To the DISer whose husband was looking for a teaching job

[fac]

Making sure the kids understand what is being taught is a part of teaching. No one, including myself, said if the kids don't understand it's not the teachers problem. However, whether the kids apply what they have understood (study, do the homework, be ready for tests, etc.) is mostly out of the teachers' control.

In fact, I saw quite a bit on the "all I can do is teach" mentality. I don't happen to totally agree that whether the kids understand or do homework is mostly out of the teachers' control. It may be true for some kids who have to work and earn a living, but otherwise, the teacher can have influence on the kids. It may also be true that they fall through the cracks in lower grade, hence it becomes very difficult in the upper grade.

In my case, because DD's former teachers didn't spend the time in teaching her the basic(not going into the details on my communication with her former teachers), her current teacher has a difficult time, but the teacher works very hard and gives her one-on-one to help.

 

[chobie]

In fact, I saw quite a bit on the "all I can do is teach" mentality. I don't happen to totally agree that whether the kids understand or do homework is mostly out of the teachers' control. It may be true for some kids who have to work and earn a living, but otherwise, the teacher can have influence on the kids. It may also be true that they fall through the cracks in lower grade, hence it becomes very difficult in the upper grade.

In my case, because DD's former teachers didn't spend the time in teaching her the basic(not going into the details on my communication with her former teachers), her current teacher has a difficult time, but the teacher works very hard and gives her one-on-one to help.

Yes, they can have influence on them that carries on outside of the classroom , but how do you mandate or measure that influence? Are you suggesting teachers be fired bcause some kids are not influenced enough to study or show up to class?

 

[fac]

Yes, they can have influence on them that carries on outside of the classroom , but how do you mandate or measure that influence? Are you suggesting teachers be fired bcause some kids are not influenced enough to study or show up to class?

The question becomes what teaching is..
Do we just only responsibile to present the material from the book? or making sure the kids understanding using a variety of strategies (again kids may come from a disadvantage family, but it does not mean that they cannot learn) ? or include organization skills, motivation (say motive the kids to love to read)?

I have my expectation which is irrelevant here..
But I can tell you the attitute of DD's former teachers was that she has taught, and yes, I do think she should be fired, but I am not lobbying to get her fire.

 

[daughtersrus]

And what about the principal here? If he wasn't able to pursuade the teachers to do what he asked, maybe he is a lousy admin and should be fired as well.

Everyone from the janitors to the principal at this school were fired.

 

[CowboyCO]

I do believe they were. I think it was 3 administrators along with the teachers.

The problem with holding the principal accountable is with the union their hands are tied. THey CAN'T fire anyone. Even if they are lousy teachers once they have tenure it is almost impossible.

Lousy teachers (at least in our district) don't make it to tenure. They start out on a series of one-year contracts and don't get tenure until the third year. There have been several teachers over the last few years in my DW's department that were one year - and GONE. One of them, when she found out she wasn't being offered a position for the following year quit in the middle of the semester.

Once a teacher has tenure, they can be fired. If they break the law - they can be fired immediately. If they endangered a student, they can be fired immediately. If it is poor performance, they are monitored, put on an improvement plan with certain goals. If they meet the goals, then they are retained. If they don't - Buh-Bye!

 

[MrsPete]

I consider teaching a professional career, and like most professional careers, there is no overtime pay, or set hours worked. I don't understand why teachers seem to complain about working more hours than the school day hours?

I agreed. It is the constant whinning on how many hours that a teacher puts in that irks me. I won't even bother to compare my hours. I chose my profession. If I don't like the job for any reason, I quit.

First of all, I am not whining about anything. I love my job, wouldn't have stayed for 10 years if I didn't. What I don't like is when ignorant people think that they know all about a teacher's job just because they happen to have kids in school and "see" everything that's going on. If issues are happening in one school or one district before generalizations are made about teachers in general, those people should educate themselves.

It's not my hours or my pay that I am complaining about -- what I hate is teacher-bashing and people who insist that we're sitting around on our butts drinking coffee, doing nothing to help the students. It's those attitudes towards teaching that I hate.

 

[fac]

It's not my hours or my pay that I am complaining about -- what I hate is teacher-bashing and people who insist that we're sitting around on our butts drinking coffee, doing nothing to help the students. It's those attitudes towards teaching that I hate.

