Transgenders and bathrooms....

[Mrs. Ciz]

They all have the same rights - and they can choose to be in the locker room or not. The few are not stomping on the many.

If everyone in the US agreed with you then it would not be the big hot button issue it's become. Lots of people believe otherwise. The district court in Gloucester County believed otherwise. Not even judges can agree on this issue.

Humans have been debating the rights issue for hundreds of years. Think Socrates - are the rights of the individual more important that the rights of society. People fall on one side of the debate or the other. That's why we are still debating it in 2016.

As I said before, it is a very complicated and delicate issue.

 

[luvsJack]

No, it's the job of the parents. It ends up being the job of the school because some parents don't do a good enough job, IMO.



The kids I've worked with (20+ years) adapt much faster than the teachers or administration adapt. It's the old fogies who have a hard time dealing with change. The kids know all about it already, and don't see it as an issue.



They all have the same rights - and they can choose to be in the locker room or not. The few are not stomping on the many.

BTW, every girls' locker room I've been in has had individual shower stalls. I asked the high school boys I work with, and they said only one school in our division has a group shower in the boys' locker room. Our teams tend to come back to our school to shower/change for the most part anyways.

Its the job of the parents yes to teach their kid right from wrong. But the job of monitoring what is going on in the school IS the job of the school. There is no way around that. If a kid is caught the school can give it back to the parent but the parents cannot come into the school and see what is happening. Besides nothing the pp was describing has anything to do with this issue.

Kids having sex in a bathroom stall is not a symptom of a transgender kid being or not being allowed in the restroom. I still don't get her connection.


I agree with the rest of your post. Dd and her friends don't see the big deal in all this. They are much more accepting than the generations befor them.

 

[IndyRnRfan]

This ^^^^^
I keep hearing people say "but what about the kids???? They'll never understand!" In my experience, the kids aren't the ones with the problem

If that's the correct way to think, shouldn't kids be raising parents then?

And those of you that think kids understand, I've taught and coached kids from 12-18 over the last 17 years and this will cause problems in locker rooms.

 

[Maistre Gracey]

Lol!!! I really, truly wish I had the energy to respond to all the posts using my iPhone.

That said, I'm not sure there is a right or wrong answer here. Some here want to call people bigots because they have a different viewpoint. That's too bad. All viewpoints should be tolerated and respectfully listened to... And than accepted as that persons opinion. Too many here come across as the final decision maker.

Tolerance IS a two way street, but it's said many don't realize that.

I'm out, as I truly have better things to do than read through 10 pages of posts and respond after a long days work.

MG

 

[Goofy_Disney_Dad]

Lol!!! I really, truly wish I had the energy to respond to all the posts using my iPhone.

That said, I'm not sure there is a right or wrong answer here. Some here want to call people bigots because they have a different viewpoint. That's too bad. All viewpoints should be tolerated and respectfully listened to... And than accepted as that persons opinion. Too many here come across as the final decision maker.

Tolerance IS a two way street, but it's said many don't realize that.

I'm out, as I truly have better things to do than read through 10 pages of posts and respond after a long days work.

MG

Thanks for taking the time to reply letting us know you won't be replying...

 

[Planogirl]

My "and?" was to Planogirl

I was asking questions. I didn't think I also had to answer my questions?

Unless I'm not understanding the "and?" If I'm not then my honest answer is "I don't know."

 

[damskipi13]

This ^^^^^
I keep hearing people say "but what about the kids???? They'll never understand!" In my experience, the kids aren't the ones with the problem

If that's the correct way to think, shouldn't kids be raising parents then?

And those of you that think kids understand, I've taught and coached kids from 12-18 over the last 17 years and this will cause problems in locker rooms.

You honestly think that because I said kids don't have a problem understanding transgendered people using the bathroom of their identified gender, that means I think kids should be raising parents? I mean, you honestly think that? That is a rational thought to you? Have you heard of reductio ad absurdum? Because you are displaying it very nicely here.

