Top of the World Lounge at Bay Lake Tower at Contemporary Resort - *2 New Parties Added! “Enchantment at the Top” & New “Bound to Be Bad” Dates Added

[Paul Stupin]

Great point but at the same time you see lots of members comment that the general public doesn’t even know too much about the resale process or buying resale. So all the people saying that dvd needs to have these different tiers cannot have it both ways saying that most buyers aren’t aware of resale but that dvd needs to have different tiers to help avoid resale purchases.

I don’t think it’s DVC’s responsibility to educate new buyers on the specifics of the resale market. Shouldn’t it be up to each individual buyer to research the product?

 

[Sandisw]

Great point but at the same time you see lots of members comment that the general public doesn’t even know too much about the resale process or buying resale. So all the people saying that dvd needs to have these different tiers cannot have it both ways saying that most buyers aren’t aware of resale but that dvd needs to have different tiers to help avoid resale purchases.

Many don’t know about resale, that part is true, but because DVD has made the products different, they now get to market it that way and highlight all you get when buying with them.

Take TOTWl…DVD gets to say that exclusive access to the lounge comes with the membership extras program, which you only get buying at least 150 points from then.

It means they get to nip the conversation about resale before it even has a chance to start. And if it does, then DVD has the answer of why someone should buy from then.

But, look at all the people who are on these boards who do…and as long as difference exist, DVD has the upper hand.

So, DVD does get to have it both ways because for anyone who discovers resale either after buying, or during the buying process, learns there are differences.

Obviously, plenty for people go resale even knowing you dont get perks and have restricted points.…DVD can’t ever stop that…but that is not the same as not trying to stack the deck in their favor so when or if asked, they can say you get more when you buy from them,

 

[Liquidice]

I never indicated anything to the contrary? I've never paid much attention to what DVD says about the resale value on contracts.

Sorry I thought based on your comment that "You were commenting that car manufacturers tout the resale value of their cars, and why doesn't DVC do the same." that someone in the thread was trying to say DVC doesn't try to tout resale value as a selling point and I was agreeing with you that they do tout the resale value. May have misunderstood.

 

[DonMacGregor]

Sorry I thought based on your comment that "You were commenting that car manufacturers tout the resale value of their cars, and why doesn't DVC do the same." that someone in the thread was trying to say DVC doesn't try to tout resale value as a selling point and I was agreeing with you that they do tout the resale value. May have misunderstood.

One of you owes me two aspirins.

 

[Jenglish13]

One of you owes me two aspirins.

LOL! To be fair, I should probably contribute to the aspirin budget too!

 

[hilltopper152]

Yup, I honestly I wouldn't care at all if I owned resale elsewhere.

Or if they restricted some lounge with great animal views at AKV I wouldn't care one bit as a non AKV owner.

Sandisw seems to be the resident expert on the legal aspects of the contracts and I don't doubt for a second that we've never had contractual rights to the space, but it just struck me as a sort of common sense expectation that all owners/members/paying guests would have access to the features of a given resort. Maybe our frame of reference is wrong that we see totwl as part of BLT but it's really just a Disney asset to do with as they wish. Disney can do what they want with it and we can feel how we like (and piss & moan!) about it. It's not a right or wrong thing, it's subjective.

Others may tell us we shouldn't feel this way or that we should've seen it coming, but it seems small and petty and spiteful to me. I mean does including all BLT owners and paying guests really detract from what they're trying to accomplish? It's not enough to say blue card members from any resort have access along with BLT owners of any kind? Would that really take the shine away from the perk? This is why I keep making the jokes about being second class unwashed trash! As if our very presence would ruin the experience for the Disney nobility!

No offense to them as they have educated us and I on the legal side but the average owner and guest is not in these forums. Ads for the resort show beautiful photos from aerial views and mention the top lounge. I would say it's safe to say most buyers view a resort and think they can utilize amenities. Trying to explain the rules doesn't remedy the natural expectations in place by the mass. I'm okay with being a lesser member due to my purchase price but do feel the TOWL is a vital piece of what makes the resort what it is. The exclusiveness they want is okay and maybe hard to do if they just let regular guest go but guest services will have a fun time for two years explaining to staying guest they can't go pay $16 for a watered down old fashion because they don't have the right card color on the app they don't fully understand lol. I do think these clubs are a good idea but launching it here first after having it just seems like a petty act. That feeling won't just go away with a simple explanation of why they can do it.

 

[hilltopper152]

I look at it like this. I go on Stubhub and buy 4 tix to the Met game. The section I am, comes with access to “xyz” club. It doesn’t matter that I bought the ticket resale or direct. I still get access.

That’s how DVC should be. IMO. I bought direct. But if I sold my contract tomorrow, the new owner is buying my contact. Why should anything change for them? It’s nonsense.

In the end this is my thought. My dues and contract are the same. The truth is direct is just easier to acquire and that alone is hard to market versus the difference in cost so perks are needed to formulate more differences. This argument cannot be won because in the end DVC needs to force a reason for there to be a markup so they have to slight a resale contract somehow besides naturally it being harder to acquire.