You should also see why non-teacher was shocked when the teachers complained about having to work over an hour or without lunch, which in fact happens quite often in the corporate world..

I do agree as MM27 honestly pointed out

However, there is a difference between a bad teacher and a teacher that isn't willing to let administration walk all over them. Because you know what happens? First they tell you to tutor kids after school for 20 minutes one day a week. You do it without complaining. So then they decide that 2 days a week will be better. That's the point of tenure. That's the point of having the union. There are some administrators that will push and push and push and without that support they would get away with it. We sit and do contract negotiations every few years so why shouldn't both sides follow the contract?

Unfortunately, union is the only protection for working people, but it has also protected bad teachers..as in any union

 

[chobie]

Lousy teachers (at least in our district) don't make it to tenure. They start out on a series of one-year contracts and don't get tenure until the third year. There have been several teachers over the last few years in my DW's department that were one year - and GONE. One of them, when she found out she wasn't being offered a position for the following year quit in the middle of the semester.

Once a teacher has tenure, they can be fired. If they break the law - they can be fired immediately. If they endangered a student, they can be fired immediately. If it is poor performance, they are monitored, put on an improvement plan with certain goals. If they meet the goals, then they are retained. If they don't - Buh-Bye!

That's pretty much how its done in most districts. But that means that the administrators have to do their job monitoring the teachers' performance.

 

[chobie]

You should also see why non-teacher was shocked when the teachers complained about having to work over an hour or without lunch, which in fact happens quite often in the corporate world..

I do agree as MM27 honestly pointed out



Unfortunately, union is the only protection for working people, but it has also protected bad teachers..as in any union

The union upholds the contract and there are procedures in the contract for firing teachers, if they are not followed then the union fights to make sure the contract is upheld. If a side effect of that is a "bad" teacher gets their contract upheld, then it is the administration that is at fault, not the union.

BTW, I'm willing to bet just about every teacher has a parent or 2 that thinks they are "bad" and deserve to be fired -- if every teacher who had a parent that wanted them fired was fired, then schools would have an employee change over rate like McDonald's.

 

[TheDisneyGirl02]

Sorry but yes other professions do tolerate this. As a RN I am responsible for the patient even if an aide or LPN does all the patients care. I am the one who is held accountable so yes it does happen in other jobs.

So when my grandfather was lying in bed in the ICU dying and the nurses weren't doing anything to keep him comfortable, you (being the RN) were responsible for his pain, right?

I know in one of your posts that you said you were a teacher at some point of your professional career. What made you change professions?

You are not held accountable in the same way, poor teachers are there year after year because of seniority. If the percentage of students aren't up to reading level every year do you get fired? a cut in pay? have to come in more hours? I don't think so.

Is money taken out of your paycheck if someone passes away or ends up getting sick again? Would you have to work extra hours to ensure that all of your patients go home healthy? To me, that is holding nurses accountable just like you are saying teachers should be held accountable. If a child isn't learning to read is pretty much the same thing as if somebody gets sick because of improper care.

*In saying this, I am in no way shape or form saying you are a good or bad nurse. I have no idea where you are a nurse and don't know you personally or professionally so I can't make that judgement. Nursing is a very vital job and there is a need for good nurses. Thankfully the times that I or my family members have been in the hospital the nurses have been wonderful. The one bad experience was when my grandfather was dying and that was the most recent incident - he died two weeks after I got married so what happened to him is still fresh in my mind.*

 

[HsvTeacher]

Sorry but I do know what I am talking about. Our teachers demand every minute beyond their contract be paid or they will not do it. The Kindergarten teachers used to meet the kids at the door and walk them to the room. That was stopped when the union discovered it put them over the allotted minutes with student contact in the contract.

Parent night at the Highschool is a mad rush, when asked why it couldn't be 30 minutes longer the principal stated that he was only allowed 1 night per year to have the teachers work and it could not be any longer than 2 hours, he could not add even 15 minutes.

That may be the case where you live, but you made a broad-sweeping generalization that all teachers made high salaries and were compensated for every minute they worked over what was required. I can assure you that is not the case in all areas.

