Transgenders and bathrooms....

[RedAngie]

Hmmm, this thread has been going on for four days with few or no problems. Earlier today on the Theme Park Strategy board a similar thread was started and went poof very quickly, while I was composing a reply. I guess that one got really ugly really fast.

 

[CPanther95]

No, I'm not talking about that. It's always been the rule that if you CAN leave a space between you and the other guys, you do. What I was referring to was some new rule among a certain breed of men that it's NEVER OK to use a urinal next to one already in use. Not at halftime during a football game, not if there are only two urinals, NEVER. Not under ANY circumstances. Even at the urinals that have the divider walls that many seem to have these days. You're supposed to wait or use a stall.

There have been a few articles on the internet over the past few years explaining this etiquette. A few years ago two guys appeared on some talk show to discuss it. Roseanne Barr was also on the talk show. She listened until she couldn't stand it anymore, then finally blurted out a perfect response. Something like "Some men are such [cats]. Does Mommy still wipe you?"



I'd love a urinal in my house, maybe even a trough.

re: ettiquette
OK, that is ridiculous. If people are expecting that, they're going to have a hard life.

I wouldn't want a urinal in the house, but I wouldn't mind a bar height toilet.

 

[damskipi13]

Here's a thought....

Everyone is saying that there are laws already in place to protect people (women) in the bathroom (or I guess anywhere) from voyeurism, assault, naughty behavior (that is illegal) so it shouldn't matter if transgender women are allowed in the women's room.

Wouldn't those same laws protect anyone in any bathroom including transgender women who go in the men's room because it says "male" on their birth certificate?

So everyone should just be able to go into whatever bathroom they want regardless of the sign on the door. Me? I'd be going in the one with the shorter line.

The point here is that laws don't protect you. People who do bad things to other people don't care about laws.

I'm not 100% sure I'm reading your meaning correctly, so this might not make sense. But no, the laws that protect people from voyeurism, assault, etc won't protect transgendered individuals forced to use the bathroom of their birth-assigned sex. They haven't been experiencing sex crimes (for the most part), they have been experiencing hate crimes - intolerance, hate speech, and sometimes physical attacks. That's why most of us are in favor of allowing people to use the bathroom of their identified gender. In the vast majority of cases, people wouldn't even realize they were sharing a bathroom with someone of a different sex because they would only notice the outward appearance.

And you are right that people who do bad things to other people don't care about laws so they might still want to commit a hate crime, but since they wouldn't be able to tell who is transgendered the crime is less likely to happen. It's not a perfect system, but it's less likely to result in confrontation than forcing a transgendered man to use the women's restroom and having people scream and shout and pepper spray an enclosed space because they *think* someone is in the wrong restroom. I hope that makes sense.

 

[Mrs. Ciz]

Are you, maybe, talking about different laws? Clearly, the law (in NC) stating that you have to use the bathroom that matches the sex you were born with is not about protecting transgender people. However, laws that state that establishments must allow people to use the bathroom of their gender (I saw on the elevator TV (so have to look up details) that public schools are going to be told this today) are (could be?) about protecting transgender people.

I saw this too today. He is not just talking about bathrooms either. I read that he says school bathrooms, locker rooms and showers (and sports teams) need to be open for transgenders to choose the one they identify with or the schools will lose all federal funding. It's not like anonymous public toilets where no one knows who actually has which parts. High school kids know. I worry about a transgender with girl parts changing and showering in the boys locker room. I think that puts the transgender person at great risk. I also think that the transgender person with boy parts may make the girls who have to shower and change with her very uncomfortable. At this point I worry that the rights of a few are stomping on the rights of many.

 

[bcla]

I saw this too today. He is not just talking about bathrooms either. I read that he says school bathrooms, locker rooms and showers (and sports teams) need to be open for transgenders to choose the one they identify with or the schools will lose all federal funding. It's not like anonymous public toilets where no one knows who actually has which parts. High school kids know. I worry about a transgender with girl parts changing and showering in the boys locker room. I think that puts the transgender person at great risk. I also think that the transgender person with boy parts may make the girls who have to shower and change with her very uncomfortable. At this point I worry that the rights of a few are stomping on the rights of many.

