TOT Incident on News

[quantumottle]

I was full of anger and disgust watching the news video, I couldn't help but think of my daughters or wife in this situation, but then....

... we get to the part of the video toward the end where she started saying how Disney could have prevented this with more security etc. Ouch!

I believe this happened, I honestly do, but at that point in the video I couldn't help but get the feeling she'll be threatening to file suit against Disney soon (with a nice out of court settlement check to boot).

Sorry if this opinion makes me a bad person, I wasn't thinking anything negative about the victim at all, until that portion of the video.

 

[Rosanne]

All I know is, most molesters, flashers etc. count on people blaming the victim. It happened to me in college with one of my professors. I was selected by the faculty to be the first student in what was supposed to be a fabulous mentoring program in advertising... working with a professor who was also an exec in an ad company. Loooooong story short, he progressively crossed the line despite my clearly telling him to stop. He also threatened me that he had powerful people to wipe me out if I told. I did tell and he had a high-powered lawyer and I had myself as a poor college student. We went before the board and basically I was told I was a liar as there was no proof. I took an incomplete because I would have been forced to continue with this man. Several months later I was called back into the dean's office with a slight apology as there had since been two separate reports of similar behavior on other students. Had I not reported mine, or the next woman reported hers, the third woman would have not been believed. It was hell sitting in that room being told I was making the stuff up as there was no "proof". Of course there wasn't. He made sure of it.

Sadly, the university didn't actually fire him. They gave him leave with pay and hired another teacher to replace him. I'm sure there is nothing on his record and he has gone on to teach elsewhere. Meanwhile, I did not complete my degree in advertising and changed to teaching. I was too drained from the experience to go back in and face the rest of the faculty and students that knew all the details. I had been firm with him, saying no, moving his hands and all but because I wasn't actually raped and it was his word against mine at the time and the board acted as if I had made it all up so I wouldn't have to finish my mentoring program. He even told them that I was making it up so I wouldn't have to finish assignments.... me, a straight A student.

Anyway, that's why someone would hesitate to report something. The backlash. And, here it is again.

 

[Rosanne]

That said, I don't think Disney increasing security is the answer. Yes, it would have been nice if she could have somehow handled it immediately but no doubt she was targeted because it was just her and her daughter... easy pickin's. Also, there is a heck of a lot of stimuli on that ride which probably makes rational thought more difficult. I think the picture is pretty revealing and I am glad she has made it public. At least if something happens again, someone may recognize him. People like him prey on people that they do not think will blow the whistle.

 

[mom2taylorandemily]

After having DH and I both watch the video of the newsclip, this whole thing sounds like a setup. Sorry if I offend anyone. My first thought was, why wasn't she smacking the snot out of him. If anyone had grabbed my breast I'd have at least said something rude to him. Furthermore, why was the daughter telling the story about showing the mom's engagement ring just strikes set up to me. I know I'm going to take some heat here, so I'm donning the Flame Suit. But I'm always skeptical and I'm female. But I know what I'd have done, had it been me and it was real.

Ok Flame Suit is on.

 

[Peace.love.mickey]

After having DH and I both watch the video of the newsclip, this whole thing sounds like a setup. Sorry if I offend anyone. My first thought was, why wasn't she smacking the snot out of him. If anyone had grabbed my breast I'd have at least said something rude to him. Furthermore, why was the daughter telling the story about showing the mom's engagement ring just strikes set up to me. I know I'm going to take some heat here, so I'm donning the Flame Suit. But I'm always skeptical and I'm female. But I know what I'd have done, had it been me and it was real.

I though the same thing...but heck you never know, right?!?!? I keep going back to the fact that she took a darn pic with her cell phone before telling anyone...

 

[larryz]

I've been on the ToT where people on either side of me grabbed my arms and locked their legs around mine out of sheer fright. It was obvious to me that they were scared out of their wits, and I let it go.

