Transgenders and bathrooms....

[Planogirl]

Sure it's possible to provide individual changing facilities, but that gets expensive rather quickly to provide that for everyone. In most cases it would be impractical because it takes up much more space. What's not possible when the law is in force it to tell (possibly even suggest) members of a protected class to do something specifically because others are uncomfortable with their presence. I certainly understand the sentiment and don't take it as something that's on the same level as wanting a black/Asian/etc person to be elsewhere. However, in the case of the federal education guidance letter, that for a trans person is equally prohibited. That's just the reality.

And you could end up with people avoiding situations they feel uncomfortable with and even worse a backlash from some idiots. At one time trans people simply went about their day and used the bathroom where they felt comfortable. It has only been since this push that all of this has become a big deal.

I don't agree that individual changing facilities would be so difficult. Curtains or dividers could be placed and those wouldn't be so outrageous.

 

[bcla]

And you could end up with people avoiding situations they feel uncomfortable with and even worse a backlash from some idiots. At one time trans people simply went about their day and used the bathroom where they felt comfortable. It has only been since this push that all of this has become a big deal.

I don't agree that individual changing facilities would be so difficult. Curtains or dividers could be placed and those wouldn't be so outrageous.

Well yeah. There was certainly a time where this wasn't particularly on anyone's radar. However, I'm guessing that there were enough cases where trans people were denied and they lobbied for some of these local laws, which was followed by a backlash.

It really depends. I saw my first coed bathroom in the late 80s, but it did occur to me that it was somewhat space inefficient. Two individual showers (separated with a curtain) took almost as much space as the shared shower area with maybe 8 shower heads. Anything can be done with enough space and money.

In the end, it's probably going to require people to adapt. Heck - I remember coed locker rooms n a couple of Paul Verhoeven movies - Robocop and Starship Troopers. Those had societies where men and women didn't really worry too much about routine nakedness.

 

[bcla]

Revisiting this......

A judge has blocked the University of North Carolina from enforcing the part of the law regarding bathrooms.

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/politics-government/article98180277.html

RALEIGH - The federal judge who will preside over one of the trials challenging House Bill 2 issued a ruling on Friday that blocks the UNC system from enforcing the bathroom portion of the controversial law for three transgender residents who have challenged it.

In the 81-page ruling, U.S. District Judge Thomas Schroeder said it is likely that the transgender challengers will succeed in their argument that HB2 violates federal law, in part because of how an appeals court with jurisdiction over North Carolina has ruled in a Virginia teen’s case.

HB2, adopted in late March, requires people in schools, universities and other government facilities to use bathrooms matching the gender on their birth certificates. Another part of the law that was not challenged in this lawsuit forbids local governments from passing anti-discrimination laws stronger than state law, which does not explicitly include sexual orientation and gender identity.​

 

[ronandannette]

OK - 3 months later this whole thing is still just a stupid. If the goal is orderly conduct and the simplest way for everybody to just get through their day, people should use whatever bathroom matches the gender they present as...get in do, their thing and get out.

 

[Mrs. Ciz]

Revisiting this......

A judge has blocked the University of North Carolina from enforcing the part of the law regarding bathrooms.

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/politics-government/article98180277.html

RALEIGH - The federal judge who will preside over one of the trials challenging House Bill 2 issued a ruling on Friday that blocks the UNC system from enforcing the bathroom portion of the controversial law for three transgender residents who have challenged it.

In the 81-page ruling, U.S. District Judge Thomas Schroeder said it is likely that the transgender challengers will succeed in their argument that HB2 violates federal law, in part because of how an appeals court with jurisdiction over North Carolina has ruled in a Virginia teen’s case.

HB2, adopted in late March, requires people in schools, universities and other government facilities to use bathrooms matching the gender on their birth certificates. Another part of the law that was not challenged in this lawsuit forbids local governments from passing anti-discrimination laws stronger than state law, which does not explicitly include sexual orientation and gender identity.​

The Virginia case has not yet been resolved. This happened in early August. As of right now, the Supreme Court has blocked him from using the boys bathroom until they review and decide whether they will hear his case.

