To the DISer whose husband was looking for a teaching job

[love3monsters]

I haven't figured out how to edit so here goes:

I am not stating that people in urban settings do not meet the basic needs of their child.

Basic needs to me is more than survival needs. It includes reading, speaking and interacting with your child to increase their language skills. Language is so important for learning. Children from all economic groups are coming to school with a deficit in language, social and emotional skills which are all essential for success.

Just a little clarification.

 

[Leajess99]

I want to chime in as a parent who TOTALLY understands and appreciates the work of my children's teachers.

Every day, I put my most precious possession into the hands of their teachers. I trust that they will teach them, encourage them and discipline them. When I am worried b/c my child is having trouble with another student, it is the teacher who I turn to for advice on how to deal with the situation or to get a perspective on how to deal with it. My DDs teacher had to call me this year and let me know that my DD was touched inappropriately by a boy in her SECOND grade class. Worse yet, she had to call his parents and tell them this happened with 2 other girls as well.

I am so sorry that happened to your DD. We had it happen to my friend's son by another boy in my daughter and their kindergarten class last year. To make matters worse, the principal tried to sweep it under the rug and it took the mom going to CPS before the school did anything. They wanted this little boy that had been victimized to remain in the same class as the abuser and wanted the teacher to give up her lunch to sit with him at lunch and never allow him to sit with the other kids. The call is what made the school and the caregivers of the abuser take action. The sad thing is the child was repeating what had happened to him.

 

[southtexasmom]

Education starts at home. Where are the parents? Apparently this high school has had poor performance for awhile. Why weren't the parents outraged the 1st year more than half the students didn't graduate? Parents have to be involved, teachers can only do so much.

 

[eeyorethegreat]

Wow, why is it so easy for people to belittle others and their professions? Holy cow folks.

 

[chobie]

Education starts at home. Where are the parents? Apparently this high school has had poor performance for awhile. Why weren't the parents outraged the 1st year more than half the students didn't graduate? Parents have to be involved, teachers can only do so much.

Exactly. By the time these kids get to high school their attitudes toward education are all ready set by the parents and the community.

And what about the principal here? If he wasn't able to pursuade the teachers to do what he asked, maybe he is a lousy admin and should be fired as well.

 

[fac]

Teachers are not just responsible for making sure that students receive the best instruction possible.

Sadly and unfortunately, it is not true. The law only protects our kids to receive a Fair Appropriate Public Education (FAPE), to some of the unmotivated administrator/educator (at least in my sd), as long as the kids show progress, they consider their work done. In my recent meetings with the school, I have to remind myself never to bring up the word "best" or "... will benefit my child", they will laugh me out of the meeting.


On the other hand, I have been reading the discussion shifted to "responsibility" and "accountability" for our children's education. Here is a question, what will happen to the teachers if they fail the "responsibility" ?? Will they be required to work longer? getting a pay cut? lose their jobs ? lose their pension?? Hence I think the situation in RI is a start..

 

[Hannathy]

Exactly. By the time these kids get to high school their attitudes toward education are all ready set by the parents and the community.

And what about the principal here? If he wasn't able to pursuade the teachers to do what he asked, maybe he is a lousy admin and should be fired as well.

I do believe they were. I think it was 3 administrators along with the teachers.

The problem with holding the principal accountable is with the union their hands are tied. THey CAN'T fire anyone. Even if they are lousy teachers once they have tenure it is almost impossible.

 

[fac]

First of all, I am not whining about anything. I love my job, wouldn't have stayed for 10 years if I didn't. What I don't like is when ignorant people think that they know all about a teacher's job just because they happen to have kids in school and "see" everything that's going on. If issues are happening in one school or one district before generalizations are made about teachers in general, those people should educate themselves.

You know why I mentioned my friends, the broker and the policeman, in my post? Because everyone is quick to bash teacher salaries and try to compare us to "the real world" without knowing what goes on in the real world. Sure some people might be asked to work through lunch without extra pay. Some of those same people sit at their desks and surf the internet during the day on their down time. I've read posts right here on the DIS where people say they are bored at work so they are posting.