 

[EMom]

I don't care about the bathroom aspect, as there are stalls for privacy. But the locker room aspect troubles me. Not all locker rooms have stalls. DD is in a dance group which has 35-50 girls changing at one time in a single room with mirrored walls. They all turn "butt out" for some semblance of privacy, but if you look up and see the mirror, you get a full view of everything, because they disrobe completely. Totally naked. Some of them have no trouble with modesty, and some are still very uncomfortable and just struggle through it. And that is with all females in the room. So far, a boy hasn't tried out for the team, but one could since there are no rules against it. And other locker rooms like this one exist for sports. Big old open locker rooms with no privacy stalls.

It is not practical to provide a private changing area to the modest girls/boys. They will outnumber the (probably) single transgender student. Schools don't have the space or money to add all those changing rooms. If 20-30% of the class decides they want to have privacy and there is only one privacy stall, they may never get changed and ready for class on time. In any other scenario, someone of the opposite sex exposing genitalia to minors would be a crime, but now it's all good? We need to stop and take a breath on this one and think. A compromise is in order and in this case, a separate changing room for transgender students is the most practical solution, even though the Dept. of Education says otherwise.

It's not that I don't have sympathy for transgender students. But tolerance runs both ways and the modest students who don't want to change in front of someone of the opposite sex (not gender) are not unreasonable. They should not be made to feel like they are awful if they are less than enthusiastic about the new policy.

 

[kamik86]

I don't care about the bathroom aspect, as there are stalls for privacy. But the locker room aspect troubles me. Not all locker rooms have stalls. DD is in a dance group which has 35-50 girls changing at one time in a single room with mirrored walls. They all turn "butt out" for some semblance of privacy, but if you look up and see the mirror, you get a full view of everything, because they disrobe completely. Totally naked. Some of them have no trouble with modesty, and some are still very uncomfortable and just struggle through it. And that is with all females in the room. So far, a boy hasn't tried out for the team, but one could since there are no rules against it. And other locker rooms like this one exist for sports. Big old open locker rooms with no privacy stalls.

It is not practical to provide a private changing area to the modest girls/boys. They will outnumber the (probably) single transgender student. Schools don't have the space or money to add all those changing rooms. If 20-30% of the class decides they want to have privacy and there is only one privacy stall, they may never get changed and ready for class on time. In any other scenario, someone of the opposite sex exposing genitalia to minors would be a crime, but now it's all good? We need to stop and take a breath on this one and think. A compromise is in order and in this case, a separate changing room for transgender students is the most practical solution, even though the Dept. of Education says otherwise.

It's not that I don't have sympathy for transgender students. But tolerance runs both ways and the modest students who don't want to change in front of someone of the opposite sex (not gender) are not unreasonable. They should not be made to feel like they are awful if they are less than enthusiastic about the new policy.

Well in schools most of the time no it wouldn't be because they would all be minors... would be an interesting discussion with an older senior on a sports team though.

As for the rest of the post I would think another requirement should be added in for any new or remodeled locker rooms to give the privacy as that does solve much of the issue. I know all the schools don't have money to suddently have to redesign and build in dividers, but maybe they shouldn't keep building them this way.

 

[mnrose]

It's times like these that I wish we, as a society, were not so hung up on the nude human form. We are so prudish sometimes. In other cultures, it just isn't a big deal. Heck in Europe, there are TV ads with nudity all the time. Regular old TV ads. No one thinks twice about it and goes about their business. Can't imagine there is such an outcry there about locker rooms and bathrooms.

Anyway, I do get that culturally, we are pretty uptight about the naked human form and we translate it immediately to "sex." So, it creates this issue. My friend's son is transgender (female to male). Breasts have been surgically removed, but no bottom surgery. He plays on the boy's rugby team, and there is no issue at all with teammates. He showers in a closed stall, and covers with a towel to move around the locker room until he has appropriate undergarments on. Uses closed stalls in the restrooms. Shrug.

Unless you KNEW there would be no way for the casual observer to know that he used to be a she. In fact, using the female locker rooms would be MUCH more of an issue. He has a beard. Chest hair. No breasts. I dare say the female students would be much more bothered by him being there.

