Tiki tiki tiki tiki tiki run (comments welcome)

[Cabius]

My PRs are getting 'chorter and 'chorter.

(And what darlin' people I have runnin' next to me.)

Oh, look at all the people!

Welcome to Caleb's Enchanted Tiki Run.

About Me / Race History
As of summer 2022, I'm in my late-30s and live in the Dallas, TX area with my wife and three kids, the youngest of whom is only a few months old.

I had never been athletic in my life -- in fact I'm not sure I ever ran a single mile in my entire life -- until the spring of 2019 when I signed up for my first RunDisney Half-Marathon.

We'd been to Walt Disney World a couple of times by then, and my wife said that she wasn't sure about making it an annual tradition. There are so many other places we could go, she said. Maybe we should skip a year or two, she said.

Hmm...

I had heard about the WDW Half Marathon from the WDW Radio podcast, and listening to runners talk about running up Main Street USA sounded absolutely magic. At the same time, I was 5'11" and 215 pounds, and we'd talked about how I really needed to get in shape. I figured that WDW is the only think I love more than I hate exercise, right? Maybe that would be enough motivation to get some running shoes and get in shape.

So my wife agreed that we'd go back to Walt Disney World in 2020 *if* I signed up for the half-marathon, and the rest is history!

2020 Half Marathon
I had no clue what I was doing, so I just started running through the greenbelt park near my house a few minutes at a time. I still remember how proud I was when I ran an entire mile at one time! A few weeks later, I was going 5k, then 10k, as I built speed and stamina.

I had a bad tendency to run flat-out every time I laced up my shoes, which meant I wasn't as consistent as I should've been, but nevertheless from an absolute couch potato start I got into good enough shape to cross the finish line just under my 2:45 goal. (Okay, that was a backup goal. I was *hoping* for a sub-2:30. But I was still happy.)



The highlight of this race for me was running up Main Street USA. That was the moment I was looking for, the reason I signed up and spent hundreds of hours training for this race. I'm not embarrassed to admit that I started absolutely bawling the moment I turned into Town Square, and didn't stop snotty-ugly-crying until I passed under the Tomorrowland bridge. It was so, so worth it.

We Don't Talk About Covid
I kept training after that half-marathon, and was really getting into pretty good shape, with a 1:01:26 10k race in February, and a 2:36:48 Half Marathon in April -- the latter a virtual race on my own.

But as Covid dragged on, and as my workload exploded that summer and fall, I struggled to exercise with any consistency. I regained most of the weight I had lost, and lost many of the gains I had made in pace and endurance. I ran the 2021 virtual half marathon, but at 2:49:40 it was my worst time to date.

2022 Marathon
Undeterred, I signed up for the 2022 marathon anyway. This time, I did "just" the full marathon. And I finished, barely, with a 6:17:33 time.

My training honestly went pretty well from August 2021 onward. I learned from the folks on this forum that I should "train slow to run fast" and was getting our 4-6 days a week. 6-mile easy runs were becoming routine, and while I wasn't particularly fast, I felt good.

Then, 4 weeks before marathon weekend, I completed a 20-mile long run (5 hours!) and came home with a sore and swollen right foot. A few days rest and a trip to the podiatrist told me that I likely hadn't broken anything, but had developed posterior tibial tendonitis. I was told to rest my foot until the marathon, and that while it may well recur during the race, I wasn't risking long-term injury in doing so.

So after a 4-week "cold turkey" taper, I ran the first 18 miles of the marathon, and limped the last 8.

I felt pretty lousy at times...


But I finished.

(Also pictured - @marty3d)

2023 Marathon
I took a few months off to let my foot recover, other than some exercises that my podiatrist gave me. During that time I've focused on flexibility and weight loss -- on the theory that everything about distance running is easier if I'm hauling less of my own fat butt around. I've dropped back down below 190, with a goal weight of ~170 by the end of the year.

I added running back in starting in April 2022, and now I'm signed up for "just" another full marathon in 2023. I've learned a lot in the past few years, both from experience and from the helpful folks like @DopeyBadger on these boards, and I'm excited to run -- not limp -- across the finish line next year!


Training Style
I typically run 3-5 times a week, and will ramp up to 6 days/week over the next few months of training. Each run has a purpose in my training plan - mostly easy miles, with a weekly long run and a few shorter Interval and Tempo runs mixed in.

When running I primarily focus on heart rate rather than pace to make sure each run does what it's supposed to do. This was a hard lesson for me to learn, but I do this to resist the urge to run faster than I should, especially in brutal Texas summer heat. I have a tendency to be disappointed in myself if I can't maintain a target pace, either because of weather or because I'm having an off day, so focusing on heart rate is helpful for me here. I know whether my run was really an "Easy" run regardless of how fast I went.

I prefer to run outdoors. I live next to a set of greenbelt parks that afford many miles of paved walking/running/biking trail, which is where I usually go out. It's pretty easy to build routes from 3 to 8 miles on those trails, with some residential neighborhood areas mixed in for longer distances. It's mostly flat with some gentle slopes, but there are a couple of hills in the mix if I want them. All in all, it's a pretty ideal place when the weather is nice.