"The Supreme Court signaled in an order Wednesday that it is highly likely to grapple with the issue of transgender bathrooms in its coming term. Acting on a 5-3 vote, the justices put on hold a groundbreaking court ruling requiring a Virginia school district to accommodate a transgender high school student’s request to use the boys’ bathroom. It’s the first time the high court has shown interest in the transgender bathroom issue, which has prompted nearly half of states to sue the Obama administration over its interpretation of federal civil rights law." http://www.politico.com/story/2016/...-virginia-student-to-use-boys-bathroom-226636

 

[bcla]

The Virginia case has not yet been resolved. This happened in early August. As of right now, the Supreme Court has blocked him from using the boys bathroom until they review and decide whether they will hear his case.

"The Supreme Court signaled in an order Wednesday that it is highly likely to grapple with the issue of transgender bathrooms in its coming term. Acting on a 5-3 vote, the justices put on hold a groundbreaking court ruling requiring a Virginia school district to accommodate a transgender high school student’s request to use the boys’ bathroom. It’s the first time the high court has shown interest in the transgender bathroom issue, which has prompted nearly half of states to sue the Obama administration over its interpretation of federal civil rights law." http://www.politico.com/story/2016/...-virginia-student-to-use-boys-bathroom-226636

Here's the the part of the injunction that covers that:

http://media2.newsobserver.com/content/media/2016/8/26/HB2injunction.pdf

In light of the foregoing, the fate of G.G. is uncertain. But, despite the stay and recall of the mandate, the Supreme Court did not vacate or reverse the Fourth Circuit’s decision. See G.G., 136 S. Ct. at 2442. Thus, while other courts may reach contrary decisions, see Texas v. United States, No. 7:16cv54, 2016 WL 4426495, at *14–15, (N.D. Tex. Aug. 21, 2016) (adopting the view advanced in Judge Niemeyer’s dissenting opinion from G.G.), at present G.G. remains the law in this circuit. See United States v. Collins, 415 F.3d 304, 311 (4th Cir. 2005) (“A decision of a panel of this court becomes the law of the circuit and is binding on other panels unless it is overruled by a subsequent en banc opinion of this court or a superseding contrary decision of the Supreme Court.”); Friel Prosthetics, Inc. v. Bank of America, No. CIV.A.DKC 2004-3481, 2005 WL 348263, at *1 & n.4 (D. Md. Feb. 9, 2005) (noting that a stay of a Fourth Circuit mandate in a separate case would not “prevent the Fourth Circuit decision from having precedential value and binding authority” in the present case); see also Abukar v. Ashcroft, No. 01-242, 2004 WL 741759, at *2–3 (D. Minn. Mar. 17, 2004) (assuming that an Eighth Circuit opinion in a separate case retained its precedential value despite the Eighth Circuit’s subsequent decision to recall and stay its own mandate in light of impending Supreme Court review).​

 

[mjkacmom]

I know this is an old three, but dropping Ds off at college, the dorm bathrooms were labeled male indentified and female identified.

 

[bcla]

Just to be more specific, the injunction only applies to the plaintiffs in the case. Also, UNC stated that they had no intention of enforcing the law given that there was no punishment provision.

 

[ronandannette]

I know this is an old three, but dropping Ds off at college, the dorm bathrooms were labeled male indentified and female identified.

I don't think this solves the problem either. A person "identifying" as one gender or another isn't enough - they have to also "present" as that gender to keep people from freaking out about men being in the ladies room (which, long story short - is what has raised the most vociferous opposition).

 

[SirDuff]

I don't think this solves the problem either. A person "identifying" as one gender or another isn't enough - they have to also "present" as that gender to keep people from freaking out about men being in the ladies room (which, long story short - is what has raised the most vociferous opposition).

While I get your point (and agree that that is the main issue raised), who is going to monitor whether someone presents "enough" to use that bathroom? Even among people whose gender matches the sex on their birth certificate, there is a wide range in how the present. I'm a cis-gender female but had very short hair a little kid (under eight) and more than once, was told that I was using the wrong bathroom (kindly - the people appeared to honestly believe that I had entered the wrong bathroom by mistake). I know that the issue isn't children, but I think that the problem still remains.

