Top of the World Lounge at Bay Lake Tower at Contemporary Resort - *2 New Parties Added! “Enchantment at the Top” & New “Bound to Be Bad” Dates Added

[john7994]

Yes! That's us all the way around! We got both types of points so I feel like I have a foot planted firmly in each camp.

And it does remove "mouth-breather" status as well.

 

[Jenglish13]

Most of what you have said seems limited to the scope of your situation.


Sharing a different perspective doesn’t mean that someone has been “triggered.”

DVC isn’t a one-size-fits-all product. Resort preference, contract size, use years, contract length, intended usage patterns and many other factors all play a role in determining the best path for each buyer. Resale does tend to be cheaper—though we could have an interesting side discussion about VGF circa March 2022. Whether or not the added value offsets the cost is a decision every buyer must make. And the math varies greatly depending upon what the buyer wants vs the current state of the resale market.

On several occasions, I’ve applauded the fact that you found the right path for yourself. Not sure why you seem so determined to tell others that they’re doing it wrong. Until you accept that the formula varies from buyer-to-buyer, we probably don’t have much common ground to continue.


An example which doesn’t translate to every resort or contract size equally.

"Not sure why you seem so determined to tell others that they’re doing it wrong."

This is why I say trigger. This isn't my intention at all. But I'm apparently triggering this reaction in some and for that I apologize. I'm very new here and to all this and trying to learn. And I've learned far more on these boards than I have elsewhere, Disney marketing included! I'm trying to understand the value of direct and now I realize that for me as a new BLT owner there simply is none and that frustrates me. (Again, I want the perks and benefits and currently have no reasonable access to them) But yeah, is what it is. I don't think I ever said, and certainly never intended to say, that there was no value for others. And what has finally just now clicked in my head is that I'm brand new and it seems most of you have been at this for years and have probably seen many different offers and promotions come and go. I hope one comes along that makes sense for me and we can have a drink together at tofwl!

 

[wnielsen1]

On a more serious note, what happens to my BLT resale points if/when I purchase an additional 150 points direct with DVC? Does my entire membership get the benefits of unrestricted resort choice or only the points specifically bought direct?

Your BLT resale points cannot be used for Riviera reservations (and presumably newer resorts that get built). Buying direct points won't change that unless they change the rules. They could run a promotion that buying X points direct will convert a certain number of resale points to direct points. They haven't done it, but they've reserved the right to do it under the Riviera documentation.

 

[Sandisw]

That's a good one but a little bit of a cheap shot! Taking away access from a venue within a resort you own is a little different. Welcome Home! Oh, sorry not you, you're not welcome here, get back downstairs where you belong with the rest of the drooling mouth-breathers!

The loss of totwl itself is not the big deal, it's the principle. And besides, as had been pointed out, there's really nothing left to take away now anyway. Yes I know they can legally. It's funny how most who've retained access find nothing wrong with the move and those who've lost access have a problem with it. Kudos to those of you who've retained access and still have the ability empathize with us pee ons who've not.

But you do make a great point about restrictions not mattering until they do. I doubt the loss of totwl moves the needle much for most. But maybe over time there will be a cumulative effect. Or maybe it will matter in 2042. I guess I'll have to invest all my savings from resale so I can afford direct in 2042!
I'll be honest I am a little jealous, I want access to everything too I just need a fairly reasonable value proposition to do it. I hope eventually it does make sense for me.

On a more serious note, what happens to my BLT resale points if/when I purchase an additional 150 points direct with DVC? Does my entire membership get the benefits of unrestricted resort choice or only the points specifically bought direct?

There are two things that come in to play. Membership extras...blue card...have to do only with incidental benefits like discounts, TOTWL, etc. Where points can be used is part of the rules for trading within BVTC...it has nothing to do with membership extra benefits.

So, if you buy 150 points direct, you will be now eligible for membership extras. Those points will also qualify for stays everywhere. However, owning direct points doesn't change the status of the resale points...those will only be good at the L14, assuming you purchased them post 2019.