 

[xdan0920]

Apparently some don't care about restrictions or perks, until they do...

I’m direct. None of this impacts me negatively. I just don’t like having a lower class of DVC members. Rubs me the wrong way.

 

[hilltopper152]

Reflecting on this, this was unnecessarily snarky, and I apologize.

It would be better to put it this way: DVD does not consider existing owners to be customers, except to the extent that they might buy more points from Disney. Yes, there is some money to be made from the management contract, and DVD would prefer it if fewer Members tried to sell their ownership interests. But, in the grand scheme of things, those concerns are a distant second place to "how do we sell more points?"

We aren't new customers for sure but we are here and can make selling harder for them when negative remarks are made about the product. If they punish resale contracts too much they are inevitably hurting the validation for how high prices the product is direct. Knowing money can be recouped surely props up the price for many. Most people spend $30k with some thought to their financial outlay.

 

[Sandisw]

I’m direct. None of this impacts me negatively. I just don’t like having a lower class of DVC members. Rubs me the wrong way.

And it think it’s fair position to have, even if you weren’t eligible

People can be angry and disappointed about the direction DVD has chosen to go. And that is a great topic for discussion.

I don’t think there is anyone here who doesn’t understand that disappointment. I certainly do even though I am not bothered one way or the other by the resale vs direct situation.

 

[Sandisw]

We aren't new customers for sure but we are here and can make selling harder for them when negative remarks are made about the product. If they punish resale contracts too much they are inevitably hurting the validation for how high prices the product is direct. Knowing money can be recouped surely props up the price for many. Most people spend $30k with some thought to their financial outlay.

But will it? Will there really be a lot of people who forgo direct if what it has to offer is a benefit for them, because of something like this? I can’t see it but who knows. .

I personally never advise people to use resale value as part of the decision. We did not. It’s too unpredictable.

But I also agree a healthy resale market can help people decide to buy in and has been a big plus for DVC. I just don’t think it is or ever was something that DVD promoted. That’s why the put it all over the POS not to buy with that in mind. T

On the flip side, if resale slides, because direct appears to be so much better of a product, it could end up doing what DVD wants,,get people to buy without thinking about resale later on.

ETA. We do know DVD had to increase incentives this month to help with sales so they are obviously aware that at some price point, direct isn’t going to sell as well as they want.

 

[hilltopper152]

It is now very clear DVC is changing direction from building new resorts to acquire money but rather mastering flipping contracts and turning profit on small extensions.
Infrastructure for another Saratoga Springs is pricey and slow but now they can add a lower investment tower on popular grounds and make a profit. They can flip older resorts. Convert a garden wing at contemporary next. It's much easier to do that then create new ideas and build it out when land is short.

Hope Disney transportation can keep up with this though... Looking at you Poly and the monorail.

 

[Sandisw]

It is now very clear DVC is changing direction from building new resorts to acquire money but rather mastering flipping contracts and turning profit on small extensions.
Infrastructure for another Saratoga Springs is pricey and slow but now they can add a lower investment tower on popular grounds and make a profit. They can flip older resorts. Convert a garden wing at contemporary next. It's much easier to do that then create new ideas and build it out when land is short.

Hope Disney transportation can keep up with this though... Looking at you Poly and the monorail.

That issue with the monorail is going to be a big one. They are going to have to increase the boat transportation for both Poly and Grand to MK to accommodate it all.

 

[Jenglish13]

I’m direct. None of this impacts me negatively. I just don’t like having a lower class of DVC members. Rubs me the wrong way.

I really appreciate this sentiment. It goes to my point as well about allowing all BLT owners and even paying resort guests access too. I can understand their motive and restricting non blue card members that aren't staying at the resort, but does allowing others staying there really detract from the perk at all? They can still use it as a selling point for direct sales. Why should your enjoyment of a thing depend upon the exclusion of other paying guests?

 

[hilltopper152]

But will it? Will there really be a lot of people who forgo direct if what it has to offer is a benefit for them, because of something like this? I can’t see it but who knows. .

I personally never advise people to use resale value as part of the decision. We did not. It’s too unpredictable.

But I also agree a healthy resale market can help people decide to buy in and has been a big plus for DVC. I just don’t think it is or ever was something that DVD promoted. That’s why the put it all over the POS not to buy with that in mind. T

On the flip side, if resale slides, because direct appears to be so much better of a product, it could end up doing what DVD wants,,get people to buy without thinking about resale later on.

Don't underestimate the savvy buyer... I know people buy $80k cars without second thoughts or over extend credit lines for the larger house but there is a large group of middle class families who think about every dollar they spend. Maybe it's not majority and emotion is something Disney milks for sure but there is thought behind these purchases that help us all validate the price.thsre is much nicer timeshare that charges less and has no value once you sign. Disney has a strong buyer market, unique product, and rofr that help keep prices up but most buyers will sell their contract before term so to ignore that is somewhat silly I think. I am not trying to insult anyone but I felt that mindset of ignoring cost per benefits and LT value is something a rich person or ignorant person would have. I bought mine personally with hopes of never selling and having years of fun with my newborn but life happens and it helped me sign papers once I did the math on break even with no benefits and that estimated disposal price dramatically moves the needle on "value" generated. I am a finance person but you don't need a degree to see how value can benefit the selling price. If resale market collapsed it would drastically hurt the direct market.... They would now have to hope their new buyers were ST minded or naive as it just doesn't work out where we all keep 45 year contracts in reality to term.