This is clearly not that kind of situation. The lech in the hat has clearly reached across the aisle, and the lady in question no doubt is having trouble processing what just happened.

That said, and although I believe her, I think she's being a bit too delicate about the whole thing. Extra security at the ride would not have helped, because she waited too long to identify the problem to the ride operators.

There's someone at unload -- that would have been the person to tell, and point to the creep and suggest they hold him in place.

I would have yelled "don't unlock!" or "STOP THAT GUY" and let the @nus sit there until security showed up.

Yeah, hindsight and all that -- but blaming Disney for lax security in this case is a red herring, and I'd bet she's already contacted a lawyer...

 

[kaytieeldr]

What concerns me more is if the guy knew when the lights were going out, chances are he's ridden the ride before, and who knows how many times?

Respectfully, and not excusing any illegal behavior - if simply riding an attraction multiple times and knowing what happens can be used as evidence in or strong suspicion of a crime... thousands and thousands of us could be considered guilty, while actually being entirely innocent (of everything except, perhaps, Disney parks obsession )

Well, to begin with, I certainly wouldn't be caught on camera leering at and trying to touch a stranger.

Which brings up a point that's been bothering me - WHY was that picture taken??? It's one thing if it's a snapshot from a security camera (i.e. used so CMs can monitor attraction vehicles for safety), but if it was just a photograph? With the lights on? With everyone sitting relatively calmly?

My experience with ToT photographs is that they're taken with the lights out and the elevator door open, many stories above the ground, with Guests screaming and/or with their arms flung in the air,,, and perhaps even some anti-gravity indications. This is not that picture - so, why was it taken?

Looking at the picture again, I do see some people smiling or laughing; the guy on the front right even appears to have his arms in the air (although it doesn't appear anyone else in the elevator does). Interestingly, aside from Esquivel's shocked expression, the only other 'not happy' expression on camera is her daughter's. Is it possible even in her shock, she still had time - before the picture was taken - to tell her daughter she was groped? Really?

We haven't convincted anyone

But I haven't seen anyone question that it didn't happen. Everybody is taking Esquivel's word that it (something) did, and who the perpetrator is.

But, the guy looks creepy

This is the second (at least) post indicating that the man's appearance somehow indicates he's guilty. Would everybody be more generous/less judgmental if the Guest looked like George Clooney or Leonardo DeCaprio?

Yes the photos are only up for everyone to see for a few minutes

But, again, this doesn't appear to be "that" photo.

And sorry, nope, that picture of you with a stunned faced and the alleged groper's outstretched claw towards you is worth crap

She could have, almost as easily, been screaming uncontrollably after everyone else on the ride had stopped and he was just reaching out to pat her on the arm and reassure her.

You have to look at this from all sides. Suppose someone thought it would, for whatever reason, be amusing/empowering/good retribution to accuse someone of a lewd act on a ride when there was nothing but that person's word to support it?

So...just to be clear...are you saying she should just let this incident go?

Not at all. DizMe is saying - maybe nothing happened.

What if they find him and it turns out that he's a registered sex offender?

Or, the far more likely possibility, based solely on statistics - if they find him and he's NOT a registered sex offender? What if he never actually touched this woman - yet in the Court of the DIS, he's not only already been found guilty, now he's been given a record of past behavior.

Glad it's unlikely any of you would ever serve on a jury when I'd be on trial...

Lots and lots of people are convicted of and sentenced to prison on nothing but circumstantial evidence. There are convicted murderers on death row that have been put there by circumstantial evidence. You just never know.

And it's been discovered later that some of them are - can you believe it - NOT guilty. As for death row murderers, well, even some of them are actually innocent (the problem with circumstantial evidence - and an outstretched arm and a 'creepy' appearance don't even meet those shaky standards) - and VERY, VERY few of them die of anything BUT natural causes.

 

[FlameGirl]

Much of what you've quoted me as saying you've taken completely out of context. I'd point it out and continue this debate, but frankly, I'm pretty tired of repeating myself so have fun as this thread continues.