HA! HAHAHA! Weather?? Nice??? Oh you poor sweet ignorant baby. You wee bairn. This is Texas, and it is summer. "Nice" is 80 degrees with a 70-degree dew point at 6AM. And that's if you can go out in the morning -- with an infant baby still not sleeping through the night, that can be difficulty. At night, it's 90+ degrees outside at 10PM. So I've also joined my local LA Fitness, but I hate running on treadmills. Please let this part be over soon.

I really don't do much cross-training at all. I know that I should. I don't. When you're as slow as I am, running 5 or 6 miles is a major time commitment, and it's all I can do to build up to 35-40 miles a week without completely neglecting my family. (Plus, I hate exercise. Rememeber, that's why I picked RunDisney in the first place!) The one exception is stretching exercises from YogaBody to improve flexibility and reduce risk of injury. I do the whole range of exercises, but tend to focus most on the legs (esp. hamstrings and hips).

I use Strava for run tracking, with data from my Apple Watch. (I have a chest strap heart rate monitor as well, but as the results are typically very close to the Apple Watch I don't often use it.) Strava is how I track progress during a run, as well as keep track of trends and PRs. I do copy race information into a Google Sheet as well so I can build more trend data than Strava has built-in.

I run in Nike Pegasus Zoom series shoes, though I will look into insoles or orthotics to help with my low arches to prevent recurring tendonitis.

I pay a lot of attention to my VO2 Max as estimated by my Apple Watch. This was a big focus for me in the spring and early summer before I started marathon training in earnest, with HIIT runs once or twice a week. I have no idea if the estimates are very accurate, but I figure that the trend is going to be directionally correct, and it jibes with the changes I see in my own performance over the past few. I threw myself a little party when I graduated to "below average," and have been glad to see that progressing.

My VO2 Max chart as of July 2022


I also have the AirFit Pro breathing device/app. That's probably overkill at my level of fitness. I asked for advice on this forum, and the responses said it was unnecessary and dumb, and I bought it anyway. It's like my tattoo says: NO REGERTS!


Goals
I'll track fitness goals in this section. As I complete goals, I'll edit this post and cross them off this list. I may also add new ones over time, but I suspect that some of these will be lifelong white whales!

• 1 mile - PR 8:38 (March 10 2020)
  • Any time 13:00 (June 17, 2019)
  • 1 mile < 10 min
  • 1 mile < 9 min
  • 1 mile < 8 min
• 5k - PR 29:48 (Feb 29, 2020)
  • Any time 43:17 (August 6, 2019)
  • 5k < 30 min
  • 5k < 25 min
• 10k - PR 1:01:26 (Feb 29, 2020)
  • Any time 1:17:25 (August 24, 2019)
  • 10k < 1 hr
  • 10k < 55 min
• Half Marathon - PR 2:23:46 (September 25, 2022)
  • Any time 2:44:48 (January 11, 2020)
  • Half Marathon < 2:45 2:44:48 (January 11, 2020)
  • Half Marathon < 2:30 2:23:46 (September 25, 2022)
  • Half Marathon < 2:15
  • Half Marathon < 2:00
• Full Marathon - PR 4:55:48 (January 8, 2023)
  • Any time 6:17:33 (January 9, 2022)
  • Full Marathon < 6:00 (January 8, 2023)
  • Full Marathon < 5:30 (January 8, 2023)
  • Full Marathon < 5:00 (January 8, 2023)
• Weight Goals
  • < 210 pounds (June 2019)
  • < 200 pounds (August 2019) (March 2022)
  • <190 pounds (April 2020) (July 2022)
  • <180 pounds
  • <170 pounds

Thanks for Reading
So that's me! I'll share details of my 2023 Marathon training plan in a follow-up post, but in the meantime: thanks for reading, and for all the advice these past few years.

I'll be using this journal to post mostly-weekly updates on my progress. I welcome any comments, corrections, or notes of encouragement as I fight the long losing battle against the one enemy who will take us all down in the end: death.

 

[GollyGadget]

I’ve had the pleasure of running down Main Street four times but I still cry every time! I don’t consider myself an emotional person but running and Disney both have a stronghold in my heart.

What determination to finish that marathon! Plus now you’ve learned so much, and as long as you heed those lessons, you’ll have a much more enjoyable second marathon.

 

[DopeyBadger]

Congrats on starting a training journal!

 

[Cabius]

2023 Marathon Training Plan

With the 2023 WDW Marathon just under 6 months away, I've officially started my 26-week training plan! It may have started off with a bit of a whimper, due to a combination of work travel, mild illness, and the absolutely brutal Texas heat, but it's started.

Guiding Principles
In designing this plan, I've attempted to follow a few guiding principles in order to avoid repeating the mistakes of the past. This time I'll make brand-new mistakes instead!

1. Focus on staying within the appropriate HR Zone for each run
I learned "train slow to run fast" late in my 2022 marathon training plan, and it really did make a difference in my progression and conditioning. Even still, a lot of my easy and long runs crept up too high in terms of heart rate in order to hit (or slightly push) my pace targets. Focusing on pace as my target and success metric -- even a much slower pace than I'd been previously targeting - still wasn't idea. A lot of my runs were just too fast.

