To Infinity and Beyond - Becoming a Better DopeyBadger (Comments Welcome)

[DopeyBadger]

Yep, I am using it and I support them with a payed account. They pull my data from Garmin and have some nice features. The site is fully translated and they work on new features.

Nice!

Btw. I mentioned the site a couple of month in one of my E-Mails

Whoops, I guess I didn't remember that.

I've noticed, pretty much every marathon I've run (all 5 lol), I get a little lightheaded or nauseous after taking so many Gu gels. I take one every 4 miles or so, so for me, by about mile 16, I'm ready to puke. Then I don't take anything else in from then on, when I could probably benefit from one more hit of something to take me to the finish line. I think it's a sugar overload, and I want to try other options, maybe Maurten, but my training will never get above 13-14 miles on your plans so I can't really test whether another product solves the problem. Do you have any suggestions for how to solve this? Can I get a clue what will be better by looking at the ingredients? Is it possible I'm just fueling too often? One thing I have noticed, running all my marathons at Disney, is that I never prepare well for breakfast morning of the race and I just grab whatever sugar-bomb donut or pastry is immediately available at race start. I'd love to get a better handle on this. The good news is my next marathon is near home so I can eat whatever I want for breakfast and have everything just the way I like it.

So is it a taste eversion? Or a feeling of fullness that leads to the nauseousness? Have you ever had a sugar overload similar to this when not running?

So timing wise, about every 45-50 minutes you take a GU (22g per). So you're taking about 30 g carbs per hour. From a tolerance standpoint, that seems quite low. The data says 60g carbs from a single source carb and 90-100g carbs is the maximal tolerance from double sourced, so to be at 30g would be a pretty far outlier. So my gut instinct would be that it isn't a maximal tolerance issue. Maybe instead of just relying on GU branching out to multiple different items might be beneficial as to switch up the consistency.

Surely mixing up the pre-race nutrition routine isn't great. Any way you can take your normal items with you on the airplane, or possibly order groceries to be delivered?

As for how to handle it in a training plan where the maximal run is 150 min, you could always practice on all the lesser runs (like we normally do), and then do a much longer run as a "B" race. So instead of a HM "B" race, you do a very long marathon tempo paced run that you treat as a race situation. Ideally, something like 8-9 weeks out. It would be a demanding workout, but you could potentially learn some valuable lessons.

Any possibility it's an electrolyte imbalance or hydration issue?

 

[SheHulk]

So is it a taste eversion? Or a feeling of fullness that leads to the nauseousness? Have you ever had a sugar overload similar to this when not running?

So timing wise, about every 45-50 minutes you take a GU (22g per). So you're taking about 30 g carbs per hour. From a tolerance standpoint, that seems quite low. The data says 60g carbs from a single source carb and 90-100g carbs is the maximal tolerance from double sourced, so to be at 30g would be a pretty far outlier. So my gut instinct would be that it isn't a maximal tolerance issue. Maybe instead of just relying on GU branching out to multiple different items might be beneficial as to switch up the consistency.

Surely mixing up the pre-race nutrition routine isn't great. Any way you can take your normal items with you on the airplane, or possibly order groceries to be delivered?

As for how to handle it in a training plan where the maximal run is 150 min, you could always practice on all the lesser runs (like we normally do), and then do a much longer run as a "B" race. So instead of a HM "B" race, you do a very long marathon tempo paced run that you treat as a race situation. Ideally, something like 8-9 weeks out. It would be a demanding workout, but you could potentially learn some valuable lessons.

Any possibility it's an electrolyte imbalance or hydration issue?

Not a taste aversion, my stomach actually turns like I might hurl. I thought it was related to the heat this past marathon weekend but I realized when I look back it seems to happen every time. I don't get this feeling when not running, like if I ate a giant dessert or something. I know I should plan pre-race meals better, and that's something I can fix.

Hmmm I'll definitely think about that idea of a longer training run when I ask for my next plan. I'm concerned about deviating from the workout you usually plan out that would be optimal. Maybe I'll just order some Maurten gels to start mixing it into my routine to see how it works.