And, that 150 point contract that gets you membership extras can't be sold down the line...if you do, then to requalify, you'd have to meet the new criteria. For example, say you buy 150 today while the minimum for membership extras is 150. Next year, they raise it to 175. You then buy another 150 direct points, which gives you 300 points. Even though you were grandfathered in at 150, you must keep the contract that you bought when it was 150...the one bought when it was 175 would disqualify you and you'd need another 25 direct to get those membership extras again.

It can be confusing but the use of points is in no way tied to the blue card. You could by 50 points today from DVD and those points can be used at RIV, even though its not enough to get you membership extras.

I do think some of the comments could be because of the notion that as a BLT owner, and this being located in the building, it is somehow makes it different than any other DVC resort that others own, simply because the only ones restricted from access prior to this were cash guests.

But all DVC resorts have commercial spaces with rules on access. As I shared, even as direct owners who continue to enjoy this lounge, , we aren't entitled to it forever. If DVD decides to close up shop, we will be out of luck too.

 

[tjkraz]

Your BLT resale points cannot be used for Riviera reservations (and presumably newer resorts that get built). Buying direct points won't change that unless they change the rules. They could run a promotion that buying X points direct will convert a certain number of resale points to direct points. They haven't done it, but they've reserved the right to do it under the Riviera documentation.

Resale points also cannot be used for Disney cruises (including the members-only cruise), Adventures by Disney, non-DVC resort stays, etc. The resale vs direct designation of the points themselves never changes. Points that are ineligible for certain destinations remain so.

However, buying 150+ points direct does make the MEMBERSHIP eligible for all Membership Magic perks. The owners themselves would gain access to the lounges, Moonlight Magic, member cruise, special tours and activities, ticket discounts and all of the various % savings on dining, shopping, recreation, etc.

 

[Jenglish13]

Now that's funny, I don't care who you are!

It does ignore the fact that snooty blue card blue-bloods are also downstairs in the rooms next to the drooling mouth-breathers, as you described.

Yes we need a little more levity!!

Ick. I just hope they wash the sheets really well if you have to stay in a room previously occupied by one of us low lifes! Who knows what kind of disease you might catch!

 

[BeachClub2014]

Yes we need a little more levity!!

Maintaining one's sense of humor is definitely needed, at times, here at the DIS. Overall, this is a great place to research DVC, learn from others, and have some really interesting discussions.

 

[Jenglish13]

Maintaining one's sense of humor is definitely needed, at times, here at the DIS. Overall, this is a great place to research DVC, learn from others, and have some really interesting discussions.

Amen. It wouldn't be the first time I got overzealous in arguing my POV. Thanks to all for sharing your expertise and perspectives. It's 90 degrees out and my 4 year old daughter is itching for the pool. And it feels weird that I'm ignoring her while arguing about Disney on the internet when she's the reason I bought DVC in the first place! Farewell until the next controversy arises!

 

[Brian Noble]

Not sure why you seem so determined to tell others that they’re doing it wrong.

I often see "I did it this way" turned into "anyone who is sensible would do it this way" and sometimes "you are totally wrong to have not done it this way." This is a pretty common pattern--not just on the DISboards, or the internet generally, but in day-to-day life. I can't begin to speculate as to why it happens, but it is exceptionally common.

I wonder if it is just part of the human condition.

There’s no expectation that anyone will lose perk eligibility if the criteria changes again.

That's true. There's also no guarantee that they won't. It's the difference between playing the odds and knowing for sure.

(I'm painfully reminded of the undergraduate philosophy thought exercise: "How do you know the ground will hold you up the next time you step on it?")

 

[Brian Noble]

I just hope they wash the sheets really well if you have to stay in a room previously occupied by one of us low lifes! Who knows what kind of disease you might catch!

You think that's bad, what about those who use RCI or Interval to exchange in without ever buying in the first place---truly the unwashed masses.