 

[ronandannette]

Use the bathroom that your biological plumbing calls for. If you get the biological plumbing changed than ou can use the bathroom that meets your plumbing requirements no matter what your birth certificate says. I don't care if the user is uncomfortable, think about how the other patron's comfort level is too.

Read this back to yourself and I think you'll recognize how TOTALLY ILLOGICAL your statement is. Do you really think guys in a men's room are going to be "comfortable" with what appears to be a woman lifting a skirt, exposing a ***** and using the trough beside them? Or that women in a ladies' room would even have any idea that the person in the next stall had male genitals instead of female?

If anything, one is most "comfortable" and inconspicuous using what ever bathroom matches their outward appearance.

This question makes me wonder what trans people did all along,at Disney and all other places. I imagine they went in the bathroom they thought appropriate and no one noticed or cared. Now this is a huge issue...

Yes, if ever there was a useful application of the DADT policy, this bathroom issue is it.

 

[damskipi13]

I don't care about the bathroom aspect, as there are stalls for privacy. But the locker room aspect troubles me. Not all locker rooms have stalls. DD is in a dance group which has 35-50 girls changing at one time in a single room with mirrored walls. They all turn "butt out" for some semblance of privacy, but if you look up and see the mirror, you get a full view of everything, because they disrobe completely. Totally naked. Some of them have no trouble with modesty, and some are still very uncomfortable and just struggle through it. And that is with all females in the room. So far, a boy hasn't tried out for the team, but one could since there are no rules against it. And other locker rooms like this one exist for sports. Big old open locker rooms with no privacy stalls.

It is not practical to provide a private changing area to the modest girls/boys. They will outnumber the (probably) single transgender student. Schools don't have the space or money to add all those changing rooms. If 20-30% of the class decides they want to have privacy and there is only one privacy stall, they may never get changed and ready for class on time. In any other scenario, someone of the opposite sex exposing genitalia to minors would be a crime, but now it's all good? We need to stop and take a breath on this one and think. A compromise is in order and in this case, a separate changing room for transgender students is the most practical solution, even though the Dept. of Education says otherwise.

It's not that I don't have sympathy for transgender students. But tolerance runs both ways and the modest students who don't want to change in front of someone of the opposite sex (not gender) are not unreasonable. They should not be made to feel like they are awful if they are less than enthusiastic about the new policy.

Thank you, this was a very measured, rational response. The only part I have trouble with (and it's not just you saying it) is the thought that people in locker rooms can't use a stall for privacy. I'm talking about anyone of any gender, completely separate from the transgender issue. Every locker room I have ever been in had stalls, because it was also a bathroom. Between schools and gyms, I've been in probably 30 or so different locker rooms in at least 8 different states. Are there locker rooms that are not this way? I always changed in the bathroom stall when I was in middle school and high school, not because I was worried about boys seeing me but because I had body issues. I can see where changing in a dance room with mirrors isn't the best option, but I've seriously never seen or heard of a locker room that doesn't have bathroom stalls.

By the way, DOE wanted separate changing rooms for transgendered students, but a school was sued for this because the student using it felt discriminated against by being separated. So now legal precedence is set. Many on this board seem to be in favor of having a unisex area that can be used for that purpose, but unfortunately that solution doesn't seem acceptable.

 

[ChrisFL]

I think it's funny how some people are treating the new transgender stuff as if it's akin to a zombie apocalypse

 

[bcla]

By the way, DOE wanted separate changing rooms for transgendered students, but a school was sued for this because the student using it felt discriminated against by being separated. So now legal precedence is set. Many on this board seem to be in favor of having a unisex area that can be used for that purpose, but unfortunately that solution doesn't seem acceptable.

The federal guidelines letter specifies that no trans student is to be forced to use a particular set of facilities against one's personal will. It does specify that there can be an allowance for personal preferences to use individual facilities if one feels more comfortable. Most interpret that as meaning a trans student or someone uncomfortable with the presence of a trans student can opt out of communal facilities.

