To the DISer whose husband was looking for a teaching job

[disneyandme]

I wonder if the school boad in RI was trying to make the point that they were in control and if the teachers wanted their jobs back they would have to tow the line. Low preforming school teachers have an entirely different job than other teachers.( yes I worked in low preforming school in 3 states) Firing and entire school staff will not help these kids one bit. I would love to see the media follow this school in the next few years. They are going to have to trying to find mass amounts of subs to cover classes- with no teaching going on- and what we used to call placeholders to babysit those classes without subs. This was not about teachers unwilling to give up 20 mins of lunch. I know I work 3 lunchroom or recess duty druing lunch a week and the other 2 lunches I did have where usually less than 10 minutes after dropping off my kids and dealing with any behavior issues that had occured. I got to eat then- when my lunch hadn't been stolen- and use the restroom. There were no planning periods throughout the day and no classroom assistants. We had no special (art, music, etc) teachers, so there was no break from the time I arrived until I left 10-12 hours later. Were there less than good teachers in some classrooms- sure- but doesn't everyone work with bad enployees. When isn't the administration taking the brunt of this for not weeding out the bad teachers long before now.

 

[MrsPete]

You should also see why non-teacher was shocked when the teachers complained about having to work over an hour or without lunch, which in fact happens quite often in the corporate world . . . Unfortunately, union is the only protection for working people, but it has also protected bad teachers..as in any union

Yes, but when a person in the corporate world misses lunch, he or she almost always has the option of grabbing a short break later in the day for a snack. Teachers don't have that choice -- they're with their classes.

And teachers unions are really a NorthEast thing -- same areas where teachers are paid highly, same areas where it's hard to get a job as a teacher. This isn't indicative of the whole country. The majority of America's teachers are NOT unionized.

BTW, I'm willing to bet just about every teacher has a parent or 2 that thinks they are "bad" and deserve to be fired -- if every teacher who had a parent that wanted them fired was fired, then schools would have an employee change over rate like McDonald's.

Oh, yeah, that's the truth! Want names of some people who hate me? I mean HATE ME as a teacher? And it's always because I've given their poor, innocent child a bad grade, haven't allowed them to make up work that should've been done long ago, held them responsible for work that they didn't do, or something similar.

Oh, a lot of teachers get fired for not doing their jobs. Just because you're in a union or have tenure doesn't mean you can't get fired. It just takes documentation of the part of administrators. In my school system alone, six tenured teachers have been fired this year for not doing their jobs. It might be harder to get rid of them, but it does happen.

Yep, I've seen people fail to make it to tenure, and I've seen people who tenure be fired. Tenure is there to protect the established, proven teacher from undeserved persecution. It is not intended to protect any teacher who's not doing his or her job -- and good teachers don't want to see the few bad apples protected. They make the rest of us look bad.

But the problem in the 4 areas I have lived is that the teachers don't act like salaried positions, they act like hourly positions. When you refuse to walk kindergarten kids from the playground in the morning because it adds 5 minutes to you contract day that is not a salaried mind set. When you refuse to allow the principal to make the one and only parent teacher night a year 20 minutes longer that is not acting like a salaried position.

I don't have any personal knowledge about the Rhode Island teachers, and of course I don't know about the areas where you have lived . . . but this is so far from the reality of what I have seen in my career (and in the various schools my children have attended) that it is difficult for me to believe.

 

[Hannathy]

And teachers unions are really a NorthEast thing -- same areas where teachers are paid highly, same areas where it's hard to get a job as a teacher. This isn't indicative of the whole country. The majority of America's teachers are NOT unionized.

Actually Teachers unions are among the largest unions in the nation. Between the 2 unions there are 4 million members. I think there are more teachers in a union than not.

I have lived in the north east and the midwest. Both heavily unionized and well paid. I also know the west coast is heavily unionized as far as teachers go also.

 

[flstatenolefan]

If the school was in such dire circumstances and the teachers were the issue, the district should have transferred teachers from the "best" school in the district to this underperforming school to see if they could up the scores.

My guess is that they would not be able to.

Teachers can only work with what they are given.

 

[bridget]

If the school was in such dire circumstances and the teachers were the issue, the district should have transferred teachers from the "best" school in the district to this underperforming school to see if they could up the scores.

My guess is that they would not be able to.

Teachers can only work with what they are given.

It isn't easy, but it can be done. You have to be 100% committed, and can't have a negative attitude. You need strong administrative leadership and a very dedicated staff!

 

[flstatenolefan]

It isn't easy, but it can be done. You have to be 100% committed, and can't have a negative attitude. You need strong administrative leadership and a very dedicated staff!

You are forgetting the most important part--interested and committed parents.