 

[hilltopper152]

Speaking for myself, the only reason I'm upset is at the removal of a perk, which feels like an extra kick in the pants being a BLT owner. I don't think anything new being offered to the higher tier would upset me at all, like I said you all deserve it and much more. As someone else pointed out there's not much left to take away from us resale riff raff! Maybe if they can add more value to direct blue card status (or if they make direct pricing at sold out resorts more reasonable e.g. VGF) more of us will pursue it. Right now for new owners like me the value is not even remotely reasonable (again with the exception of VGF) hence my frustration at wanting to participate and upgrade but having no reasonable path.

They are so creative they give benefits by just reducing benefits of the others. I would legit consider direct for second contract if they create new perks that have unique value. It will always feel like a kick between the legs to BLT resale owners.

 

[dlam32]

There are two things that come in to play. Membership extras...blue card...have to do only with incidental benefits like discounts, TOTWL, etc. Where points can be used is part of the rules for trading within BVTC...it has nothing to do with membership extra benefits.

So, if you buy 150 points direct, you will be now eligible for membership extras. Those points will also qualify for stays everywhere. However, owning direct points doesn't change the status of the resale points...those will only be good at the L14, assuming you purchased them post 2019.

And, that 150 point contract that gets you membership extras can't be sold down the line...if you do, then to requalify, you'd have to meet the new criteria. For example, say you buy 150 today while the minimum for membership extras is 150. Next year, they raise it to 175. You then buy another 150 direct points, which gives you 300 points. Even though you were grandfathered in at 150, you must keep the contract that you bought when it was 150...the one bought when it was 175 would disqualify you and you'd need another 25 direct to get those membership extras again.

Can you help clarify? We have a direct poly contract from 2016 that qualifies for benefits based on the minimum at that time. We added-on direct on at RIV in January 2022 for 260 points but broke it up into three smaller contracts, all of them less than the 150 required minimum as of January 2022. If we sell our Poly contract that originally qualified for direct benefits in 2016, do we still qualify for direct benefits with the RIV contracts because we exceed the 150 required minimum? Or do you need to have at least 1 contract that is at least 150 direct points? Maybe the one contract with 150 direct points applies to new purchasers only.

As an aside, I think it is lame that current BLT resale owners who used to have TOWL access can not go up there. It would have been nice, not that anyone is accusing DVC of that, to have grandfathered in access for TOTWL to current BLT owners regardless of membership status as of X date. Beyond X date, only direct members have access. That is asking a lot of Disney tech support to be able to sort that out I guess.

 

[Sandisw]

Can you help clarify? We have a direct poly contract from 2016 that qualifies for benefits based on the minimum at that time. We added-on direct on at RIV in January 2022 for 260 points but broke it up into three smaller contracts, all of them less than the 150 required minimum as of January 2022. If we sell our Poly contract that originally qualified for direct benefits in 2016, do we still qualify for direct benefits with the RIV contracts because we exceed the 150 required minimum? Or do you need to have at least 1 contract that is at least 150 direct points? Maybe the one contract with 150 direct points applies to new purchasers only.

As an aside, I think it is lame that current BLT resale owners who used to have TOWL access can not go up there. It would have been nice, not that anyone is accusing DVC of that, to have grandfathered in access for TOTWL to current BLT owners regardless of membership status as of X date. Beyond X date, only direct members have access. That is asking a lot of Disney tech support to be able to sort that out I guess.

Since you bought a total of 260 RIV points in 2022, when the minimum is 150, you will remain qualified if you sell that original Poly contract. It is about the total bought at the time, not in one contract. Now, if you ever decide you want to sell any of the smaller contracts associated with RIV, you can't go below the 150 if you have indeed sold your Poly contract that was grandfathered into the perks.

I can not say I really understand why BLT resale owners would have priority to be grandfathered over all other DVC resale owners. Not sure why its location at BLT makes any difference.

In reality, plenty of DVC resorts have commercial spaces. It would be like SSR owners expecting to be allowed to dine at the Turf Club, even if Disney decided to make it exclusive for those who have golf memberships. Or DVC owners at RIV expecting to be let in to Toppolino's if Disney decided to make it an exclusive lounge and restaurant for CM's.

