To the DISer whose husband was looking for a teaching job

[pearlieq]

Please do not think that Naperville, Warrenville, Winnetka, Evanston, Deerfield, etc. represent the true picture of education.

I totally get what you're saying, which is why I've always qualified my statement with "around here".

As I said, the teacher who makes $35k after 15 years in and is eating standing up while supervising lunch, yeah, they're getting a raw deal. I have sympathy and indignation on their behalf.

But I just cannot, cannot, cannot tolerate the bellyaching you'll occasionally hear from teachers in my neck of the woods. It irritates the heck out of me and I think it hurts teachers overall since it makes people like me jaded.

 

[paysensmom]

And how many threads have there been lately bashing professionals in business, law, and other fields? Take a look around, and you'll find many teacher-bashing threads. I'm sick and tired of people thinking I have a high-paying, cushy job and get paid lunches, holidays, and summers. Most people are talking about something of which they know nothing about. It gets old![/QUOTE]



Yeah, that

 

[fac]

I consider teaching a professional career, and like most professional careers, there is no overtime pay, or set hours worked. I don't understand why teachers seem to complain about working more hours than the school day hours? Don't you know many professionals in business, law, other fields, who work more than standard office hours of 40 hours a week? People take home work, work on weekends, all the time in many different jobs, and not all are high paying. Example, law is a field people often think is well-paying. Outside top firms in NY and other big cities, and for graduates of less than top schools, it is often not that great.

However, teaching is one of the few professional positions around here that is unionized. Around here they are trying to get the teachers to contribute "something" for their health care and the union is in an uproar.

I know from your posts you are a very dedicated and committed teacher. I'm sure you realize that your salary and required afterschool time commitments are not the norm everywhere. (there are many dedicated teachers who do the tutoring/clubs/chaperoning without being required.) Most people that I know that go into teaching know the salary going in, but the trade off for most is summers off with their kids, having the same schedule as their kids, and around here anyway, the benefits and pension.

I agreed. It is the constant whinning on how many hours that a teacher puts in that irks me. I won't even bother to compare my hours. I chose my profession. If I don't like the job for any reason, I quit.

Don't get me wrong, if a teacher were doing his/her job right, he/she deserves the pay. DD has a great teacher this year.

 

[allison443]

No, I know that salaried employees do not get paid overtime. I knew I wouldn't get overtime when I accepted my teaching position. However, obviously Hannathy does not know that fact, as he/she stated in this comment:








And how many threads have there been lately bashing professionals in business, law, and other fields? Take a look around, and you'll find many teacher-bashing threads. I'm sick and tired of people thinking I have a high-paying, cushy job and get paid lunches, holidays, and summers. Most people are talking about something of which they know nothing about. It gets old!

I hope you didn't think I was teacher bashing, I really wasn't. I usually don't get involved in these threads because I really respect what teachers do and these threads often wind up with generalizations, people basing judgments based on how things are in their area, one experience they had with a teacher, etc.
Thanks to all the teachers for the important work you do~

 

[tlh0726]

Talk about being overworked, underpaid, and unappreciated, try doing daycare.

Teachers can only do so much, follow through need to happen at home. Society's values have changed considerably.

 

[gina2000]

I often wonder why people don't teach. Critics tell teachers what cushy jobs they have. Well, anyone of those who criticize could have chosen teaching as a profession? Why didn't they?

Teaching isn't easy. Teachers have a fluid, constantly changing body of learners. Each learner is unique and each needs different strategies in order to succeed. Many learners comes to school with different problems ranging from benign neglect to outright abuse. Learning is the last thing on these learner's minds; survival is. Yet, teachers are held accountable.

Teaching is the only profession where professionals are held accountable for others' accomplishments. Teachers are measured by learners' successes. What if the learners' goals are vastly different than the teachers'?

Teachers have absolutely no choice in whom they teach. Everyone must have a public school education. Teachers don't choose as coaches do. Schools and classrooms are not created based on accomplishments or capability. Classrooms are a mixture from the very capable to the barely surviving. Yet, teachers must ensure that all receive the same quality of teaching and are accountable for those whose capabilities are blighted by problems, learning disabilities, and tragedies.