If you read my original post carefully, I mentioned that we don't know everything about other professions. That's my point. We don't know what it means to be a police officer or a nurse or a businessman, but by golly everyone knows what teachers do. There are many professions, however, where those people that are doing that extra work are compensated for it, very nicely, as my examples show


To switch back to the original post though, the teachers are filing and appeal so they are not allowing the issue to just die. Good for them

I happened to have work in a brokerage firm in Manhattan, while I did get dinner voucher, a car to take home, good bonus, but I think your comparision was making the same mistake as you complained other's postings about teaching profession. You don't know the whole picture of the type of work.

For me as a tax payer, if a teacher does a good job, he/she deserves the pay, if not, he/she should leave.

 

[chobie]

Sadly and unfortunately, it is not true. The law only protects our kids to receive a Fair Appropriate Public Education (FAPE), to some of the unmotivated administrator/educator (at least in my sd), as long as the kids show progress, they consider their work done. In my recent meetings with the school, I have to remind myself never to bring up the word "best" or "... will benefit my child", they will laugh me out of the meeting.


On the other hand, I have been reading the discussion shifted to "responsibility" and "accountability" for our children's education. Here is a question, what will happen to the teachers if they fail the "responsibility" ?? Will they be required to work longer? getting a pay cut? lose their jobs ? lose their pension?? Hence I think the situation in RI is a start..

If the kids show progress then the teachers are doing their job. Again all the teachers can do is teach. They can't force kids to learn, come to school, study etc. They can only give them the tools and how or whether the kids use those tools is up to the kids and their parents . It would be like nurses being fired if a patient does not respond to treatment or gets released from the hospital and does not follow the aftercare instructions.

 

[chobie]

I do believe they were. I think it was 3 administrators along with the teachers.

The problem with holding the principal accountable is with the union their hands are tied. THey CAN'T fire anyone. Even if they are lousy teachers once they have tenure it is almost impossible.

No, it's not impossible. They do have to follow a procedure and they do have to have cause. Blame lazy principals for not following the procedures if you must blame someone.

 

[gina2000]

I happened to have work in a brokerage firm in Manhattan, while I did get dinner voucher, a car to take home, good bonus, but I think your comparision was making the same mistake as you complained other's postings about teaching profession. You don't know the whole picture of the type of work.

For me as a tax payer, if a teacher does a good job, he/she deserves the pay, if not, he/she should leave.

But I do know the whole picture of the type of work. I worked in sales on Wall Street for over 17 years and I can assure you the pressures are similar. The onus to perform rests on the individual both on Wall Street as well as in the teaching profession. Unfortunately, neither individual can control the outcome of his/her efforts because other agendas are at work. Yet, as a taxpayer and as an investor, I do not evoke the "If Wall Street brokers/analysts/primary dealers do not do a good job, they should leave" card.

And, yes, I know that card has been played many times in the last 2 years. I just don't happen to agree with it.

 

[Hannathy]

No, it's not impossible. They do have to follow a procedure and they do have to have cause. Blame lazy principals for not following the procedures if you must blame someone.

Our principal worked for 3 yrs to get one teacher fired and then just before it was finalized the union stepped in and delayed it some more.

I'm sorry it shouldn't take 3 yrs to get someone fired.
Please show me the lists of teachers getting fired. In a school district with over a thousand teachers someone should get fired occasionally and here it never happens.

 

[fac]

If the kids show progress then the teachers are doing their job. Again all the teachers can do is teach. They can't force kids to learn, come to school, study etc. They can only give them the tools and how or whether the kids use those tools is up to the kids and their parents . It would be like nurses being fired if a patient does not respond to treatment or gets released from the hospital and does not follow the aftercare instructions.

this is not really a correct comparision on "all the teachers can do is teach".

For example, one of her teachers spent most of the lessons by printing out pages from a web site to give the students classwork. The kids did make progress, say a year later, the kids had learned 50 more words, but is it a reasonable progress? at the end of the year, the kids did not learn grammer, different writing styles etc.. Note that many people think of disabled kids as someone who cannot learn, the problem is they are not. They just need to learn differently.