I am perpetually dehydrated so I suppose that could do it. Do people get nauseous from dehydration?

 

[DopeyBadger]

Not a taste aversion, my stomach actually turns like I might hurl. I thought it was related to the heat this past marathon weekend but I realized when I look back it seems to happen every time. I don't get this feeling when not running, like if I ate a giant dessert or something. I know I should plan pre-race meals better, and that's something I can fix.

That's interesting. Not sure I can put my finger on it.

Hmmm I'll definitely think about that idea of a longer training run when I ask for my next plan. I'm concerned about deviating from the workout you usually plan out that would be optimal. Maybe I'll just order some Maurten gels to start mixing it into my routine to see how it works.

The tradeoff could be worth it. Because ideal training but then suffering a nauseous feeling mid-race is likely to wipe out that ideal training. So it's an important piece to the puzzle.

I am perpetually dehydrated so I suppose that could do it. Do people get nauseous from dehydration?

A quick google shows that a symptom of dehydration is nausea. Do you feel thirsty during your run? Most research seems to suggest thirst is the best indicator.

 

[SheHulk]

A quick google shows that a symptom of dehydration is nausea. Do you feel thirsty during your run? Most research seems to suggest thirst is the best indicator.

Now that I think of it, I dry-heaved at the end of my last 10k, which I was running at pretty hard effort, when I didn't take in any fuel at all. It was very hot though. I think you might be right and it might be more a dehydration/electrolyte issue. I drink one Swell bottle of water a day and walk around feeling like I'm a fitness all-star when I do, otherwise it's coffee and Diet Coke all day every day. That's probably the first change I should make. Thanks that really was helpful!

 

[michigandergirl]

@SheHulk I have a similar problem during marathons. I don't know if I would say I'm nauseous, but maybe slightly nauseous because I'm so hungry? It's more of a hunger for some real food or anything the opposite of sugary, because I am so over sugary after about 4 gels (I take them about every 5 miles). I think that is why beer and pickle juice are so appealing to me in the later miles.

 

[DopeyBadger]

Now that I think of it, I dry-heaved at the end of my last 10k, which I was running at pretty hard effort, when I didn't take in any fuel at all. It was very hot though. I think you might be right and it might be more a dehydration/electrolyte issue. I drink one Swell bottle of water a day and walk around feeling like I'm a fitness all-star when I do, otherwise it's coffee and Diet Coke all day every day. That's probably the first change I should make. Thanks that really was helpful!

@SheHulk I have a similar problem during marathons. I don't know if I would say I'm nauseous, but maybe slightly nauseous because I'm so hungry? It's more of a hunger for some real food or anything the opposite of sugary, because I am so over sugary after about 4 gels (I take them about every 5 miles). I think that is why beer and pickle juice are so appealing to me in the later miles.

A hunger issue might also go back to the day before diet and the pre race meal. It was a secondary reason for me switching to 50/50 on the WA protocol because I was feeling hungry during the races.

There definitely comes the point of aversion to gels. When I use to do my 4-6 hr bike rides I couldn’t just take in Tailwind the whole time. I wouldn’t say it necessarily made me feel sick, but I didn’t crave it. So I usually had a PB sandwich or PB/Choc Nature Valley bars during the long rides and they always tasted like heaven. I think we hear that from ultra runners as well craving real solid foods. I know post most marathons I crave salty foods.

 

[TheHamm]

I am perpetually dehydrated so I suppose that could do it. Do people get nauseous from dehydration?

Now that I think of it, I dry-heaved at the end of my last 10k, which I was running at pretty hard effort, when I didn't take in any fuel at all. It was very hot though. I think you might be right and it might be more a dehydration/electrolyte issue. I drink one Swell bottle of water a day and walk around feeling like I'm a fitness all-star when I do, otherwise it's coffee and Diet Coke all day every day. That's probably the first change I should make. Thanks that really was helpful!

The nausea, dry heaving, and dehydration can all be connected. I find this to be a problem for me when I am running and it is hot & humid as well as on long travel. When I was pregnant this was a large problem, and it was suggested I keep a tally of how much water I consumed. I found it helpful to put a piece of painters tape on my water container and put a hash mark on it each time I emptied it I was more aware of how much I was consuming.