I'm a new teacher. For many years I worked on Wall Street but chose a different profession based on changes in my personal life. I can knowledgeably comment on both. I worked long hours on Wall Street and I currently work long hours teaching. Both have their advantages as well as their disadvantages. Both are difficult professions. However, I made one helluva lot more money on Wall Street and had many more personal perks and advantages.

I love teaching but have absolutely none of the perks and advantages of a private sector job. And I do think that matters in the long run. Teachers have so little physical freedom that the small perks they do get (such as an uninterrupted lunch) are huge needs. I know that sounds petty and ridiculous, but try not using a restroom when you need one, try going all day without talking to an adult, try working without a minute to yourself to grab a cup of tea or a glass of water. Sure there are teachers that take huge advantage of their situations. But I think you will find that by and large, most are dedicated professionals who put their personal needs aside in favor of the interests of the students they teach.

JMHO.

 

[Hannathy]

No, I know that salaried employees do not get paid overtime. I knew I wouldn't get overtime when I accepted my teaching position. However, obviously Hannathy does not know that fact, as he/she stated in this comment:








And how many threads have there been lately bashing professionals in business, law, and other fields? Take a look around, and you'll find many teacher-bashing threads. I'm sick and tired of people thinking I have a high-paying, cushy job and get paid lunches, holidays, and summers. Most people are talking about something of which they know nothing about. It gets old!

Sorry but I do know what I am talking about. Our teachers demand every minute beyond their contract be paid or they will not do it. The Kindergarten teachers used to meet the kids at the door and walk them to the room. That was stopped when the union discovered it put them over the allotted minutes with student contact in the contract.

Parent night at the Highschool is a mad rush, when asked why it couldn't be 30 minutes longer the principal stated that he was only allowed 1 night per year to have the teachers work and it could not be any longer than 2 hours, he could not add even 15 minutes.

If they have teacher conferences till 6:30 one day twice a year they get compensated with a half day off of school for each time. And they don't even have to stay till 6:30 if they can schedule everyone before yet they still get the day off.
Now please tell me that isn't getting compensated for every minute over the normal day.

As far as salaries, Illinois isn't the only place, try PA, NJ, WI and you will find very high salaries also.

How do you not get paid lunches? Paid holidays?Do you work on Christmas?
Are you required to go into the school everyday in the summer?

I am not saying Teaching isn't work, it is BUT it is no harder than many, many professions and is generally better compensated and better working conditions than most for the education and responsibility level, and especially the accountability level.

 

[KKB]

I am originally from IL. Grew up there. My family still teaches up there. Taught my first year there. I made 34,000 my first year. This was 2005. This was in a NICE, affluent suburb. Yes, teachers top out at over 100 in IL. Their pay scale is weird up there. They start really low and grow almost exponentially. I would have jumped about 14,000 in year 4 if I got my Masters.

Instead, we chose to move to TX. I made 44,000 in year two. In TX, I will earn about 600-800 more each additional year of experience. I will certainly never top 100. In fact, they top out at about 60. Of course the cost of living as compared to Chicagoland was a no brainer for me.

Please do not think that Naperville, Warrenville, Winnetka, Evanston, Deerfield, etc. represent the true picture of education. (Not to mention the unions dominate up in IL to the detriment of education in my humble opinion.) Again, IL is a very weird case.

I started at about $20000. I now make about $40000 after TWENTY years. That is a $1000/year raise. Not even sure that covers cost of living. (BTW new grads make $30K...so w/ 20 years, I only make $10K more??!!) I am not complaining about my income. But we certainly are not living the high life. When we had children in daycare, the last week of the month was a LONG one (DH is a teacher, too). It is such a relief now that when I make our monthly budget, it usually lasts the month. Our friends in other professional positions make AT LEAST double what we do...bankers, management, insurance, even construction.