 

[Magpie]

While I get your point (and agree that that is the main issue raised), who is going to monitor whether someone presents "enough" to use that bathroom? Even among people whose gender matches the sex on their birth certificate, there is a wide range in how the present. I'm a cis-gender female but had very short hair a little kid (under eight) and more than once, was told that I was using the wrong bathroom (kindly - the people appeared to honestly believe that I had entered the wrong bathroom by mistake). I know that the issue isn't children, but I think that the problem still remains.

You're absolutely right, it's a problem. Some people have apparently been taking it on themselves to be the "Bathroom Police":

http://www.teenvogue.com/story/woman-mistaken-transgender-bathroom-attack

Meanwhile, I was pleased to see that my (Canadian) church has signs inside all our bathroom, which basically say, "Mind your own business!" with regards to other users of the bathroom. Each of us is capable of deciding which is the correct bathroom for us, and we all need to respect that.

(BTW, I was mistaken for a boy through most of my young girlhood, too. It was entirely the fault of those 70's bowl cuts my mum kept giving me, combined with the jeans I preferred to wear - even little boys thought I was a boy! Which I actually thought was pretty cool, tbh. Figured I was like a spy, or something.)

 

[desamnik]

solving problems that do not exist, only in america

Since the beginning of time people were born as either a male or a female. All animals are born the same way. I don't get this. Whatever you were born as use those facilities. Let's spend some time solving real problems, cause yes we have some of those.

 

[Magpie]

Since the beginning of time people were born as either a male or a female. All animals are born the same way. I don't get this. Whatever you were born as use those facilities. Let's spend some time solving real problems, cause yes we have some of those.

That's actually not the case, for either human or animal.

Some animals (many, actually) are born female, but exhibit male behavioural patterns. And vice versa. Heck, I have a female dog who will hike her leg to pee and who happily humps our cat. Does she feel she's a male dog? Who can say - we can't ask her.

But we CAN ask people.

And there are MANY people in the world who are very clear that they feel like their gender doesn't match their genitalia. Some of these people say they remember feeling the mismatch as young as age three. And science seems to be backing them up - there appear to be brain differences between men and women, and trans people often have brains that more closely match that of the gender they say they feel, rather than the one displayed by their bodies.

And that's not even touching on people who are born looking female, but actually have male chromosomes (like Olympian Caster Semenya). It's called Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome - the infant develops an outward female appearance, including female genitalia, but actually has testes tucked up inside of them, instead of ovaries.

Gender is not a simple either-or, born female or born male. Gender is a fluid thing, with many permutations. And a lot of people don't fit into simple boxes. A lot of animals don't, either.

 

[kimblebee]

Since the beginning of time people were born as either a male or a female. All animals are born the same way. I don't get this. Whatever you were born as use those facilities. Let's spend some time solving real problems, cause yes we have some of those.

Here's seven animals that change genders..

http://voices.nationalgeographic.com/2013/09/22/7-gender-bending-animals/

 

[Magpie]

Here's seven animals that change genders..

http://voices.nationalgeographic.com/2013/09/22/7-gender-bending-animals/

Also, clownfish!

Yep, little Nemo would have hatched as an undifferentiated hermaphrodite, like all baby clownfish. However, with mama dead, Marlin - as the sole, surviving adult - would have changed gender, becoming a female clownfish. Nemo, in the presence of an adult female, would have become male. Then Nemo and Marlin would have mated, producing the next generation of clownfish.

If anything had happened to Marlin, Nemo would then have become female and mated with another male.

It'd be a VERY different movie!

 

[jevs]

Maybe we should all just go behind a tree at a park.

 

[King Schultz]

Maybe we should all just go behind a tree at a park.

Depends.

 

[jevs]

Depends.

they would work as well.

 

[GaryDis]

Also, clownfish!

Clownfish are the same as anemonefish, as listed in that article.

 

[jevs]

Oysters can change back and forth as they see fit.