 

[SheHulk]

@SheHulk I have a similar problem during marathons. I don't know if I would say I'm nauseous, but maybe slightly nauseous because I'm so hungry? It's more of a hunger for some real food or anything the opposite of sugary, because I am so over sugary after about 4 gels (I take them about every 5 miles). I think that is why beer and pickle juice are so appealing to me in the later miles.

Yeah vacation marathoning is probably not the best for my performance given how undisciplined I am in my diet generally, and especially at Disney. I ate a half patty melt and most of a No Way Jose the night before this last marathon, and then a donut the morning of the race. Could be simply sugared out and need a bit more variety over the course of the race.
Next marathon is Philadelphia and we have a condo in the city so I can just keep with my normal long run weekend fueling, no "have to have it" desserts or other special vacation food. Hopefully that will help.

A hunger issue might also go back to the day before diet and the pre race meal. It was a secondary reason for me switching to 50/50 on the WA protocol because I was feeling hungry during the races.

There definitely comes the point of aversion to gels. When I use to do my 4-6 hr bike rides I couldn’t just take in Tailwind the whole time. I wouldn’t say it necessarily made me feel sick, but I didn’t crave it. So I usually had a PB sandwich or PB/Choc Nature Valley bars during the long rides and they always tasted like heaven. I think we hear that from ultra runners as well craving real solid foods. I know post most marathons I crave salty foods.

Real food somewhere in there sounds like a great suggestion. And yes keeping to the normal, less terrible, training diet the weekend of the race.

The nausea, dry heaving, and dehydration can all be connected. I find this to be a problem for me when I am running and it is hot & humid as well as on long travel. When I was pregnant this was a large problem, and it was suggested I keep a tally of how much water I consumed. I found it helpful to put a piece of painters tape on my water container and put a hash mark on it each time I emptied it I was more aware of how much I was consuming.

Billy can tell you I write him at least twice a year, saying this is the year I get with the program on hydration. It never sticks. I'm drinking a Diet Coke right now, immediately after a run, as I type this. I need to start a training journal just to keep myself honest on hydration! I never need motivation to run, it's all the other stuff you need to do in order to progress. I keep an Excel spreadsheet every day with my weight, miles run, strength training, etc. and have a column for water drunk. But literally if I drink one 17 oz bottle I'm like, "OK that's checked off" maybe I need to up my daily goal there.

So many things that could be leading to this nausea! I need to start working on all of them.

 

[canglim52]

A lack of fluids with gels can lead to nausea and stomach cramps too. Also, as your body is stressed simple sugar can upset your stomach as well. I think either using different types of carbs, Gatorade, or a hydrogel Like Maurten are all possible solutions... though I’m no expert, I’ve had my fair share of stomach distress lol

 

[SheHulk]

Just saw your comments on another person's journal about needing to drink about 15 oz water for 30g of carbs... I googled for myself and man I don't do anything close to what's recommended! I never carry fluids on me in a race, so I drink one, maybe 2 of those little Dixie cups of water with each gel. Maybe that's a good place to start if I want to change things. Or just go with the Gatorade/Powerade on the course instead of a gel like @canglim52 said.

 

[canglim52]

Just saw your comments on another person's journal about needing to drink about 15 oz water for 30g of carbs... I googled for myself and man I don't do anything close to what's recommended! I never carry fluids on me in a race, so I drink one, maybe 2 of those little Dixie cups of water with each gel. Maybe that's a good place to start if I want to change things. Or just go with the Gatorade/Powerade on the course instead of a gel like @canglim52 said.

I would practice taking on water, personally I grab a cup at every stop. Also, I wouldn’t just drink Gatorade as I think you’ll end up short on carbs/calories and if you don’t take on water it’ll likely upset your stomach too. Late in races I’ll sometimes switch to Gatorade if I can’t stomach another gu, and that last Gatorade stop you can swish and spit and get the same boost as if you consumed carbs.