New teachers aren't getting jobs because districts are cutting. We are having PARAPROFESSIONALS (NOT teachers...anyone w/ a HS diploma can get a para job) teaching small groups--ARE YOU KIDDING ME? BUT the classroom teacher is the only one held accountable for those student's progress! Would ANY other profession tolerate this, NO WAY.

 

[Hannathy]

New teachers aren't getting jobs because districts are cutting. We are having PARAPROFESSIONALS (NOT teachers...anyone w/ a HS diploma can get a para job) teaching small groups--ARE YOU KIDDING ME? BUT the classroom teacher is the only one held accountable for those student's progress! Would ANY other profession tolerate this, NO WAY.

Sorry but yes other professions do tolerate this. As a RN I am responsible for the patient even if an aide or LPN does all the patients care. I am the one who is held accountable so yes it does happen in other jobs.

 

[KKB]

I am not saying Teaching isn't work, it is BUT it is no harder than many, many professions and is generally better compensated and better working conditions than most for the education and responsibility level, and especially the accountability level.

The accountability of teachers is better than other positions? Really? How many other positions have the federal government creating a law (which NO educators were involved in the creation of, BTW) that holds you accountable. Don't get me wrong, accountability is important, BUT in other jobs YOU are the driving force. PARENTS are AT LEAST 50% of the equation regarding student accountability, but that is completely discounted. I may bust my rear doing everything I can to help a student succeed, but if the student isn't there enough, or the parent doesn't hold education in the highest regard, whatever I do isn't enough.
Additionally, the federal government's "accountability" says that even students who CANNOT perform at grade lever MUST. REALLY? So a fifth grade student born with cerebral palsy who reads at a first grade level is REQUIRED to pass a fifth grade test??? WHAT? Would we ask first graders to take a fifth grade test? NEVER. I am NOT exaggerating. By 2013, No Child Left Behind requires that EVERY student MUST be able to pass their grade level test, regardless of IQ, English level, attendance. And teachers are the only ones being held accountable, in our district at least. I have heard more than once, "Well there is nothing you can to about that (reading 4 years below grade level, speaks 50 words of English, only is in class 2 days/wk/avg)--so what is your plan to help them pass???"
NO other profession would tolerate such ridiculous expectations. THAT is why unions have begun to protect teacher time so much (BTW MOST teachers DO put in more time, even tho union is protecting it ). Our district would just ask more & more of us w/o any sort of compensation if they were allowed to.

 

[KKB]

Sorry but yes other professions do tolerate this. As a RN I am responsible for the patient even if an aide or LPN does all the patients care. I am the one who is held accountable so yes it does happen in other jobs.

My mother is an RN, and I do know of this...
Interestingly, teachers are NOT a paraprofessional's supervisor. So they could do nothing w/ those students and we have no retribution.

 

[gina2000]

Sorry but yes other professions do tolerate this. As a RN I am responsible for the patient even if an aide or LPN does all the patients care. I am the one who is held accountable so yes it does happen in other jobs.

You are responsible for the patient receiving the best care possible. You are NOT responsible for the patient's death unless gross negligence occurs.

Teachers are not just responsible for making sure that students receive the best instruction possible. Teachers are also being held responsible if students do not pass the almighty test, something they have little control over, much like nurses have little control over a patient's health taking a turn for the worst.

 

[chobie]

Sorry but yes other professions do tolerate this. As a RN I am responsible for the patient even if an aide or LPN does all the patients care. I am the one who is held accountable so yes it does happen in other jobs.

You are responsible for seeing the patients get care, but not for how or if they respond to that care. I.e. if a patient does not get better despite you giving the appropriate care, you are not held responsible.

Sorry Gina - did not read your post first. Ditto what you said.

 

[Amandaj0831]

My lunch is 25 minutes. Some days that is my only time off. When else would I eat? I do tutor my kids after school for free. I give up some of my off periods. However many parents will not do a dang thing. Their child doesn't stay after school because they cant pick them up. They don't do homework and in class visit with others. When I call the parents Ill be lucky if I get a working number and then the excuse is that they(the parents) are busy, tired, etc. Really at what point are parents responsible for their own kids

 

[Hannathy]

As a nurse I most certainly are responsible for the care given by anyone who cares for the patient I am charge for. Not just gross negligence.