In my case, my kid has private tutor once a week, she improves a lot, but what happen to the other kids in her class? This year, she has a wonderful teacher and I can see the improvement from the kids. Therefore, it is NOT completely correct that "all the teachers can do is teach" (and no wonder, in this board, people always recommended others to teach), but they have to teach using the right strategy. I am not talking about 100 kids, not even 20 kids, her teacher last year only has 5 kids in the class. They learn slower and may require different strategy, but otherwise, normal 10 years old.


It is the attitute that "I went into the classroom, I taught, whether they understood is not my problem" makes me sick. It is really sad, if a teacher thinks that she/he has done the job when they went into the classroom to present the material..

 

[fac]

And, yes, I know that card has been played many times in the last 2 years. I just don't happen to agree with it.

not in the last 2 years, it happens all the time... and not only in Wall street, but in many places... I think the teaching profession is finally catching on...
Again, as many stated early, teaching is an important profession as it shapes the future of our generation, therefore I am just sorry that it didn't catch on early...

On the other hand, I am also fully aware that it is difficult to judge how well someone teaches. Will we be granting too much power to the principal or the superintendent? I do think there is no easy answer.

 

[MM27]

I happened to have work in a brokerage firm in Manhattan, while I did get dinner voucher, a car to take home, good bonus, but I think your comparision was making the same mistake as you complained other's postings about teaching profession. You don't know the whole picture of the type of work.

For me as a tax payer, if a teacher does a good job, he/she deserves the pay, if not, he/she should leave.

Your missing my point, or didn't read my post carefully. I stated in my example with my friends,

Different jobs have different benefits I guess.

I know that. My point was that you don't know all that a job entails until you actually do the job. I didn't say that police officers or business people had it any better than I do. But everyone is always quick to say that teachers only work 6 hours a day, we have these wonderful 2 month long summer vacations and the fact is there is a lot more to it. If people that don't know are going to talk about teachers, as a teacher I feel that I have the right to clear up their misconceptions.

It's the same thing with the salary. Just because there is a group of teachers that make a certain dollar amount, it doesn't mean that every teacher makes that. I live in NJ and yes we have a high starting salary. However, we also have a high cost of living. I know many teachers that need summer jobs or night jobs to make ends meet. Every district in our state has their own pay scale so even the people that are saying that our highest teachers are making $100,000 are only talking about a small group.


I'm right there with you about bad teachers. I work with some and if it were up to me they wouldn't still be there. However, there is a difference between a bad teacher and a teacher that isn't willing to let administration walk all over them. Because you know what happens? First they tell you to tutor kids after school for 20 minutes one day a week. You do it without complaining. So then they decide that 2 days a week will be better. That's the point of tenure. That's the point of having the union. There are some administrators that will push and push and push and without that support they would get away with it. We sit and do contract negotiations every few years so why shouldn't both sides follow the contract? If I broke something on my end of the contract I'd be written up for it. So why should I give up my lunch or my personal time? Because some person in another career gives up theirs?

 

[MM27]

Our principal worked for 3 yrs to get one teacher fired and then just before it was finalized the union stepped in and delayed it some more.

I'm sorry it shouldn't take 3 yrs to get someone fired.
Please show me the lists of teachers getting fired. In a school district with over a thousand teachers someone should get fired occasionally and here it never happens.

I had an in class support teacher that was fired. I complained about her several times because she was supposed to be there to work one on one with the inclusion kids in my class. She didn't know how to do half of the skills we were doing in 4th grade and if one of the kids wasn't cooperative, she would ignore them.

The principals came in to observe, they gave her warnings (to give her the chance to change) and finally they gave her notice.

 

[chobie]

this is not really a correct comparision on "all the teachers can do is teach".

It is the attitute that "I went into the classroom, I taught, whether they understood is not my problem" makes me sick.

Making sure the kids understand what is being taught is a part of teaching. No one, including myself, said if the kids don't understand it's not the teachers problem. However, whether the kids apply what they have understood (study, do the homework, be ready for tests, etc.) is mostly out of the teachers' control.

 

[gina2000]

It is the attitute that "I went into the classroom, I taught, whether they understood is not my problem" makes me sick.

I have never, ever heard that comment made by any teacher in any school at any time, as a mother, a sub, or a teacher. As a matter of fact, I work with a group of professionals who go so far above and beyond that I am in awe every single day.