I don't know where it is that this happens. In gym class we would change, but never showered or got down to more than underwear, and that was over 30 years ago.

In any case, it's at the direction of the child and parents and what they feel most comfortable with. This has to be taken carefully and with forethought. It's a real tough choice. And in any case I think we as a society worry too much about "which parts". That they're hidden makes them forbidden fruit to some degree. I remember as far as the movie Robocop in 1987 showed a coed locker room where nobody particularly cared.

Here's the actual guidance letter:

http://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/letters/colleague-201605-title-ix-transgender.pdf

And on this specific topic:

• Restrooms and Locker Rooms. A school may provide separate facilities on the basis of sex, but must allow transgender students access to such facilities consistent with their gender identity. A school may not require transgender students to use facilities inconsistent with their gender identity or to use individual-user facilities when other students are not required to do so. A school may, however, make individual-user options available to all students who voluntarily seek additional privacy.
  

 

[Mrs. Ciz]

I don't know where it is that this happens. In gym class we would change, but never showered or got down to more than underwear, and that was over 30 years ago.

In any case, it's at the direction of the child and parents and what they feel most comfortable with. This has to be taken carefully and with forethought. It's a real tough choice. And in any case I think we as a society worry too much about "which parts". That they're hidden makes them forbidden fruit to some degree. I remember as far as the movie Robocop in 1987 showed a coed locker room where nobody particularly cared.

Here's the actual guidance letter:

http://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/letters/colleague-201605-title-ix-transgender.pdf

And on this specific topic:

• Restrooms and Locker Rooms. A school may provide separate facilities on the basis of sex, but must allow transgender students access to such facilities consistent with their gender identity. A school may not require transgender students to use facilities inconsistent with their gender identity or to use individual-user facilities when other students are not required to do so. A school may, however, make individual-user options available to all students who voluntarily seek additional privacy.

Thank you for posting a link to the actual letter.

A school may, however, make individual-user options available to all students who voluntarily seek additional privacy

This had already become an issue in my state. A few weeks ago in Gloucester County a case went to the
appellate court. A transgender named Glen (with girl parts) wanted to use the boys facilities. The school allowed Glen to do so for a short time, but too many parents complained. The school provided a unisex private bathroom for Glen to use. Individual user options were not acceptable to Glen so he took the school to court. At first the court decided that Glen should use the unisex bathroom, but the decision was appealed and went to the appellate court. Glen won. The school must now allow him to use the boys facilities - no matter how the boys or the parents feel about it. So now if the boys want privacy, they need to all use the private individual user option, while Glen gets the bathroom & locker room.

Not sure this solves the issue for anyone on either side of the argument.

Here is the link if anyone wants it:
http://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/Opinions/Published/152056.P.pdf

 

[bcla]

Thank you for posting a link to the actual letter.

A school may, however, make individual-user options available to all students who voluntarily seek additional privacy

This had already become an issue in my state. A few weeks ago in Gloucester County a case went to the
appellate court. A transgender named Glen (with girl parts) wanted to use the boys facilities. The school allowed Glen to do so for a short time, but too many parents complained. The school provided a unisex private bathroom for Glen to use. Individual user options were not acceptable to Glen so he took the school to court. The case went all the way to the appellate court. Glen won. The school must now allow him to use the boys facilities - no matter how the boys or the parents feel about it. So now if the boys want privacy, they need to all use the private individual user option, while Glen gets the locker room.

This addresses that situation:

Schools have a responsibility to provide a safe and nondiscriminatory environment for all students, including transgender students. Harassment that targets a student based on gender identity, transgender status, or gender transition is harassment based on sex, and the Departments enforce Title IX accordingly. If sex-based harassment creates a hostile environment, the school must take prompt and effective steps to end the harassment, prevent its recurrence, and, as appropriate, remedy its effects.
​

If they allow individuals to opt out due to discomfort, that's well within the guidelines.