I don't get paid for the time I come in early and the time I stay late to work on lesson plans. I don't get paid for taking papers home to grade and for filling out the massive amounts of paperwork we must complete. I don't get paid for coming to required PTA meetings, open houses, fundraising events, and after-hours parent conferences and phone calls.

Again, these were things I knew about when I signed on for the job. I'm not complaining, just stating facts.

If they have teacher conferences till 6:30 one day twice a year they get compensated with a half day off of school for each time. And they don't even have to stay till 6:30 if they can schedule everyone before yet they still get the day off.
Now please tell me that isn't getting compensated for every minute over the normal day.

I would call this a wash. They are having conferences after hours. If their school system sees fit to give them half-day compensation, it's a wash. They are still working the same amount of hours. No more, no less.

As far as salaries, Illinois isn't the only place, try PA, NJ, WI and you will find very high salaries also.

I'm not going to post my salary here, because I have friends who are also DISers, but I can assure you it's nowhere near what you posted earlier. The cost of living is also higher in these states.

How do you not get paid lunches? Paid holidays?Do you work on Christmas?
Are you required to go into the school everyday in the summer?

Hmmm...I don't know how I can say this more plainly: If I don't work, I don't get paid. I don't work on Christmas, so I don't get paid that day. I don't work on Labor Day, so I don't get paid for that day, either. I don't work during the summer, so I don't get paid for those days. Paid holidays and summers "off" simply don't exist for teachers. We get paid for contracted days.

As far as lunch, I don't get a lunch break. I'm required to walk my students to lunch, sit at the table with them, monitor behavior, make sure they clean up after themselves, etc. I'm on duty the whole time. Again, no lunch break for me!

Most days, I don't even get my "unencumbered" planning time. Let's see, today I spent the entire time in a data meeting (for accountability) with my principal. There goes my chance for a restroom break!

I am not saying Teaching isn't work, it is BUT it is no harder than many, many professions and is generally better compensated and better working conditions than most for the education and responsibility level, and especially the accountability level.

You have got to be kidding me? You're saying that teachers are not held to as high of a level of responsibility and accountability as other professions? I'm responsible for the education and safety of 19 precious children every day. I'm also accountable for making sure they learn everything they need (and more!) by the time they leave my classroom. I'm accountable to my principle, my superintendent, the state board of education, and the federal department of education.

As far as working conditions, let me ask you this: Are you able to go to the restroom when you need to? I'm not. Are you allowed to eat your lunch every day? There are many days when I'm not.

Another little example: Last Friday, my blood glucose levels dropped way below my normal range. I was so disoriented that I couldn't find my test meter pouch in my purse. I really needed to see our school nurse, but I had to wait until someone could cover my classroom. Do you think that is a good working condition?

As a nurse I most certainly are responsible for the care given by anyone who cares for the patient I am charge for. Not just gross negligence.


Please show me the teacher who has been fired from a union job because her students didn't pass? That is why the Rhode Island thing is such big news, it doesn't happen.

You are not held accountable in the same way, poor teachers are there year after year because of seniority. If the percentage of students aren't up to reading level every year do you get fired? a cut in pay? have to come in more hours? I don't think so.

Oh, a lot of teachers get fired for not doing their jobs. Just because you're in a union or have tenure doesn't mean you can't get fired. It just takes documentation of the part of administrators. In my school system alone, six tenured teachers have been fired this year for not doing their jobs. It might be harder to get rid of them, but it does happen.

 

[allison443]

Hsv teacher, you wrote

"I don't get paid for the time I come in early and the time I stay late to work on lesson plans. I don't get paid for taking papers home to grade and for filling out the massive amounts of paperwork we must complete. I don't get paid for coming to required PTA meetings, open houses, fundraising events, and after-hours parent conferences and phone calls."

I think this is where the disconnect is between teachers and those who work in other professions. Most people in other professional jobs get an annual salary and have to work whatever hours needed to get the job done. Take home work at night, stay late, work weekends, be on call, answer emails/do conference calls in the evening/weekends, etc. No one would say they aren't paid for this-it's part of what they need to do for their job. Why don't teachers look at it as they are required to work 187 school days (or whatever number), plus whatever is required outside the class to do their job correctly? Just like other jobs put in hours outside the office. When teachers complain about not getting paid for their time grading papers, many people think why should they be paid? It's part of their job and I think that bothers people.