Sure, it was really nice that they had always kept it exclusive to DVC and not open to the public. And, I certainly get the disappointment for those who bought BLT thinking that access was guaranteed.

Now, what they could have decided, along with making it part of membership extras, was to allow anyone staying at BLT on a DVC membership, regardless of ownership, access to the lounge (the original rules). But, that would no longer make it exclusive, which defeats the purpose of this move...to tout it as something one can only get with a direct purchase.

ETA: Plus, I really believe the plan is to increase the number of lounges exclusive for DVC owners who have membership extras, and the reopening of TOTWL allowed them to make the move more easily then had it never closed in the first place.

 

[xdan0920]

I’m curious. Maybe I’ll start a poll too.

Does anyone support the Blue/White divide? I feel it would be informative to know.

 

[dlam32]

Since you bought a total of 260 RIV points in 2022, when the minimum is 150, you will remain qualified if you sell that original Poly contract. It is about the total bought at the time, not in one contract. Now, if you ever decide you want to sell any of the smaller contracts associated with RIV, you can't go below the 150 if you have indeed sold your Poly contract that was grandfathered into the perks.

I can not say I really understand why BLT resale owners would have priority to be grandfathered over all other DVC resale owners. Not sure why its location at BLT makes any difference.

In reality, plenty of DVC resorts have commercial spaces. It would be like SSR owners expecting to be allowed to dine at the Turf Club, even if Disney decided to make it exclusive for those who have golf memberships. Or DVC owners at RIV expecting to be let in to Toppolino's if Disney decided to make it an exclusive lounge and restaurant for CM's.

Sure, it was really nice that they had always kept it exclusive to DVC and not open to the public. And, I certainly get the disappointment for those who bought BLT thinking that access was guaranteed.

Now, what they could have decided, along with making it part of membership extras, was to allow anyone staying at BLT on a DVC membership, regardless of ownership, access to the lounge (the original rules). But, that would no longer make it exclusive, which defeats the purpose of this move...to tout it as something one can only get with a direct purchase.

ETA: Plus, I really believe the plan is to increase the number of lounges exclusive for DVC owners who have membership extras, and the reopening of TOTWL allowed them to make the move more easily then had it never closed in the first place.

Thanks for the clarification. As a "blue-card member," this will not impact us. I understand why DVC feels the need to do what they are doing. Just seems like there were other alternative pathways that would not have generated as much negative PR and hostilities as this decision.

 

[Jenglish13]

They are so creative they give benefits by just reducing benefits of the others. I would legit consider direct for second contract if they create new perks that have unique value. It will always feel like a kick between the legs to BLT resale owners.

Yup, I honestly I wouldn't care at all if I owned resale elsewhere.

Or if they restricted some lounge with great animal views at AKV I wouldn't care one bit as a non AKV owner.

Sandisw seems to be the resident expert on the legal aspects of the contracts and I don't doubt for a second that we've never had contractual rights to the space, but it just struck me as a sort of common sense expectation that all owners/members/paying guests would have access to the features of a given resort. Maybe our frame of reference is wrong that we see totwl as part of BLT but it's really just a Disney asset to do with as they wish. Disney can do what they want with it and we can feel how we like (and piss & moan!) about it. It's not a right or wrong thing, it's subjective.

Others may tell us we shouldn't feel this way or that we should've seen it coming, but it seems small and petty and spiteful to me. I mean does including all BLT owners and paying guests really detract from what they're trying to accomplish? It's not enough to say blue card members from any resort have access along with BLT owners of any kind? Would that really take the shine away from the perk? This is why I keep making the jokes about being second class unwashed trash! As if our very presence would ruin the experience for the Disney nobility!

 

[tjkraz]

I’m curious. Maybe I’ll start a poll too.

Does anyone support the Blue/White divide? I feel it would be informative to know.

I'll preface my comments by saying that I absolutely don't look-down on anyone who bought resale. It's almost always cheaper and if some people don't value the perks, that's their prerogative. Further, resale owners should have equal footing when it comes to making reservations, waitlists and other functional parts of the reservation system.