In many ways I think worrying too much about ogling or discomfort ignores the chance for a teaching opportunity. Heck, I've heard worries about gay people possible ogling in same-sex facilities. I think of it as just a bunch of hang ups.

 

[Planogirl]

How will this affect sports teams? Wouldn't someone like Caitlyn Jenner have a distinct size and strength advantage over most women that have always been women?

 

[Mrs. Ciz]

How will this affect sports teams? Wouldn't someone like Caitlyn Jenner have a distinct size and strength advantage over most women that have always been women?

Right? I was actually very surprised to see the part about sports teams! I saw a Dateline or 20/20 special on a young transgender man (girl parts) who swims on his university's boys' swim team. He would be winning meets with his times if he had continued swimming with the girls. On the boys team he usually comes in last or second to last. He is ok with that because it was his choice. But if the situation were reversed, a biological male swimming on the girls team would have a huge size and strength advantage.

The Olympics recently released some new guidelines for transgenders who compete. There are testosterone restrictions on biological men who identify as women and compete as women. Will the guidelines trickle down to the collegiate and high school levels?
http://www.outsports.com/2016/1/21/10812404/transgender-ioc-policy-new-olympics

 

[wvjules]

And?

 

[Mrs. Ciz]

And?

Just sharing...

 

[mamacatnv]

I have not read this whole thread but this issue is a complicated one. I have a transgendered family member who transitioned 20+ years ago. Not an easy road but looking back I cannot imagine her having to use the mens room when she was clearly dressed and identified as a female.

However, schools and school sports are going to become very complicated.
I think we are on the road to gender neutral restrooms and I'm ok with that but how do we interface this into male/female sports. Are we going to do away with the segregation? The girls would be at a clear disadvantage just based on physical differences.

Where does society draw the line and say it doesn't matter what gender you identify with, there are just some lines we should not cross? An anatomical male cannot be a member of the girls volleyball team or vice versa, what is so wrong with this?

 

[wvjules]

Just sharing...

My "and?" was to Planogirl

 

[bcla]

How will this affect sports teams? Wouldn't someone like Caitlyn Jenner have a distinct size and strength advantage over most women that have always been women?

Athletics. Title IX regulations permit a school to operate or sponsor sex-segregated athletics teams when selection for such teams is based upon competitive skill or when the activity involved is a contact sport. A school may not, however, adopt or adhere to requirements that rely on overly broad generalizations or stereotypes about the differences between transgender students and other students of the same sex (i.e., the same gender identity) or others’ discomfort with transgender students. Title IX does not prohibit age-appropriate, tailored requirements based on sound, current, and research-based medical knowledge about the impact of the students’ participation on the competitive fairness or physical safety of the sport.
​

So the law does allow for specific separation of those who might present some patent unfairness. Of course over the years there have been interesting cases such as Renee Richards (male to female sex change) at the US Open tennis tournament, and Caster Semaya, who is apparently intersex.

That being said, I have heard of some situations where there was no boy's sports and boys were allowed to play, with or without competitive restrictions thrown in. One was a field hockey team with boys. They were required to wear the standard skirts, and they were booed by opposing fans who thought their participation was unfair. I've also heard of a boy who played girls' volleyball since his HS didn't have a boys' team. He wasn't allowed to perform front row attacks, but he was apparently a strong back row attacker. He was also 5'6, which was shorter than many of the girls on his team.

 

[Mrs. Ciz]

My "and?" was to Planogirl

Got it.

 

[bcla]

I have not read this whole thread but this issue is a complicated one. I have a transgendered family member who transitioned 20+ years ago. Not an easy road but looking back I cannot imagine her having to use the mens room when she was clearly dressed and identified as a female.

However, schools and school sports are going to become very complicated.
I think we are on the road to gender neutral restrooms and I'm ok with that but how do we interface this into male/female sports. Are we going to do away with the segregation? The girls would be at a clear disadvantage just based on physical differences.