 

[whatRUcelebrating]

What an idiot that guy is. It's awesome there is a photo and she isn't afraid to publicize it. Hope they locate him.

 

[indigirl]

I hope they find this guy soon

 

[pixiewings71]

If you read the this article it says she DID take it with her cell phone.....

Thanks for the link, I hadn't seen that article (computer crashed this weekend, just got it fixed yesterday) and it does say she took a photo of the photo with her camera.

The message here should be - shout at the top of your lungs at the time this type of thing happens. These creeps operate in darkness and are counting on anonymity...And, DO make a scene. Not because it's easy, but because it's difficult.

You may be saving the next victim a similar fate.

As the father of two young girls, not only would I step in to help, I'd be grateful for your courage.

Yes, that should be the first step, but remember on rides like this EVERYone is screaming so just screaming won't help much. Of course if you're still screaming or screaming "stop that man" after the ride is over that would probably help.

guess from now on when I go on a ride at DL or DCA I will make sure not to laugh, smile or clap during or at the end of a ride....
I still believe that if you were violated, you would react immediately...
I am pretty sure my wife or my two grown daughters would...

You have NO idea what your wife or 2 DD's would do! I've said it before and I say it now. NO ONE knows HOW they will react UNTIL IT HAPPENS to them. Trust me, it's happened to me and you absolutely do not know what you will do until it does happen to you.

I can totally see that that would be me if in that sort of situation.

NO ONE knows how they would act in any certain situation until it happens to you! To say with certainty that you would do such and such doesn't mean that is what you would actually end up doing when it comes right down to it.

Exactly what I've been trying to tell people......

Respectfully, and not excusing any illegal behavior - if simply riding an attraction multiple times and knowing what happens can be used as evidence in or strong suspicion of a crime... thousands and thousands of us could be considered guilty, while actually being entirely innocent (of everything except, perhaps, Disney parks obsession )

Which brings up a point that's been bothering me - WHY was that picture taken??? It's one thing if it's a snapshot from a security camera (i.e. used so CMs can monitor attraction vehicles for safety), but if it was just a photograph? With the lights on? With everyone sitting relatively calmly?

My experience with ToT photographs is that they're taken with the lights out and the elevator door open, many stories above the ground, with Guests screaming and/or with their arms flung in the air,,, and perhaps even some anti-gravity indications. This is not that picture - so, why was it taken?

Looking at the picture again, I do see some people smiling or laughing; the guy on the front right even appears to have his arms in the air (although it doesn't appear anyone else in the elevator does). Interestingly, aside from Esquivel's shocked expression, the only other 'not happy' expression on camera is her daughter's. Is it possible even in her shock, she still had time - before the picture was taken - to tell her daughter she was groped? Really?

But I haven't seen anyone question that it didn't happen. Everybody is taking Esquivel's word that it (something) did, and who the perpetrator is.

This is the second (at least) post indicating that the man's appearance somehow indicates he's guilty. Would everybody be more generous/less judgmental if the Guest looked like George Clooney or Leonardo DeCaprio?

But, again, this doesn't appear to be "that" photo.

She could have, almost as easily, been screaming uncontrollably after everyone else on the ride had stopped and he was just reaching out to pat her on the arm and reassure her.

Not at all. DizMe is saying - maybe nothing happened.

Or, the far more likely possibility, based solely on statistics - if they find him and he's NOT a registered sex offender? What if he never actually touched this woman - yet in the Court of the DIS, he's not only already been found guilty, now he's been given a record of past behavior.

Glad it's unlikely any of you would ever serve on a jury when I'd be on trial...

And it's been discovered later that some of them are - can you believe it - NOT guilty. As for death row murderers, well, even some of them are actually innocent (the problem with circumstantial evidence - and an outstretched arm and a 'creepy' appearance don't even meet those shaky standards) - and VERY, VERY few of them die of anything BUT natural causes.