 

[HsvTeacher]

Hsv teacher, you wrote

"I don't get paid for the time I come in early and the time I stay late to work on lesson plans. I don't get paid for taking papers home to grade and for filling out the massive amounts of paperwork we must complete. I don't get paid for coming to required PTA meetings, open houses, fundraising events, and after-hours parent conferences and phone calls."

I think this is where the disconnect is between teachers and those who work in other professions. Most people in other professional jobs get an annual salary and have to work whatever hours needed to get the job done. Take home work at night, stay late, work weekends, be on call, answer emails/do conference calls in the evening/weekends, etc. No one would say they aren't paid for this-it's part of what they need to do for their job. Why don't teachers look at it as they are required to work 187 school days (or whatever number), plus whatever is required outside the class to do their job correctly? Just like other jobs put in hours outside the office. When teachers complain about not getting paid for their time grading papers, many people think why should they be paid? It's part of their job and I think that bothers people.

Did you read the rest of the post? My comment above was to prove a point to Hannathy: Most teachers do not get compensation for extra time. That's part of being a salaried employee. Like I said above, I'm not complaining, just stating facts. I haven't seen any other teachers on this thread complaining, either.

I do whatever it takes to make sure my students get the best education they can. I don't have kids, so I think of my students as my own. My DH works in a middle school, and he feels the same way about his students. I do all the things I stated above - coming in early, staying late, meetings, conferences, etc. - because I want what's best for my students. I have high expectations for them, and I have the numbers to prove that what I'm doing is paying off. When people imply that I have an easy job, and get compensated above salary, it really bothers me.

 

[Hannathy]

Hsv teacher, you wrote

"I don't get paid for the time I come in early and the time I stay late to work on lesson plans. I don't get paid for taking papers home to grade and for filling out the massive amounts of paperwork we must complete. I don't get paid for coming to required PTA meetings, open houses, fundraising events, and after-hours parent conferences and phone calls."

I think this is where the disconnect is between teachers and those who work in other professions. Most people in other professional jobs get an annual salary and have to work whatever hours needed to get the job done. Take home work at night, stay late, work weekends, be on call, answer emails/do conference calls in the evening/weekends, etc. No one would say they aren't paid for this-it's part of what they need to do for their job. Why don't teachers look at it as they are required to work 187 school days (or whatever number), plus whatever is required outside the class to do their job correctly? Just like other jobs put in hours outside the office. When teachers complain about not getting paid for their time grading papers, many people think why should they be paid? It's part of their job and I think that bothers people.

Exactly the point.

 

[HsvTeacher]

Exactly the point.

And read my response to Allison443.

 

[allison443]

My comment above was to prove a point to Hannathy: Most teachers do not get compensation for extra time. That's part of being a salaried employee. Like I said above, I'm not complaining, just stating facts. I haven't seen any other teachers on this thread complaining, either.

I do whatever it takes to make sure my students get the best education they can. I don't have kids, so I think of my students as my own. My DH works in a middle school, and he feels the same way about his students. I do all the things I stated above - coming in early, staying late, meetings, conferences, etc. - because I want what's best for my students. I have high expectations for them, and I have the numbers to prove that what I'm doing is paying off. When people imply that I have an easy job, and get compensated above salary, it really bothers me.

Yes I did see where you specifically said you weren't complaining about it-I had trouble quoting your post so that part wasn't in my post. (sorry) However, wasn't the whole point of the OP that those teachers in RI were fired because they wouldn't agree to do extras unless they were paid?

I definitely respect what teachers do and I know it is not an easy job!

 

[Hannathy]

My comment above was to prove a point to Hannathy: Most teachers do not get compensation for extra time. That's part of being a salaried employee. Like I said above, I'm not complaining, just stating facts. I haven't seen any other teachers on this thread complaining, either.

But the problem in the 4 areas I have lived is that the teachers don't act like salaried positions, they act like hourly positions. When you refuse to walk kindergarten kids from the playground in the morning because it adds 5 minutes to you contract day that is not a salaried mind set. When you refuse to allow the principal to make the one and only parent teacher night a year 20 minutes longer that is not acting like a salaried position.