Where does society draw the line and say it doesn't matter what gender you identify with, there are just some lines we should not cross? An anatomical male cannot be a member of the girls volleyball team or vice versa, what is so wrong with this?

Segregation based on medical knowledge of competitive advantage is allowed under Title IX.

 

[Mrs. Ciz]

It is very complicated and delicate stuff - that's for sure!

 

[mamacatnv]

I had the bathroom/locker room discussion with DD a while back. DD is 17 and a high school Junior. She is part of what I refer to as the accept all generation. From the time she was very young, schools have taught absolute acceptance regardless of the issue. Kids IMO are much more accepting of others and their differences than they have ever been.

The funny thing about the bathroom/locker room issue (from DD's perspective) is that most of the kids don't have an issue, its their parents, those of us who are not part of the accept all generation. From my DD's perspective, the thought of an anatomical male who identifies as a female in her locker room doesn't bother her. She is very conscience of her use of pronouns when it comes to gender identity as are most of her friends. Several of her male friends have the same perspective regarding the bathrooms. These kids don't care, they accept differences and where someone chooses to pee is not a major blip on their radar. Their "uptight" parents see this as a much bigger issue than the kids do, according to my DD.

 

[damskipi13]

I had the bathroom/locker room discussion with DD a while back. DD is 17 and a high school Junior. She is part of what I refer to as the accept all generation. From the time she was very young, schools have taught absolute acceptance regardless of the issue. Kids IMO are much more accepting of others and their differences than they have ever been.

The funny thing about the bathroom/locker room issue (from DD's perspective) is that most of the kids don't have an issue, its their parents, those of us who are not part of the accept all generation. From my DD's perspective, the thought of an anatomical male who identifies as a female in her locker room doesn't bother her. She is very conscience of her use of pronouns when it comes to gender identity as are most of her friends. Several of her male friends have the same perspective regarding the bathrooms. These kids don't care, they accept differences and where someone chooses to pee is not a major blip on their radar. Their "uptight" parents see this as a much bigger issue than the kids do, according to my DD.

This ^^^^^
I keep hearing people say "but what about the kids???? They'll never understand!" In my experience, the kids aren't the ones with the problem

 

[DisneyOma]

You said that you have walked in on students in the bathroom doing improper things and implied that this will make it worse. So how is that not about anything I mentioned? (the second part of my post wasn't about your comment) The President can't do anything to expect high schoolers to behave correctly. That is not his job. Its the job of the school to make sure of that.

No, it's the job of the parents. It ends up being the job of the school because some parents don't do a good enough job, IMO.

You are correct in that I do not give high school students any credit. Elementary is a totally different situation. Having said that, by working with the elementary age, it will definitely help when transitioning to the secondary level. I am more concerned with the secondary level and the short term impact. This is what I mean by a methodical, well thought out process.

Please understand I am not talking about denying rights. I am talking about high school students being asked to make changes that they may not be able to do quickly, or with good understanding.

The kids I've worked with (20+ years) adapt much faster than the teachers or administration adapt. It's the old fogies who have a hard time dealing with change. The kids know all about it already, and don't see it as an issue.

I saw this too today. He is not just talking about bathrooms either. I read that he says school bathrooms, locker rooms and showers (and sports teams) need to be open for transgenders to choose the one they identify with or the schools will lose all federal funding. It's not like anonymous public toilets where no one knows who actually has which parts. High school kids know. I worry about a transgender with girl parts changing and showering in the boys locker room. I think that puts the transgender person at great risk. I also think that the transgender person with boy parts may make the girls who have to shower and change with her very uncomfortable. At this point I worry that the rights of a few are stomping on the rights of many.

They all have the same rights - and they can choose to be in the locker room or not. The few are not stomping on the many.

BTW, every girls' locker room I've been in has had individual shower stalls. I asked the high school boys I work with, and they said only one school in our division has a group shower in the boys' locker room. Our teams tend to come back to our school to shower/change for the most part anyways.