But whatever the case, it's supposed to be the school's responsibility to prevent harassment.

Heck, my schools never had much issues. We never showered (would have taken too much time) and I never recall anyone ever stripped naked. I didn't particularly like changing around others. I was a skinny kid and not particularly proud of my body. As with most kids, I wanted in and out of there ASAP.

 

[bcla]

I think it's funny how some people are treating the new transgender stuff as if it's akin to a zombie apocalypse

Maybe a wish that they didn't exist or that they could just "keep quiet".

 

[damskipi13]

The federal guidelines letter specifies that no trans student is to be forced to use a particular set of facilities against one's personal will. It does specify that there can be an allowance for personal preferences to use individual facilities if one feels more comfortable. Most interpret that as meaning a trans student or someone uncomfortable with the presence of a trans student can opt out of communal facilities.

But whatever the case, it's supposed to be the school's responsibility to prevent harassment.

Heck, my schools never had much issues. We never showered (would have taken too much time) and I never recall anyone ever stripped naked. I didn't particularly like changing around others. I was a skinny kid and not particularly proud of my body. As with most kids, I wanted in and out of there ASAP.

Absolutely correct. I didn't mean to imply that schools couldn't provide a separate area, just that they aren't allowed to force a student to use that area. I suspect many people would love to change in private and that their reasoning will have nothing to do with transgenderism.

 

[SirDuff]

I don't care about the bathroom aspect, as there are stalls for privacy. But the locker room aspect troubles me. Not all locker rooms have stalls. DD is in a dance group which has 35-50 girls changing at one time in a single room with mirrored walls. They all turn "butt out" for some semblance of privacy, but if you look up and see the mirror, you get a full view of everything, because they disrobe completely. Totally naked. Some of them have no trouble with modesty, and some are still very uncomfortable and just struggle through it. And that is with all females in the room. So far, a boy hasn't tried out for the team, but one could since there are no rules against it. And other locker rooms like this one exist for sports. Big old open locker rooms with no privacy stalls.

It is not practical to provide a private changing area to the modest girls/boys. They will outnumber the (probably) single transgender student. Schools don't have the space or money to add all those changing rooms. If 20-30% of the class decides they want to have privacy and there is only one privacy stall, they may never get changed and ready for class on time. In any other scenario, someone of the opposite sex exposing genitalia to minors would be a crime, but now it's all good? We need to stop and take a breath on this one and think. A compromise is in order and in this case, a separate changing room for transgender students is the most practical solution, even though the Dept. of Education says otherwise.

It's not that I don't have sympathy for transgender students. But tolerance runs both ways and the modest students who don't want to change in front of someone of the opposite sex (not gender) are not unreasonable. They should not be made to feel like they are awful if they are less than enthusiastic about the new policy.

I don't disagree with the sentiment of your post (that some kids will have trouble (heck, I didn't like changing in front of *anyone* didn't matter gender/sex), but the bit I bolded is a red herring - it is illegal for someone of EITHER sex to expose their genitalia to minors. So, you could make the same comment of the current situation for your DD's dance group (presence or absence of a transgendered individual).

 

[IndyRnRfan]

You honestly think that because I said kids don't have a problem understanding transgendered people using the bathroom of their identified gender, that means I think kids should be raising parents? I mean, you honestly think that? That is a rational thought to you? Have you heard of reductio ad absurdum? Because you are displaying it very nicely here.

Yes, I sure have. Guess my sarcastic comment didn't come off as sarcastic to some on here.

I don't know how high schools are around other parts of the country, but around here boys and girls shower in PE and after practices. Not all but I bet half of the boys do. Heck, up until about 15 years ago, a shower was mandatory in junior high/middle school as it was part of your grade in PE

 

[Mrs. Ciz]

Thank you, this was a very measured, rational response. The only part I have trouble with (and it's not just you saying it) is the thought that people in locker rooms can't use a stall for privacy. I'm talking about anyone of any gender, completely separate from the transgender issue. Every locker room I have ever been in had stalls, because it was also a bathroom. Between schools and gyms, I've been in probably 30 or so different locker rooms in at least 8 different states. Are there locker rooms that are not this way? I always changed in the bathroom stall when I was in middle school and high school, not because I was worried about boys seeing me but because I had body issues. I can see where changing in a dance room with mirrors isn't the best option, but I've seriously never seen or heard of a locker room that doesn't have bathroom stalls.