 

[HsvTeacher]

I totally agree with you on this point:

But the problem in the 4 areas I have lived is that the teachers don't act like salaried positions, they act like hourly positions. When you refuse to walk kindergarten kids from the playground in the morning because it adds 5 minutes to you contract day that is not a salaried mind set. When you refuse to allow the principal to make the one and only parent teacher night a year 20 minutes longer that is not acting like a salaried position.

However, I disagree with the broad generalization you made in this post:

The average salary at the High School in question is 72,000-78,000. Yes you make 36,000 in your first year but you will go up every year. Guaranteed- I know of no other job you are guaranteed to go up every year. Teachers start low but they top out high for the amount of time they spend at their jobs.The us median I think is around 52,000 not bad for 10 months, every weekend off, every holiday off, spring break, Christmas break, and compensation for every minute over what is required, plus personal days.
Yes Teaching is a job but it isn't slave labor and is a very desirable job or else there wouldn't be waiting lists a mile long every time there is an opening.

 

[bridget]

I sure wish I made $70,000 a year, but I'm not complaining. I am reading interventionist and am a lit coach. Usually I have a 5-10 minute lunch, and no plan, because I pick up extra tutoring groups on my plan time (and have started adding enrichment groups). This is how I choose to spend my day.

I teach in an inner-city school and love every minute of it. Most of my students will be proficent on the state assessment, and some will do better on the state assessment than many of the gifted students in my building! I spend the entire first semester only teaching reading. I don't even mention the state assessment the first semester. We just did a mock practice and all but 3 of my students passed. It can be done! It is very hard work, and you have to find out how to motivate some of the most unmotivated students.

I was on the phone tonight (Friday night) at 7:30pm talking with a parent telling them how proud I was of their child. I can't tell you how many postcards I made up this week and sent out to parents with postive comments about their child! Is any of this in my contract? NO! Does that matter to me? NO!

I worked for 8 years in the business world using my IT degree, and I wouldn't trade this for all the money I was making before

 

[Liberty Belle]

I started at about $20000. I now make about $40000 after TWENTY years. That is a $1000/year raise. Not even sure that covers cost of living. (BTW new grads make $30K...so w/ 20 years, I only make $10K more??!!) I am not complaining about my income. But we certainly are not living the high life. When we had children in daycare, the last week of the month was a LONG one (DH is a teacher, too). It is such a relief now that when I make our monthly budget, it usually lasts the month. Our friends in other professional positions make AT LEAST double what we do...bankers, management, insurance, even construction.

New teachers aren't getting jobs because districts are cutting. We are having PARAPROFESSIONALS (NOT teachers...anyone w/ a HS diploma can get a para job) teaching small groups--ARE YOU KIDDING ME? BUT the classroom teacher is the only one held accountable for those student's progress! Would ANY other profession tolerate this, NO WAY.

Para piping in:

That may be true in your district, but here you need a certain number of college hours to be a para. Many paras have Bachelor's degrees and I've met some with Master's.

I've heard in other districts a Bachelor's is required.

Yes, we do teach small groups. A teacher is supposed to plan the lessons, but many I've worked with (possibly even most) do not. We also use our own money to buy supplies, games, etc for the classroom and for our groups. My first two years I received no training, yet I was expected to know how to teach. And we usually do not get the highest groups. We get the groups with the students having difficulties. And we get almost zero recognition and appreciation shown from anyone other than students and some teachers.

We get paid very little. I'm supposed to get 30 minutes for lunch, but that rarely happens. Most days that's when I have to use the restroom, as well.

I know we do not have all the paperwork and the meetings, etc that teachers do, but we do have to deal with crazy parents at times, students with behavioral and other problems. I've been bitten, scratched, groped, spit on, etc many times. It's not an easy job and I get paid next to nothing, but I enjoy my work. I do it for the kids.

Our teachers have to stay for meetings and PD usually 3 out of 5 days a week. The stress level is very high. The time off they get in the summer is very much needed.

I've worked with great teachers and with bad teachers. I hate to say it, but I've only worked with about three teachers who I would want teaching my children. Maybe I've just been unlucky. Regardless, all this bashing is just crazy.