 

[MrsPete]

Actually Teachers unions are among the largest unions in the nation. Between the 2 unions there are 4 million members. I think there are more teachers in a union than not.

I have lived in the north east and the midwest. Both heavily unionized and well paid. I also know the west coast is heavily unionized as far as teachers go also.

Hmmm . . . questioning the numbers, I find that it's hard to pinpoint numbers on teachers (which surprised me). I did a quick google search. An article from the Washington Post (2005) says that 3 million teachers work in America's public schools. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/14/AR2005091402193.html) The US Census says we number 6.2 million (http://www.census.gov/Press-Release...cts_for_features_special_editions/001737.html). Another seemingly less credible source says 3.1 million teachers in public school and another 400,000 in private schools. (http://www.ericdigests.org/2000-3/demand.htm); personally, I would've thought the percentage of private school teachers would've been smaller compared to the public school numbers.

Anyway, the difficulty in pinpointing the number of teachers who exist does make me wonder how credible your union membership numbers could be. Remember that unions want to appear large and strong, and it's easy for them to inflate their numbers. I wonder if that 4 million includes college education majors, who can join NEA for a paltry sum something like $5-10 dollars a year -- yet they're not full-fledged members. Colleges encourage their students to join, the idea being that a tie to a professional community looks good on a resume.

In doing that quick search, I learned that the NEA says that today's average teacher is

White
Female
Married
Religious
43 years old
Over half hold a Master's Degree

I am soooo average!

The NEA goes on to say that teachers today spend an average of 50+ hours per week on teaching duties, including noncompensated school-related activities such as grading papers, bus duty, club advising, fund raisers, phone calls at home, and evening activity supervision.
teach an average of 21 pupils at the elementary and 28 at the high school level.
spend an average of $443 per year of their own money to meet the needs of their students. Elementary teachers spend about $498 per year. Secondary teachers spend about $386.
make an average starting salary of $31,704 per year.
73% enter the teaching profession because of their desire to work with young people.

Anyway, back to the question of union membership . . . I don't think you're differentiating between states where teachers are really full-fledged union members and states where teachers have litigation insurance protection through a union (not the same thing as being a real member).

NEA (National Education Association) provides insurance to any teacher across the country. It's something that most teachers consider a necessity since anyone can accuse us of doing something inapproprite at any time (I personally have my insurance through another organization, but NEA is the biggest one). However, these insurance-only members don't have contracts negotiated by the union, don't act as a group in strikes, etc.

To be sure my impressions were correct, I googled teacher salaries by state. Since I'm a little over half-way through my teaching career, I figured I'm average for my state . . . so I looked at average salaries that're HIGHER than mine. Here's the results:

Alaska
California
Conneticut
Delaware
Georgia
Hawaii
Illinois
Indiana
Maryland
Mass
Michigan
Minnesota
New Hampshire
New Jersey
New York
Ohio
Penn
Rhode Island
Vermont
Washington
Wisconsin

You'll see that there are a few stand-out unusual states: Georgia, for example, is unusual in the South -- probably because it houses Atlanta, our biggest city. And then you'd expect Hawaii and Alaska to be different because of their geography /unusual economies. California is also just plain different because of its population. Those states are the outlyers -- they don't fit the pattern.

But that leaves the Northeast and the Pacific Northwest as the high-paying states. These are also the highly unionized states. Therefore, I stand by my original statement that your generalization is really only true for limited portions of the country -- not for America as a whole.

 

[bridget]

You are forgetting the most important part--interested and committed parents.

That would be nice, but the students are the most important part. Parental support is a fantastic bonus that I can't count on! I work with 8-12 year olds that every morning get themselves ready, walk to school by themselves, and arrive at school early for tutoring- despite zero parental support. It is a sad situation. I saw 1 parent at parent-teacher conferences. I can't help the parents, but I can help their children! I'm not going to make excuses and say these students can't succeed because they have lousy parents. My students have to work harder and have more things to overcome, but they can do it!

 

[MM27]

Hmmm . . . questioning the numbers, I find that it's hard to pinpoint numbers on teachers (which surprised me). I did a quick google search. An article from the Washington Post (2005) says that 3 million teachers work in America's public schools. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/14/AR2005091402193.html) The US Census says we number 6.2 million (http://www.census.gov/Press-Release...cts_for_features_special_editions/001737.html). Another seemingly less credible source says 3.1 million teachers in public school and another 400,000 in private schools. (http://www.ericdigests.org/2000-3/demand.htm); personally, I would've thought the percentage of private school teachers would've been smaller compared to the public school numbers.

Anyway, the difficulty in pinpointing the number of teachers who exist does make me wonder how credible your union membership numbers could be. Remember that unions want to appear large and strong, and it's easy for them to inflate their numbers. I wonder if that 4 million includes college education majors, who can join NEA for a paltry sum something like $5-10 dollars a year -- yet they're not full-fledged members. Colleges encourage their students to join, the idea being that a tie to a professional community looks good on a resume.