 

[DopeyBadger]

Just saw your comments on another person's journal about needing to drink about 15 oz water for 30g of carbs... I googled for myself and man I don't do anything close to what's recommended! I never carry fluids on me in a race, so I drink one, maybe 2 of those little Dixie cups of water with each gel. Maybe that's a good place to start if I want to change things. Or just go with the Gatorade/Powerade on the course instead of a gel like @canglim52 said.

Yea, a lack of hydration will definitely make you sick when trying to consume carbs.

I would practice taking on water, personally I grab a cup at every stop. Also, I wouldn’t just drink Gatorade as I think you’ll end up short on carbs/calories and if you don’t take on water it’ll likely upset your stomach too. Late in races I’ll sometimes switch to Gatorade if I can’t stomach another gu, and that last Gatorade stop you can swish and spit and get the same boost as if you consumed carbs.

All great advice! Gatorade is already at 2:1, so it can't be used as a replacement for consuming water when also taking in gels.

 

[DopeyBadger]

Week 10 of Mile Training + Some Cycling + Yoga Retreat

5/18/20 - M - OFF
5/19/20 - T - Yoga Retreat-Balance + [3.5 x 1000m w/ reduced RI + strides] (Run)
5/20/20 - W - Pettit-1 (60 min; 27 TSS) + 30 min @ Easy Run
5/21/20 - R - Gibbs (120 min; 82 TSS)
5/22/20 - F - Yoga Retreat-Flow + 49 min @ Easy Run
5/23/20 - Sa - One mile TT (Run)
5/24/20 - Su - Gibbs (120 min; 82 TSS) + Townsend-1 (90 min; 55 TSS)

Total Run Miles - 24.1 miles
Total Run Time - 3:41 hours
Total Run TSS - x TSS

Total Biking Time - 6:30 hours
Total Biking TSS - 244 TSS

Total Yoga Time - 1:00 hours
Total Yoga TSS - x TSS

Total Training Time - 11:11 hours
Total TSS - x TSS

Highlights
-Week 10 of mile training.
-Went to see the PT and she gave me some new exercises to try since the ones from last year weren't working. She seemed to think it was more of a muscular problem and less of an SI joint problem (which would explain why the stretches weren't helping as much). I was hoping for instant relief like I got last time, but unfortunately did not.

Did the following on Tuesday: [3.5 x 1000m w/ reduced RI + strides]

Goal was 5:40-5:55 min/mile range.

Splits were:
1000m = 3:39, 3:32, 3:37 (avg. = 3:36, 5:47 min/mile)

The run felt pretty good. Got a bit overzealous with rep #2 (3:32, 5:40 pace) which bled over into rep #3 when I only took it a half rep. I was on pace during the 0.5 rep, but it felt rough. But I rallied for the last interval with a 3:37. Got a new PR at 0.5 mile (2:49, 5:38 pace) and 1000m (3:32, 5:40 pace). As far as the run felt, it was awful. Other than when running fast, I could never get comfortable.

-On Wednesday, G and I did some 30/30 run/walk. The pain was terrible and I wasn't even able to keep up with G during the run portions (she was doing like 8 min/mile pace). We ended up averaging a 12 min/mile for 0.3 miles. She said she felt like she had a lot left in the tank so I'm thinking this 30/30 will suit her style well.

After that I did my own run and never got comfortable. I ended up calling it early and only did 30 min because it felt so miserable.

- @canglim52 was going to be in town this weekend so I shifted my training plan a bit and decided since I've got the fastest rabbit I know coming I might as well try a one mile TT! So on Friday I took it easy and did some strides. I just didn't feel comfortable during the strides.

-On Saturday morning we all got up bright and early and G wanted to join us. Based on Tuesday's I pace workout the Daniels calculator suggested a goal mile time of 5:18. So mentally, that's where we were aiming. We did about 2 miles (19 min) of warming up. Christian did strides and I did not. So far I've found the first rep has felt the best/smoothest for me so I was testing out running without ever pushing the pace prior. We were running on my looped course which enabled G to be able to run with us a few times. I set my watch to provide 200m splits during the mile so I could get some small details. A 5:21 mile would roughly be 40 sec 200m splits.