We differentiate instruction every single day. We work hard to help every single student attain their greatest potential in our classrooms. Do we lose some students? Sure, we do, especially the ones who have immense problems at home, who come to school hungry, who are half awake, and traumatized. And believe me, it happens in every community, not just low income communities. Those are the students we strive to help the most. Sometimes we achieve success; many times we do not. But we are responsible and according to the law will be ultimately accountable for their performance.

 

[fac]

Your missing my point, or didn't read my post carefully. I stated in my example with my friends, I know that. My point was that you don't know all that a job entails until you actually do the job. I didn't say that police officers or business people had it any better than I do. But everyone is always quick to say that teachers only work 6 hours a day, we have these wonderful 2 month long summer vacations and the fact is there is a lot more to it. If people that don't know are going to talk about teachers, as a teacher I feel that I have the right to clear up their misconceptions.

It's the same thing with the salary. Just because there is a group of teachers that make a certain dollar amount, it doesn't mean that every teacher makes that. I live in NJ and yes we have a high starting salary. However, we also have a high cost of living. I know many teachers that need summer jobs or night jobs to make ends meet. Every district in our state has their own pay scale so even the people that are saying that our highest teachers are making $100,000 are only talking about a small group.

I don't think I missed your post, I do want to point out that if a teacher complained others misunderstood his/her profession, it will be inaccurate/unfair to bring out other professions.

I'm right there with you about bad teachers. I work with some and if it were up to me they wouldn't still be there. However, there is a difference between a bad teacher and a teacher that isn't willing to let administration walk all over them. Because you know what happens? First they tell you to tutor kids after school for 20 minutes one day a week. You do it without complaining. So then they decide that 2 days a week will be better. That's the point of tenure. That's the point of having the union. There are some administrators that will push and push and push and without that support they would get away with it. We sit and do contract negotiations every few years so why shouldn't both sides follow the contract? If I broke something on my end of the contract I'd be written up for it. So why should I give up my lunch or my personal time? Because some person in another career gives up theirs?

I think it is difficult to weed out bad teacher, and how do we judge? say the school administrators are not in the same classroom, not to mention there are bad administrators to begin with.

As far as union is concerned, it has its value, as it is the only protection the working class has against the employer in US.

 

[fac]

How do you hold someone responsible for the actions/non-actions of someone else?

I used this example in a different thread. My dentist has taught me how to floss. If I choose not to use the skills that he's taught, should he be held accountable?

For teachers, they can be the best teacher but if the students that he/she is teaching doesn't want to learn or isn't capable of learning what is being taught, there is no way to force the child to do well on the tests.

I'll use my DD as an example. She is disabled and has an IEP. She is nowhere near her level in any subject but yet the state says that she must take the test. Guess what, she failed because she can't even hold a pencil let alone read the test or turn the pages.

I'm not for a minute saying that children with IEPs are a problem. I'm only trying to show that you can't hold my DD's teachers responsible for her not being able to learn what they are trying to teach her. In the same way, you can't hold a teacher responsible for the students not wanting to be in school or not wanting to do the work that is needed to learn.

this is a good question and also on love3monsters's "What responsibility do the parents have the success of their child?"

Recently I spent most of my time in working with my child and parents of other disabled kids and the school district. I did some soul searching on "What the responsibility do the parents have??" as sometimes I do feel parents are not putting enough time in the kids. I noticed that the problem is more significant when both parents work, they will have very little time for the kids (I am not going to aruge whether they can/should stay home). I also realized that the kids, in general, spend a significant amount of time in school therefore, a lot can be taught. Also let us not forgetting that the kids entered school at 5 or 6, their characters can be shaped. Say, I noticed my kids were taught to use daily planner since 4th grade, the same is reinenforced in 5th grade and 6th grade. They learned their organizing skills

The parents can always blame the teachers and the teachers can blame the parents, but let us not forget that when the kids passed in front of us, they are our responsibilities.

(As an aside, my father passed away when I was 7, my mother sometimes worked 3 jobs, she didn't have time to go over my homework, but I grew up in a Catholic school and the nuns changed a lot of my views)