In doing that quick search, I learned that the NEA says that today's average teacher is

White
Female
Married
Religious
43 years old
Over half hold a Master's Degree

I am soooo average!

The NEA goes on to say that teachers today spend an average of 50+ hours per week on teaching duties, including noncompensated school-related activities such as grading papers, bus duty, club advising, fund raisers, phone calls at home, and evening activity supervision.
teach an average of 21 pupils at the elementary and 28 at the high school level.
spend an average of $443 per year of their own money to meet the needs of their students. Elementary teachers spend about $498 per year. Secondary teachers spend about $386.
make an average starting salary of $31,704 per year.
73% enter the teaching profession because of their desire to work with young people.

Anyway, back to the question of union membership . . . I don't think you're differentiating between states where teachers are really full-fledged union members and states where teachers have litigation insurance protection through a union (not the same thing as being a real member).

NEA (National Education Association) provides insurance to any teacher across the country. It's something that most teachers consider a necessity since anyone can accuse us of doing something inapproprite at any time (I personally have my insurance through another organization, but NEA is the biggest one). However, these insurance-only members don't have contracts negotiated by the union, don't act as a group in strikes, etc.

To be sure my impressions were correct, I googled teacher salaries by state. Since I'm a little over half-way through my teaching career, I figured I'm average for my state . . . so I looked at average salaries that're HIGHER than mine. Here's the results:

Alaska
California
Conneticut
Delaware
Georgia
Hawaii
Illinois
Indiana
Maryland
Mass
Michigan
Minnesota
New Hampshire
New Jersey
New York
Ohio
Penn
Rhode Island
Vermont
Washington
Wisconsin

You'll see that there are a few stand-out unusual states: Georgia, for example, is unusual in the South -- probably because it houses Atlanta, our biggest city. And then you'd expect Hawaii and Alaska to be different because of their geography /unusual economies. California is also just plain different because of its population. Those states are the outlyers -- they don't fit the pattern.

But that leaves the Northeast and the Pacific Northwest as the high-paying states. These are also the highly unionized states. Therefore, I stand by my original statement that your generalization is really only true for limited portions of the country -- not for America as a whole.

I believe California currently holds the #1 spot for teacher salaries. I am very surprised to see Hawaii on that list. When I graduated college 10 years ago, we had an on campus recruitment job fair. There were reps from Hawaii doing interviews. I was talking to one of my professors and she used to work in Hawaii and said while there is a huge need for teachers, they pay next to nothing and the cost of living is sky high.

 

[flstatenolefan]

That would be nice, but the students are the most important part. Parental support is a fantastic bonus that I can't count on! I work with 8-12 year olds that every morning get themselves ready, walk to school by themselves, and arrive at school early for tutoring- despite zero parental support. It is a sad situation. I saw 1 parent at parent-teacher conferences. I can't help the parents, but I can help their children! I'm not going to make excuses and say these students can't succeed because they have lousy parents. My students have to work harder and have more things to overcome, but they can do it!

Lovely for you. Do you think most of these teacher spoke a second language proficiently?

Central Falls High is one of the lowest-performing schools in Rhode Island. It is in a community where median income is $22,000, census figures show.
Of the 800 students, 65 percent are Hispanic and for most of them, English is a second language. Half the students are failing every subject, with 55 percent skilled in reading and 7 percent proficient in math, officials say

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/02/24/rhode.island.teachers/index.html?hpt=T2

 

[disneyandme]

i found this section of a cnn reprt on the RI matter:

"In a proposal based on federal guidelines, Gallo asked teachers to work a longer school day of seven hours and tutor students weekly for one hour outside school time. She proposed teachers have lunch with students often, meet for 90 minutes every week to discuss education and set aside two weeks during summer break for paid professional development.

A spokesman for the union said the teachers had accepted most of the changes, but wanted to work out compensation for the extra hours of work."



You add all this extra time and you are looking at an additional 9 1/2 hrs plus lunch a week. Supposedly the teacher had agreed to everything expect the longer school day. The super wanted hem to take it unpaid- I wondred about how some of the teachers with families would pay for the extended childcare. Anyway, it wasn't all about 25 minutes of lunch- it's more like 10 hrs a week of extra unpaid time.

 

[disneyandme]

Even if you go with the conservative estimate of 7 hrs a day of classtime plus 1/2 hr before and after school, this adds almost 30% more time to their week. how many people would work 30% more hrs each week and every week for no more pay. i know that many professionals work extra hours when needed, but that's different that being contacted to work an extra 30% with no compensation.