The first three 200m reps were right on target. I came through the 600m mark at 119.6 seconds which is 5:20.4 min/mile pace. But from there, the pace really fell off and maintained at a much slower pace. I ended up crossing the line at 5:42. That serves as a 20 second PR from my 6:02 run in May 2017. It's also 30 seconds faster than the 6:12 I ran on 2/28/20, or the 6:19 mile TT I ran on 4/13/19 during my build-up in training. So despite not hitting a 5:18, I have made a significant improvement in my ability to run the mile. During this I also ran a new 0.5 PR (2:42, 5:24 min/mile) and 1000m PR (3:25, 5:29 min/mile). I find it interesting what the 5:42 mile time says I'm capable of in longer distance races per Daniels:



5k PR is 19:27 (during Disney 10k so unofficial)
10k PR is 39:54
HM PR is 1:28:40
M PR is 3:14:05

So in the same general area. But I still feel like I've got more to give. It's nice to have the goal checked off and in the clubhouse. Now I can see how far I can actually take this. I've still got several weeks of training left and I'm not even into the peak phase where I'm race ready.

I had Steph film in iPhone 11 slo-mo which was kind of fun to watch. I want to thank @caglim52 for towing me through the mile. Thanks for helping me check off another goal!

79. Run a sub 6 minute mile - Completed 5/24/20 in a time of 5:42 with the help of @canglim52 and G!



On Sunday, time got away from us so I doubled up on cycling instead of cycling and then running in the afternoon. I'll see how I'm feeling after Tuesday's run as to whether I need to schedule another PT appointment this week or the next.

 

[DopeyBadger]

Week 11 of Mile Training + Some Cycling + Yoga Retreat

5/18/20 - M - OFF
5/19/20 - T - Yoga Retreat-Flow on the Go + [5 x 800m w/ alt. reduced RI + 4x150m] (Run)
5/20/20 - W - Pettit-1 (60 min; 27 TSS) + 45 min @ Easy Run
5/21/20 - R - Gibbs (120 min; 82 TSS)
5/22/20 - F - Yoga Retreat-Relax + [4 x 600m + 4 x 150m + 400m] (Run)
5/23/20 - Sa - Perkins-1 (120 min; 75 TSS)
5/24/20 - Su - Gibbs+1 (120 min; 91 TSS)

Total Run Miles - 18.6 miles
Total Run Time - 2:57 hours
Total Run TSS - x TSS

Total Biking Time - 7:00 hours
Total Biking TSS - 276 TSS

Total Yoga Time - 1:03 hours
Total Yoga TSS - x TSS

Total Training Time - 11:00 hours
Total TSS - x TSS

Highlights
-Week 11 of mile training.
-A struggle of a week because the PT exercises have offered no relief. If anything these past two weeks have hurt more, not less.

Did the following on Tuesday: [5 x 800m w/ alt. reduced RI + 4x150m]

Goal was 5:56 min/mile range based on the temps.

Splits were:
800m = 2:59, 3:03, 3:03, 3:11, 3:11 (avg. = 3:05, 6:10 min/mile)
150m = 38.2, 31.8, 33.8, 35.5 (avg. = 34.8s, 6:12 min/mile)

It was the hottest training run of the season thus far, and it fell on a speed day which isn't a great combo. The adjusted paces based on temp suggested around a 5:56 min/mile, but I couldn't get anywhere close to that. Add to it, that my body just didn't feel good running, and it ended up being a blah workout. Clearly things were not going right since my average pace on the 150m was 6:12 or almost a full min/mile slower than some of my first ones back in March (30.6s avg vs 34.8s).

-Tried to take it nice and slow on Wednesday and everything still didn't feel all that great.

