Timing is everything, isn't it? (political thread)

[Briar Rose 7457]

you know, that's true -- if you bribe a judge, both you and the judge can be arrested.

if you improperly try to influence a court through "legal" means, your ethics are as questionable as the those of a judge who allows him or herself to be influenced.


and as an aside, Brenda -- even assuming the decision was the "right" one, considering the alternative was to place the election into the House (and that the recount wouldn't have mattered anyhow -- it was still one based on politics, not law. not always a "bad" thing, but very clearly the reality of what happened four years ago.

 

[ThAnswr]

Originally posted by Melora
Funny how some people (Bush supporters) are still so touchy about that unfortunate decision.

Of course, they're touchy. They tried to make a political titan out of a 1-term governor of Texas and a President out of a 5-4 SC decision.

Funny how a majority of the American voters saw it differently in 2000, but they just want to put that on the side. Now that the American voter was proven right, they start pointing fingers at those same voters.

Oh yeah, this ought to be a dandy of a political season.

 

[ThAnswr]

Originally posted by Melora
I totally agree with you and its very frustrating watching some aspects of out government in action....

We've got a chance to right the wrongs on election day.

 

[Briar Rose 7457]

no fair! I want to talk about Padilla!

 

[Eeyore1954]

Originally posted by Briar Rose 7457
but the release of the information does raise another interesting point --- if the material can be declassified, why is Padilla being held without charges, without a trial date, etc.? wasn't the justification for his secret imprisonment the "sensitive nature" of the material?

and doesn't the release of the information mena the government can now go ahead and charge him and try him, rendering his secret improsonment moot?

Padilla is being held as an "enemy combatant." The gov't. is waiting for the SC to rule on whether they can indefinitely hold a U.S. citizen as an "enemy combatant" -- a decision that is expected this month. (This was covered by CBS, NBC and ABC on the evening news last night).

BTW, his imprisonment is hardly a secret, except maybe for the location. People have known for nearly 2 years that he's been held as an enemy combatant.

 

[Eeyore1954]

Originally posted by ThAnswr
Wrong again, AFR.

The problem is not only with the court, but the ones attempting to do the influencing through the release of information.

Like BR said, I seriously doubt the court can be influenced at this late date with decisions on this case probably made, drafts written, circulated, rewritten and proofed. Heck, the decisions are probably being printed or are already printed. The justices don't decide cases like this at the last minute, so releasing the information now is not going to change their minds.

More than likely it is a preemptive effort by the Administration in case the court rules against them and they are not allowed to hold Padilla as an enemy combatant any longer.

 

[Briar Rose 7457]

fox news article

 

[Eeyore1954]

Originally posted by Briar Rose 7457
no fair! I want to talk about Padilla!

I'm trying to ...

 

[ThAnswr]

Originally posted by Van Helsing
DawnCt1 its always feels great to be on the side of good

Ain't it the truth!

 

[Briar Rose 7457]

eeyore, i used the word "secret" as a pejorative.

yes, we all know he's being held indefinitely. yes we all know where he's being held.

but he's being held incommunicado. with no idea that he even had a lawyer to represent him until just before the Supreme Court argument. from his viewpoint it must be "secret detention".

 

[Eeyore1954]

Originally posted by Briar Rose 7457
eeyore, i used the word "secret" as a pejorative.

yes, we all know he's being held indefinitely. yes we all know where he's being held.

but he's being held incommunicado. with no idea that he even had a lawyer to represent him until just before the Supreme Court argument. from his viewpoint it must be "secret detention".

Sorry ... I mis-read the pejorative part. My brain must not be engaged yet

I agree it is a "secret detention", but he admitted to attempting to commit terrorist acts on U.S. soil. I am not thrilled that he, as a U.S. citizen, is being held without access to his lawyer, however, I am willing to wait for the SC to rule on the Administration's request to proceed with this strategy. If they uphold this, I will be very interested to see how it is used, because I am afraid it could end up being abused all too easily.

 

[ThAnswr]

Originally posted by Briar Rose 7457
no fair! I want to talk about Padilla!

You're right. My apologies.

This is everything we have to know about Jose Padilla. He was an American citizen, snatched up by this government at a Chicago airport, thrown into jail at an unknown location, was held incommunicado, was not charged with any crime, was not allowed to see a lawyer, and so this administration could cover their ***, was declared an enemy combatant.

Now, this administration felt the need to release information to prove to the American public they were right all along.

You couldn't make this stuff up.

 

[Briar Rose 7457]

exactly.