That said, there's a very real cost associated with some of the perks that DVC offers. Moonlight Magic is an expensive event and simply cannot accommodate all members on-property at a given time. I think there's a fairness element in restricting that to owners who knowingly paid extra for access to the perks.

Member cruises, special tours and events, there are a handful of offerings that fall into this bucket.

Years ago I was told that DVC actually has to compensate Parks & Resorts for every DVC annual pass sold. It's not just a $300-400 write-off for every AP, rather the discount is subsidized in some way by $$$ that hit DVC's marketing budget. (I have no way to confirm whether or not this is true, but it certainly makes sense.)

For other things like lounge access & dining discounts, no I really don't care if resale owners are also partaking. I wouldn't care if resale owners were able to use their points toward non-DVC destinations. But I also understand why DVC groups everything together and uses the full package of perks as leverage to sell direct points.

 

[tjkraz]

Sandisw seems to be the resident expert on the legal aspects of the contracts and I don't doubt for a second that we've never had contractual rights to the space, but it just struck me as a sort of common sense expectation that all owners/members/paying guests would have access to the features of a given resort. Maybe our frame of reference is wrong that we see totwl as part of BLT but it's really just a Disney asset to do with as they wish. Disney can do what they want with it and we can feel how we like (and piss & moan!) about it. It's not a right or wrong thing, it's subjective.

Hindsight is often 20/20 but if you had asked about TOTWL 6 months ago or even 6 weeks ago, I bet some posters would have warned that its status could change. It was always an outlier among member perks and the 2+ year closure gave Disney/DVC the perfect opportunity to discuss its future status.

There is no exact parallel but the BoardWalk has a relatively obscure lounge called The Attic which used to be available to members. It's buried on the end of one of the villa wings, and is seemingly a perfect location for a DVC member exclusive. Over the years, I've heard some early BWV buyers vent that they were under the impression it was part of what they were buying. But many years ago it was closed off to everyone, and made available for only private parties.

(Maybe a return of The Attic will be the next shoe to drop. If so, we can be certain BWV resale owners won't have access.)

This is why I keep making the jokes about being second class unwashed trash! As if our very presence would ruin the experience for the Disney nobility!

Thing is, you're the one who will help perpetuate such a stigma. Few people here--if any--would apply such labels to resale owners. I certainly respect your decision, even if I chose a different path.

 

[CarolynFH]

Hindsight is often 20/20 but if you had asked about TOTWL 6 months ago or even 6 weeks ago, I bet some posters would have warned that its status could change. It was always an outlier among member perks and the 2+ year closure gave Disney/DVC the perfect opportunity to discuss its future status.

There is no exact parallel but the BoardWalk has a relatively obscure lounge called The Attic which used to be available to members. It's buried on the end of one of the villa wings, and is seemingly a perfect location for DVC member access. But many years ago it was closed off to everyone, and made available for only private parties.

(Maybe a return of The Attic will be the next shoe to drop. If so, we can be certain BWV resale owners won't be able to visit.)


Thing is, you're the one who will help perpetuate such a stigma. Few people here--if any--would apply such labels to resale owners. I certainly respect your decision, even if I chose a different path.

Thanks for bringing up The Attic - I remember being aware of it and thinking we might visit during one of our early trips after buying, but it turned out to be closed.

 

[Jenglish13]

I’m curious. Maybe I’ll start a poll too.

Does anyone support the Blue/White divide? I feel it would be informative to know.

Honestly and perhaps ironically, I like the concept. Basic tier for people who just want to book rooms and a VIP tier for those that want to partake in some luxury. I just wish there was more access/choice instead of the 150 direct point requirement. Despite what many say about the goal being to persuade people to buy direct at specific resorts, the real goal underneath that is to make the most money. Why not offer an add on? $350 per year a la carte, or $250 per year for the life of your contract if you commit up front?

So yes, offer it but lower the barrier to entry.