-Did the following on Friday: [4 x 600m + 4 x 150m + 400m]

Splits were:
600m = 125.7, 121.9, 125.1, 127.9 (avg. = 125.1s, 5:35 min/mile)
150m = 30.4, 30.1, 29.7, 29.9 (avg. = 30.0s, 5:22 min/mile)
400m = 80.8 (5:25 min/mile)

Looking at the forecast, Sunday looked like the last nice day of Spring. So I considered doing another time trial Sunday morning based on how this run on Friday felt. The temps were not bad (T+D near 110). Unfortunately, this was the slowest R paced run to date for 600m reps by a wide margin. My legs just never felt like they had that pop to them, and I could tell I was compensating for my back/upper leg soreness. In post run review, it's clear I can't get my cadence up as high as I was just a few weeks ago. And it feels like I'm favoring towards my right leg. So after this run, I decided to shut running down for a little bit and head back to the PT again. It feels like I'm only making things worse by trying to continue to run on it since things feel worse than they did a few weeks ago. Where I used to be able to run hard through the issue, now I can feel it causing issues in my form. Certainly a bummer because I felt like I was making tremendous progress. I'm thankful for the impromptu mile time trial though with @canglim52 as it did allow me to reach the goal of the training plan with a sub-6.

I'll head back to the PT soon, and probably take it easy on cycling/strength in the mean time. Then see where I'm at to get an idea as to what I want to train towards next or whether I feel like I can try and drop back/restart on this mile training.

 

[col1]

Rehabbing injury’s are tough almost as hard mentally as physically, I hope it’s not to long until you are healed, stay safe

 

[DopeyBadger]

Rehabbing injury’s are tough almost as hard mentally as physically, I hope it’s not to long until you are healed, stay safe

Thanks, I appreciate it.

 

[canglim52]

Heal up Billy! I‘M confident that had you been healthy the mile TT probably would have been even faster

 

[DopeyBadger]

Heal up Billy! I‘M confident that had you been healthy the mile TT probably would have been even faster

Thanks man! Agreed. PT agreed, no running for a week and extremely reduced running for some time upon return. The exercises corrected the issues she saw in the last appointment, except those weren't the issues causing the problem. Now we're thinking it might have to do with hamstring inflexibility and hip weakness that I think was similar to what you were describing where my knees cave inwards when doing a squat. So probably won't get the chance for another time trial anytime soon, but I'll be proud of the 5:42 (for now).

 

[canglim52]

Thanks man! Agreed. PT agreed, no running for a week and extremely reduced running for some time upon return. The exercises corrected the issues she saw in the last appointment, except those weren't the issues causing the problem. Now we're thinking it might have to do with hamstring inflexibility and hip weakness that I think was similar to what you were describing where my knees cave inwards when doing a squat. So probably won't get the chance for another time trial anytime soon, but I'll be proud of the 5:42 (for now).

In my humble opinion I’d say hip flexibility over hamstring flexibility. Kipchoge can’t even touch his toes lol. Usually a strained hamstring is due to compensation not tightness. However I’d say the proprioception on those hip stretches are everything. I’d YouTube the proper form, that is always one of the most important pieces for my back/si joint health. If my hips (and shoulders) aren’t moving well it doesn’t matter how strong I am. Also, if it starts getting easier there is a cool variation you can do with a monster band. The monster band lunges we were talking about are amazing for keeping that knee from diving in. If you need me to find videos for these let me know. Lastly, planks and bridges are staples, but the form matters more than the duration and reps. Everything we do in strength training is about about building the mind muscle connection, otherwise it’s not functional. Again not a PT, but certainly have a lot of experience with Si joint/back issues with my scoliosis/functionally short leg Sorry to hear you can’t run right now, but I know you’ll bounce back stronger than ever

 

[dobball23]

Thanks man! Agreed. PT agreed, no running for a week and extremely reduced running for some time upon return. The exercises corrected the issues she saw in the last appointment, except those weren't the issues causing the problem. Now we're thinking it might have to do with hamstring inflexibility and hip weakness that I think was similar to what you were describing where my knees cave inwards when doing a squat. So probably won't get the chance for another time trial anytime soon, but I'll be proud of the 5:42 (for now).

Good luck getting healthy!

While it stinks needing to go to PT, if you're like me, you'll enjoy the sessions. There's always a little bit of me that is disappointed when I get healthy and need to stop going to PT.