 

[Hannathy]

Yes but most professions teachers get compared to work at least 50 hours a week under normal circumstances and a lot more for projects or problems. and year round.

 

[KKB]

Yes but most professions teachers get compared to work at least 50 hours a week under normal circumstances and a lot more for projects or problems. and year round.

Hmmmm...bankers? accountants? insurance agents? marketing agents?
We have friends that do these jobs and they all get paid CONSIDERABLY more than we do w/ 20 years of experience. Yes, they work year round (most w/ 6 wks of vacation...not a bad deal).

BTW...beginning teachers make $30K here...I make $40K after 20 years of service. Not complaining...it pays the bills. But by no means are we rolling in the dough. (BTW this is with a Master's degree)

 

[MrsPete]

I believe California currently holds the #1 spot for teacher salaries. I am very surprised to see Hawaii on that list. When I graduated college 10 years ago, we had an on campus recruitment job fair. There were reps from Hawaii doing interviews. I was talking to one of my professors and she used to work in Hawaii and said while there is a huge need for teachers, they pay next to nothing and the cost of living is sky high.

Going back to that teacher-salary-by-state-website (http://teacherportal.com/teacher-salaries-by-state), I looked at the "comfort level" stats -- an interesting detail.

Yes, California does have the highest salary -- but you'll see that they're #44 in comfort, which means that although they're earning a large salary, that salary doesn't go all that far. Compared to teachers in other states, their spending power is less.

And check out Hawaii. Teachers are earning 49K on average, but they're ranked as #50 in comfort level; meaning that their salary -- although larger than that of teachers in other states -- has the lowest buying power.

Is the website truthful? I think so. As I said in an earlier post, I'm just over halfway through my teaching career, so I should be very close to the "average" salary for my state. The salary listed on this website IS close to mine, and my state's right in the middle for comfort level. Judging from my own experience, that seems truthful.

 

[MrsPete]

i found this section of a cnn reprt on the RI matter:

"In a proposal based on federal guidelines, Gallo asked teachers to work a longer school day of seven hours and tutor students weekly for one hour outside school time. She proposed teachers have lunch with students often, meet for 90 minutes every week to discuss education and set aside two weeks during summer break for paid professional development.

A spokesman for the union said the teachers had accepted most of the changes, but wanted to work out compensation for the extra hours of work."



You add all this extra time and you are looking at an additional 9 1/2 hrs plus lunch a week. Supposedly the teacher had agreed to everything expect the longer school day. The super wanted hem to take it unpaid- I wondred about how some of the teachers with families would pay for the extended childcare. Anyway, it wasn't all about 25 minutes of lunch- it's more like 10 hrs a week of extra unpaid time.

I suspect there's more to this whole story than appears in the news. I have no idea what the whole truth is, but I do know that the media is no friend of the school system. I've seen them sensationalize various stories (things I've known about first-hand) so often that I take everything they say with a grain of salt.

 

[MrsPete]

Hmmmm...bankers? accountants? insurance agents? marketing agents?
We have friends that do these jobs and they all get paid CONSIDERABLY more than we do w/ 20 years of experience. Yes, they work year round (most w/ 6 wks of vacation...not a bad deal).

BTW...beginning teachers make $30K here...I make $40K after 20 years of service. Not complaining...it pays the bills. But by no means are we rolling in the dough. (BTW this is with a Master's degree)

That is a fair assessment of teacher salary.

Regardless, it's not the salary that bothers me so much as negative attitudes and downright ignorant statements about what we do and don't do.

 

[disneyandme]

I use to make 22K and worked 10 hrs a day. I have a Master's as well. This was just to keep up with the teaching, planning, paperwork, parents, outside stuff (neighborhood safety, abuse, custody issues, etc) and grading papers. If you added in 10 extra hrs a week of teaching/meeting time, you would also have to add in additional time for planning for it, grading papers, etc. It's a ridiculous request- especially with no pay increase.

 

[fac]

Hmmmm...bankers? accountants? insurance agents? marketing agents?
We have friends that do these jobs and they all get paid CONSIDERABLY more than we do w/ 20 years of experience. Yes, they work year round (most w/ 6 wks of vacation...not a bad deal).

BTW...beginning teachers make $30K here...I make $40K after 20 years of service. Not complaining...it pays the bills. But by no means are we rolling in the dough. (BTW this is with a Master's degree)

Don't think it is a relevant comparision. Most people know how much they paid before getting into a profession. On the other hand, most of us know we have to get a decent good job, and if it means working overtime without pay, to keep the job. If people think they were not paid fairly, they should move to another job. It is particularly important for a teaching job because it impacts our future generation.


As an aside, with only the exception of a few posts, when the teachers brought up the pay rate, they forgot to mention about the pension they are getting.

 

[disneyandme]

The schools I worked in did not have a pension program. Not all do.