes within which reasonable decisions can be made.

Our entire country was founded in the court of public opinion--that's the right and, according to Thomas Jefferson, the duty of a free people.

Then why did Jefferson create a representative government, a republic, instead of a true democracy?

 

[punkin]

Did you guys miss the above??

I'm beyond floored.

Doesn't matter. You can write a million first hand experiences with TSA overreaching and people will still be shouting "mass hysteria".

 

[C.Ann]

We just returned Friday from RSW. My experience. No shoes, no belt, no problem. I walked through the magnatron and collected my belongings. DH set off the magnatron. He has an artificial hip. He always sets off the magnatron. He was patted down completely, meaning chest, under arms, waist band, both legs all the way up. He was wanded again and the procedure was repeated. At no time did they touch any "private" area.
An elderly woman in a wheel chair was escorted through. I didn't see her until after she exited the search area. What I did see was a very nice, kind, TSA agent who told her to take her time, help her sort out her belongings, handed her, her lipstick, put her shoes on for her with a shoe horn, made pleasant conversation and sent her on her way.

Well I see this as a good thing! And I also wouldn't be surprised if it's due to all of the back lash; outrage; pilot and flight attendant unions speaking out; public outcry; the ACLU speaking out; threats of a boycott on the busiest flying day of the year; etc.. No one can say they haven't heard about it - so I would assume that they're being on their best behavior - at least for now..

 

[emh1129]

Most people passing through security do not get scanned. Make it easy. Provide him with shoes that slip on and off, a removable jacket, no belt and chances he will walk right through, they will smile and tell him to enjoy his flight. Don't anticipate the worst.

Those are good tips & we definitely do those things whenever we fly. (Except for the slip on and off shoes, which he can't wear.)
I wouldn't say I'm anticipating the worst, necessarily, but I'm acknowledging the very real possibilities that exist now.
And with a special needs child, it's trying to be as informed & prepared as possible.. so that we can avoid situations like what I described, which would be negative for all involved.
I guess it's just not knowing.. it's a bit of a gamble, right? And if I took that bet and lost.. and we happened to be some of the lucky ones to deal with the new scanner/ new pat down.. then what? Not like we could bow out and say "uhh..nevermind.." .. and turn around and try to leave. Don't think they'd let us do that.

I'll try to keep an eye on it over the next month and see how this all evolves. I think we'll see some new rules & regulations regarding this and I'll just re-evaluate at that time.

 

[Minnie]

I fly out for a work trip in a couple of days.... wish me luck

Really hoping that this is not as bad as it sounds