Please show me the teacher who has been fired from a union job because her students didn't pass? That is why the Rhode Island thing is such big news, it doesn't happen.

You are not held accountable in the same way, poor teachers are there year after year because of seniority. If the percentage of students aren't up to reading level every year do you get fired? a cut in pay? have to come in more hours? I don't think so.

 

[MM27]

I just can not stand the teacher hating anymore. Half the people who complain about my job could not last ten minutes doing it! URGHHHHH!!!

very well said. I prefer to look into how to ensure our next generation receives the best education rather than whinning or comparing with a banker working in Manhattan or a policeman's work. We don't know what each work entails and we chose our profession.

If I can decide, I would prefer no tenure for teachers, teachers should be held accountable for their work. On the other hand, I also realize that it can be a very political environment, it does not necessary mean that the best teachers will stay. It can be difficult.

In the case of the RI superintendent, if the changes do not happen, she may have to go as well.

First of all, I am not whining about anything. I love my job, wouldn't have stayed for 10 years if I didn't. What I don't like is when ignorant people think that they know all about a teacher's job just because they happen to have kids in school and "see" everything that's going on. If issues are happening in one school or one district before generalizations are made about teachers in general, those people should educate themselves.

You know why I mentioned my friends, the broker and the policeman, in my post? Because everyone is quick to bash teacher salaries and try to compare us to "the real world" without knowing what goes on in the real world. Sure some people might be asked to work through lunch without extra pay. Some of those same people sit at their desks and surf the internet during the day on their down time. I've read posts right here on the DIS where people say they are bored at work so they are posting.

If you read my original post carefully, I mentioned that we don't know everything about other professions. That's my point. We don't know what it means to be a police officer or a nurse or a businessman, but by golly everyone knows what teachers do. There are many professions, however, where those people that are doing that extra work are compensated for it, very nicely, as my examples show


To switch back to the original post though, the teachers are filing and appeal so they are not allowing the issue to just die. Good for them

 

[love3monsters]

What responsibility do parents have for the success of their child?

Teachers can do a lot of things but we cannot control what happens before and after school. I have taught in very urban settings. Children who do not have their basic needs met cannot learn as well as children who do.

How can I fire those parents who do not meet the needs of their children?

Sign me up!

 

[daughtersrus]

Understand why they perhaps got a little upset when the teachers wouldn't spend an extra 20 minutes a day?

Remember that it's not just 20 minutes a day. It's lunch, tutoring, extra meeting as well as time during the summer.

Also, how much time are the parents spending with their children to help with their studies or to learn to speak English?

 

[daughtersrus]

If I can decide, I would prefer no tenure for teachers, teachers should be held accountable for their work. .

How do you hold someone responsible for the actions/non-actions of someone else?

I used this example in a different thread. My dentist has taught me how to floss. If I choose not to use the skills that he's taught, should he be held accountable?

For teachers, they can be the best teacher but if the students that he/she is teaching doesn't want to learn or isn't capable of learning what is being taught, there is no way to force the child to do well on the tests.

I'll use my DD as an example. She is disabled and has an IEP. She is nowhere near her level in any subject but yet the state says that she must take the test. Guess what, she failed because she can't even hold a pencil let alone read the test or turn the pages.

I'm not for a minute saying that children with IEPs are a problem. I'm only trying to show that you can't hold my DD's teachers responsible for her not being able to learn what they are trying to teach her. In the same way, you can't hold a teacher responsible for the students not wanting to be in school or not wanting to do the work that is needed to learn.

 

[daughtersrus]

As a nurse I most certainly are responsible for the care given by anyone who cares for the patient I am charge for. Not just gross negligence.

So are you saying that it would be your fault if a patient discharged from the hospital got sick or injured because they didn't follow the discharge instructions that you gave him/her before they left the hospital?