When you quote someone you should quote the whole post, not just pieces. You've taken what I've said OUT of context as well, go back and read my posts, how many times did I say "he said/she said" and we have NO proof but I hope they find the guy and question him? My first post said "what a creep, I hope they find him" not that he was guilty, not that I thought he was guilty that I thought he was a creep and I hope they find him, my 3rd (I think) post said he looks creepy, because he DOES look creepy!!!! It's MY opinion and I'm free to post it. I haven't convicted him of anything but I have every right to post MY opinion, just as you do. I still think anyone that would do that is a creep, just as I would think if she's lying she's a creep!

 

[DesertBell]

Here's the thing. The man may be guilty, he may not; but most women who are sexually assaulted or harrassed don't report it, and even those who are telling the truth have a hard time being believed. What the picture shows is the woman with an unhappy look on her face, and a man, his arm halfway across the aisle, grinning. Clearly SOMETHING happened, and the man should be questioned either way. It is NOT a good precedent to only take sexual assault seriously if there is dna evidence or physical damage.

My thing is- as a woman- I think she's kind of overreacting. Yes, her space was violated in a sexual manner. She was NOT raped, and there is a wide expanse between the two. I have had my breasts and my butt grabbed, been flashed, and had really inappropriate things said to me. I know how uncomfortable, angry, and even ashamed those things can make you feel. Still, there's a big difference between that and rape, and saying that she's never going to be able to feel the same way about Disney kind of strikes me as overdramatic. I mean, it's not like Mickey was the one who did it.

I guess everyone is different, and maybe she's just more sensitive than I am, but that's how I see it.

 

[Kayla's Mom]

My thing is- as a woman- I think she's kind of overreacting. Yes, her space was violated in a sexual manner. She was NOT raped, and there is a wide expanse between the two. I have had my breasts and my butt grabbed, been flashed, and had really inappropriate things said to me. I know how uncomfortable, angry, and even ashamed those things can make you feel. Still, there's a big difference between that and rape, and saying that she's never going to be able to feel the same way about Disney kind of strikes me as overdramatic. I mean, it's not like Mickey was the one who did it.

I guess everyone is different, and maybe she's just more sensitive than I am, but that's how I see it.

You have a right to your opinion, but I totally disagree. Disneyland is my favorite place and to have something like that happen to me there would most definitely change my feeling of it.

 

[kaytieeldr]

Much of what you've quoted me as saying you've taken completely out of context. I'd point it out and continue this debate, but frankly, I'm pretty tired of repeating myself so have fun as this thread continue

When you quote someone you should quote the whole post, not just pieces. You've taken what I've said OUT of context as well,

My sincere apologies to both of you. I tend to NOT quote entire posts (bandwidth/it seems a waste to me to repeat and repeat and repeat entire posts, and this is my GENERAL, PERMANENT opinion - no reflection on either of you or anything you posted). Instead, I do my best to quote only the exact statement/s to which I'm responding.

In addition, without going back and rereading the entire thread, it's extremely likely that other posters echoed each of your statements (or thoughts) to which I responded; I just saw each of yours first, and so quoted those.

pixiewings, frankly, rereading what I quoted from your post and what I responded, it makes no sense to ME!!!!

Again, I apologize to both of you, and to anyone else who reads my responses the way the two quoted posters did (i.e. anyone who feels I'm wrong )

 

[FlameGirl]

My sincere apologies to both of you. I tend to NOT quote entire posts (bandwidth/it seems a waste to me to repeat and repeat and repeat entire posts, and this is my GENERAL, PERMANENT opinion - no reflection on either of you or anything you posted). Instead, I do my best to quote only the exact statement/s to which I'm responding.

In addition, without going back and rereading the entire thread, it's extremely likely that other posters echoed each of your statements (or thoughts) to which I responded; I just saw each of yours first, and so quoted those.

pixiewings, frankly, rereading what I quoted from your post and what I responded, it makes no sense to ME!!!!