 

[Sandisw]

Don't underestimate the savvy buyer... I know people buy $80k cars without second thoughts or over extend credit lines for the larger house but there is a large group of middle class families who think about every dollar they spend. Maybe it's not majority and emotion is something Disney milks for sure but there is thought behind these purchases that help us all validate the price.thsre is much nicer timeshare that charges less and has no value once you sign. Disney has a strong buyer market, unique product, and rofr that help keep prices up but most buyers will sell their contract before term so to ignore that is somewhat silly I think. I am not trying to insult anyone but I felt that mindset of ignoring cost per benefits and LT value is something a rich person or ignorant person would have. I bought mine personally with hopes of never selling and having years of fun with my newborn but life happens and it helped me sign papers once I did the math on break even with no benefits and that estimated disposal price dramatically moves the needle on "value" generated. I am a finance person but you don't need a degree to see how value can benefit the selling price. If resale market collapsed it would drastically hurt the direct market.... They would now have to hope their new buyers were ST minded or naive as it just doesn't work out where we all keep 45 year contracts in reality to term.

I think that is what DVD will need to figure out in the end. So far, they believe that having a product different from resale is working and I think this move matched what the rumors are with a paid program to give more exclusive spots for owners who qualify.

I definitely agree that no one is buying direct because they will get TOTWL and I think the resale market shows that many new buyers don’t care about missing the perks.

Maybe the reality is what you mention..it’s about the new direction and DVD cares only about the contract being sold. What happens after doesn’t matter…

However, let’s be careful not to think people buying direct are naive or ST minded.

Many are just as savvy as a resale buyer but find what direct offers to meet their needs better.

 

[Jenglish13]

I don’t think there is anyone here who doesn’t understand that disappointment.

Oh, there have been a couple that expressed exactly that sentiment.

I have to say though, you have a refreshingly straightforward and pragmatic take on things and you're practically a living encyclopedia on DVC knowledge! So thank you for your insights and contribution and moderating. I've learned a ton from you over on the ROFR board as well. Cheers!

 

[tjkraz]

The only part of your take that bothers me is the concept of resale as competition. Using the Mets tix analogy again, he's not competing with the Mets, he paid them for the product. It's now his to use or sell. Same with the car analogy too. I'm not competing with Toyota when I sell my used car. Most car manufacturers try to tout their resale values, why not DVC? Isn't that a big differentiator from other timeshares and major selling point for DVC?

Sure but the Mets still want to sell more tickets. A better analogy would be the Mets giving you free parking and a bobblehead when you buy tix direct from them.

If you buy club level tickets from a reseller, you still get access to the club level. Just like resale DVC owners have access to the pool and Community Hall. But Moonlight Magic isn’t an integral feature of DVC timeshare ownership any more so than a Francisco Lindor bobble head is linked to a game ticket.

Yes, you could poke holes in that analogy. I’ve yet to see a truly perfect analogy for timeshares. And it really doesn’t matter. DVC has structured things such that perks are only attached to their direct sales. Nothing we say or do will change that.

And frankly, the perks would be a lot more vanilla if they were not useful as a sales incentive. It’s not coincidence that the Epcot lounge and Moonlight Magic began in 2016 when the perk restrictions were first announced.

 

[Spivey378]

I’m looking forward to checking it out.

 

[Jenglish13]

Sure but the Mets still want to sell more tickets. A better analogy would be the Mets giving you free parking and a bobblehead when you buy tix direct from them.

If you buy club level tickets from a reseller, you still get access to the club level. Just like resale DVC owners have access to the pool and Community Hall. But Moonlight Magic isn’t an integral feature of DVC timeshare ownership any more so than a Francisco Lindor bobble head is linked to a game ticket.

Yes, you could poke holes in that analogy. I’ve yet to see a truly perfect analogy for timeshares. And it really doesn’t matter. DVC has structured things such that perks are only attached to their direct sales. Nothing we say or do will change that.

And frankly, the perks would be a lot more vanilla if they were not useful as a sales incentive. It’s not coincidence that the Epcot lounge and Moonlight Magic began in 2016 when the perk restrictions were first announced.

Yeah, I get it now. And I get the EPCOT lounge restriction because opening that up to all DVC members likely would kill the value of the thing. But taking away totwl access from BLT owners and paying guests is the hill I guess I'll die on! I just think it's wrong and cheap and petty and offers no extra benefit other than to feel special and superior and exclusive. Why can't DVD just say hey as an extra perk you get access to totwl and leave it at that? Is someone gonna go resale instead of direct if they find out BLT owners are also allowed?

ETA - By the way, what exactly is moonlight magic and how is it different from extended evening or whatever all deluxe guests get? I understand you can enter the park without a ticket after a certain hour right? what else is involved?