By the way, DOE wanted separate changing rooms for transgendered students, but a school was sued for this because the student using it felt discriminated against by being separated. So now legal precedence is set. Many on this board seem to be in favor of having a unisex area that can be used for that purpose, but unfortunately that solution doesn't seem acceptable.

I have. DD's HS was built in 1962 and has had very little renovation over the years. The sports locker room does not have any individual stalls, just a big open room with benches. One of the schools I went to had open showers. One of the older YMCAs in my town still has open showers. Not ever organization or school has the money to retrofit their facilities.

 

[DisneyOma]

Its the job of the parents yes to teach their kid right from wrong. But the job of monitoring what is going on in the school IS the job of the school. There is no way around that. If a kid is caught the school can give it back to the parent but the parents cannot come into the school and see what is happening. Besides nothing the pp was describing has anything to do with this issue.

Kids having sex in a bathroom stall is not a symptom of a transgender kid being or not being allowed in the restroom. I still don't get her connection.


I agree with the rest of your post. Dd and her friends don't see the big deal in all this. They are much more accepting than the generations befor them.

But lots of parents are not teaching their kids right from wrong - there's way too much need for monitoring in the schools, at least the schools I've worked in. Gone are the days when you'd get in double trouble for getting in trouble at school - not only would there be a consequence at school, but your parents would discipline as well. Now, more often than not, the school gets blamed for the behavior, and the parents side with the kid, so the kid knows he can get away with pretty much anything short of murder. that's what my point was.

I don't care about the bathroom aspect, as there are stalls for privacy. But the locker room aspect troubles me. Not all locker rooms have stalls. DD is in a dance group which has 35-50 girls changing at one time in a single room with mirrored walls. They all turn "butt out" for some semblance of privacy, but if you look up and see the mirror, you get a full view of everything, because they disrobe completely. Totally naked. Some of them have no trouble with modesty, and some are still very uncomfortable and just struggle through it. And that is with all females in the room. So far, a boy hasn't tried out for the team, but one could since there are no rules against it. And other locker rooms like this one exist for sports. Big old open locker rooms with no privacy stalls.

It is not practical to provide a private changing area to the modest girls/boys. They will outnumber the (probably) single transgender student. Schools don't have the space or money to add all those changing rooms. If 20-30% of the class decides they want to have privacy and there is only one privacy stall, they may never get changed and ready for class on time. In any other scenario, someone of the opposite sex exposing genitalia to minors would be a crime, but now it's all good? We need to stop and take a breath on this one and think. A compromise is in order and in this case, a separate changing room for transgender students is the most practical solution, even though the Dept. of Education says otherwise.

It's not that I don't have sympathy for transgender students. But tolerance runs both ways and the modest students who don't want to change in front of someone of the opposite sex (not gender) are not unreasonable. They should not be made to feel like they are awful if they are less than enthusiastic about the new policy.

My daughter's dance company wore undergarments at all times - mostly unitards. No need to be naked. We also had a pop up changing room for a time, for when they had to change outside during an event.

All the locker rooms I've been in have multiple stalls, along with the stalls in the bathroom. Schools have more than one bathroom, at least all the high school ones I've been in, etc.

There are multiple solutions for each issue you've brought up. People just have to try them.

Yes, I sure have. Guess my sarcastic comment didn't come off as sarcastic to some on here.

I don't know how high schools are around other parts of the country, but around here boys and girls shower in PE and after practices. Not all but I bet half of the boys do. Heck, up until about 15 years ago, a shower was mandatory in junior high/middle school as it was part of your grade in PE

All the schools except one in our district have individual showers. The one that doesn't is very old.