Again, I apologize to both of you, and to anyone else who reads my responses the way the two quoted posters did (i.e. anyone who feels I'm wrong )

Hey, I totally respect and appreciate that. Thank you.

 

[ashpinoza]

to start off, it COULD be true, but people are so quick to jump to thinking it is true that they dont realize it could also be FAKE. people do things like this all the time. for attention, for money all kinds of things. but thats not saying it DIDNT happen. simple fact is no one can know. thats the sad and scary thing. some men, DO get in trouble for things they did not do. and many dont get caught for things they did do. so its really hard to say. but if we look at some things to investigate here it can help. first, something like that, its not rape, he grabed her body. it was her breast. so would she freak out about her arm? just saying, its something that should not be done and he should be punished if its true, however it would not and should not, change the way you "feel" about going to disneyland. i find the part where she is majorly bashing disney in the issue a bit disturbing almost like she is trying to set up a presentation to sue disney for not having good security or something. especially being that i dont think any different security measures would help. would she say that if it was a water park, a super busy mall or something? it would be the same deal. someone can disappear out of sight and someone should KNOW that from common sense! also kinda strange she took a pic with her phone. i can tell ya i woulda purchased one so i had a full size surefire copy. isnt it kinda funny how the camera took the pic at the PERFECT time. didnt think they took pics when the lights were on either thats a little strange but whatever. she also said she PUSHED his hand away in a couple news posts, and in another couple says he quickly pulled it away when the lights came on. NOW, we allllll know that when people are making something up the story doesnt add and things will change. i also think it strange her daughter is also the only person not smiling on the ride besides her. also the engagement ring thing was a little too much i think. it sounded very fake to me. ALSO if you felt someone was staring and watching you outside why would you not bring it to the attention of a disney cm. if i felt someone looking at me inappropriately, i would say something. and the biggest part that makes it seem either fake or set up to me? she is over reacting. period. it was not rape. i mean, seriously over reacting. and it seems she is trying to put on a show for the camera. trying to cry. and her words as well. if it did happen no doubt the man needs to be punished, however, it seems like she is purpously trying to grab excessive media and push it as far as she can. so all that being said, perhaps she is just super sensitive, but another thought, she doesnt look it. also, this happened to be a trip without her fiance? good timing id say. true or false. we cant know. so since so many people wanted to go on the true side of this and put out all that info and supporting facts, i just decided to point out the other side. i cant say what i believe more. but im leaning toward maybe it DID happen but she is reacting purpously for mega attention so she can further take it to a lawsuit level with disney. or maybe its ALL set up for that reason. who knows...

 

[pixiewings71]

My sincere apologies to both of you. I tend to NOT quote entire posts (bandwidth/it seems a waste to me to repeat and repeat and repeat entire posts, and this is my GENERAL, PERMANENT opinion - no reflection on either of you or anything you posted). Instead, I do my best to quote only the exact statement/s to which I'm responding.

In addition, without going back and rereading the entire thread, it's extremely likely that other posters echoed each of your statements (or thoughts) to which I responded; I just saw each of yours first, and so quoted those.

pixiewings, frankly, rereading what I quoted from your post and what I responded, it makes no sense to ME!!!!

Again, I apologize to both of you, and to anyone else who reads my responses the way the two quoted posters did (i.e. anyone who feels I'm wrong )

Hey, I totally respect and appreciate that. Thank you.

 

[kaytieeldr]

Hey, I totally respect and appreciate that. Thank you.

Oh, good - so you're going to stick around, right? Because you make a lot of sense, and it'd be a shame if I chased anyone away!

 

[FlameGirl]

That's kind of you. Do you mean from DIS in general or this thread? DIS = no way...I have a much thicker skin than that.

This thread? Honestly...I don't have much more to contribute that I haven't already said...I'd just be repeating myself at this point. I will still enjoy reading it though and there's always the chance someone will say something that I absolutely have to respond to.