 

[ThAnswr]

Originally posted by Eeyore1954
Sorry ... I mis-read the pejorative part. My brain must not be engaged yet

I agree it is a "secret detention", but he admitted to attempting to commit terrorist acts on U.S. soil.

The Constitution provides both a description and a penalty...........it's called treason and the penalty is death.

I'll take the good judgement of the Founding Fathers anyday over this administration.

Originally posted by Eeyore1954
I am not thrilled that he, as a U.S. citizen, is being held without access to his lawyer, however, I am willing to wait for the SC to rule on the Administration's request to proceed with this strategy.

I don't understand how any American citizen can be secretly held without access to a lawyer. That's tyranny not the USA.

Originally posted by Eeyore1954
If they uphold this, I will be very interested to see how it is used, because I am afraid it could end up being abused all too easily.

Next time, it could me or you or any number of people. And, I have no doubt in my mind, this administration would take full advantage of the upheld decision.

 

[Briar Rose 7457]

ever see photos of the Throgs Neck Bridge? the Whiitestone? the Verrazano? they're beautiful architechural examples of suspension bridges. people love to photograph them.


I read an article in the newspaper several months ago. a photography student was taking shots of one of the bridges for his class.

he was vaguely "Arab-looking". someone wrote down his license plat number and reported "suspicious activity."

the police took him into custody and questioned him, then let him go.

scary to think that could happen. and what if they'd labelled him an "enemy combatant"?

 

[cheyita]

I'm not going to post on the politics of the timing of the announcement - only my take on Padilla in general.

I do agree in concept that the detainment of a U.S. citizen for two years without formal charge or access to a lawyer is a frightening thought and against everything I was taught.

An even more frightening thought to me would have been Padilla being released before all the information was gathered and he was then able to follow through on some horrendous act of terror.

But I am ignorant to some of the details - did they have enough on him at the time they took him at O'Hare to have charged him with *something* that would have kept him behind bars, with access to a lawyer? If they did not, and he was allowed to go on his merry way, then we'd have the inquiry as to why our government didn't do more to stop him.

Please - don't tear me up. I honestly haven't paid enough attention to Padilla to know some keys elements.

I suppose (I'm thinking out loud here) that if he was charged with something, having legal representation could interfere with the government's ability to question him on a variety of things that are crucial to our security efforts...

 

[Eeyore1954]

Originally posted by ThAnswr
This is everything we have to know about Jose Padilla. He was an American citizen, snatched up by this government at a Chicago airport, thrown into jail at an unknown location, was held incommunicado, was not charged with any crime, was not allowed to see a lawyer, and so this administration could cover their ***, was declared an enemy combatant.

Now, this administration felt the need to release information to prove to the American public they were right all along.

You couldn't make this stuff up.

I believe you're attempting to re-write history here. Padilla was declared an enemy combatant shortly after he was arrested. This declaration is nothing new.

 

[Eeyore1954]

Originally posted by ThAnswr
The Constitution provides both a description and a penalty...........it's called treason and the penalty is death.

The Constitution did not foresee the type of activity Padilla was involved in. I don't believe terrorist acts fall under the definition/umbrella of treason. Padilla was not attempting to overthrow the U.S. government; he admitted he was simply trying to kill as many Americans as he could through whatever means were available to him.

I'll take the good judgement of the Founding Fathers anyday over this administration.

Too bad they are not around to speak for themselves, otherwise this would make sense to me. What we are left with is interpreting what they wrote in light of the circumstances we face as a nation today. That's the role of the SC and they seem quite capable of handling this task.

I don't understand how any American citizen can be secretly held without access to a lawyer. That's tyranny not the USA.

I don't understand it either, however, until the SC rules, I hesitantly support the Administration on this point.

Next time, it could me or you or any number of people. And, I have no doubt in my mind, this administration would take full advantage of the upheld decision.

This is quite true and very frightening to consider. In many ways, I hope the SC strikes down this attempt to usurp basic civil liberties all U.S. citizens hold dear. I agree that if this is upheld it would be way too easy to abuse, not just by this Administration, but by any administration, regardless of party affiliation.

 

[DawnCt1]

Originally posted by ThAnswr
We've got a chance to right the wrongs on election day.

And John Kerry is just your man. Didn't I hear that he flipped the bird to Mr. Samply, the head of Viet Nam Vets against John Kerry? In front of school children no less.

 

[MICKEY88]

Originally posted by DawnCt1
And John Kerry is just your man. Didn't I hear that he flipped the bird to Mr. Samply, the head of Viet Nam Vets against John Kerry? In front of school children no less.