This time, I'm focusing more on heart rate zones. I don't recall from which site I grabbed this screenshot, but these are the targets I'm using based on my Max HR and resting HR:



(Last week I was discouraged because I had been calculating HR Zones based on % of max heart rate, and found that even the slowest jog possible pushed me above my "easy" zone target. These calculations are more realistic, and also feel easy and conversational while I'm doing them.)

I will still track pace, mostly to evaluate progression over time, but it is secondary. I'd like to know if my "easy" runs get faster on average over time, but it's only a retrospective/trending metric. As much as possible, I won't look at pace while I'm running, or consider a run successful/unsuccessful based on the pace. (If anything, pushing my "easy" runs into a zone 3 pace makes it less successful.)

2. 80%+ of training should be in Zone 2
All Easy and Long runs should target this heart rate zone, with long runs at a slightly lower pace to account for cumulative fatigue. For me, that probably looks like a 13:30/mile long run and a 13:15/mile easy run, but I'll figure that out as I go. It's so hot in Texas this summer that even for a sunrise run, those times will be much slower. And that's fine.

These slower runs should account for 80% or more of my training -- though tbh I'm not sure if this should be calculated by time or by mileage.

3. Fast runs should be fast
I'm not the fastest runner in the world -- my fastest recent 1-mile was 9:20, and my all-time PR was 8:38 -- but that's fine. When I say "fast" I really mean "in Zone 4 or Zone 5". So I'll be mixing in Tempo and Interval runs for the remaining <20%. These will be shorter distances, but should be run at a genuinely faster pace. That probably looks like an 11:15-11:30 tempo run. For intervals, I've alternated between 5x60sec or 10x30sec sprints with varying lengths of rest as I figure out what I'm safely capable of doing.

4. Cumulative miles matter, not just long runs
Because I'm relatively slow, I will really need to focus on cumulative mileage rather than just one long run per week. Last year, I built toward a 20-mile long run that took me 5+ hours and left me injured. This year, I'll cap my longest run at around 3 hours (about 13-15 miles?) to limit risk of injury. That means that my easy runs may need to be relatively longer in order to build the cumulative mileage I want -- ideally 30-40 miles/week. At the apex, I may run 8- to 12-mile long runs and 5- to 6-mile easy runs.

5. Keep losing weight
I'm losing weight to help w/ running, rather than vice versus: everything about running is easier if I'm lighter and faster! I'm already about 10 pounds lighter than I was last marathon, with a conservative goal of losing 15-20 pounds more in the next 6 months. That's a ~500 calorie/day deficit, which creates a bit of a balancing act: I need to maintain that deficit, but also need to make sure I'm fueled for my runs. I'm leaning how to front-load carbs and follow up with protein within the framework of my overall diet.

Goals
My plan builds toward the 2023 WDW Marathon, but also includes a "B" race - the Plano Balloon Festival half-marathon on September 25th.

My goals for the Marathon are:

• Move my body over the finish line under my own power...
• ... in less than 6:00 (13:44/mile pace) -- doable
• ... in less than 5:30 (12:35/mile pace) -- stretch
• ... in less than 5:00 (11:27/mile pace) -- moonshot?

My goals for my "B" race are:

• Move my body over the finish line under my own power
• TBD

I'd like to bet my PR (2:36:05) and would love to finish in under 2:30. I'd also like to use it as an opportunity to take stock of my progress toward my marathon goals. However, I worry that the weather in late September will still be much too harsh to deliver a best effort. I will likely wait until a few weeks beforehand to decide whether to taper down for the race, or just treat it like a 13-mile long run.

The Plan
I used a previous plan from marathonhandbook.com as a baseline for my spreadsheet, but adapted it very heavily. You can view the entire plan here, but I'll share the highlights below.

I'm building from a base of about 15 miles/week, with 5-6 mile long runs and 3-4 mile easy runs. This will increase by a few miles per week, with some variation to accommodate travel schedules and periodic ease-off weeks.

Overall miles per week looks like this (with hot pink lines denoting the Half- and Full-Marathon weeks)



And here's cumulative miles over the next 6 months



Typical Week
I aim to do long runs on Sundays, followed by a rest day and then alternating Rest and Interval/Tempo days for the rest of the week. A typical week on November will look something like this.

• Long Run - 10 miles
• Rest
• Easy - 6 miles
• Interval - 2 miles
• Recovery - 6 miles
• Tempo - 4 miles
• Easy - 6 miles

Of course this isn't typical now. At this point I'm running 4 days/week at about half of that total mileage, doing only one fast run per week, etc. That will grow over time, but at my pace, the time commitment puts a ceiling at about 40 miles/week;. Even that may be optimistic about the frequency with which I can get out of the house, but we'll see!

Questions & Concerns
I do wonder if my plan ramps up too aggressively to begin with, but part of that is that I don't expect that I will be fully consistent, at least at first, and in actuality will ramp up more slowly. I'll have to review each upcoming week based on the prior week's actual mileage to make sure I don't ramp up too much each week.

As I mentioned earlier, I'm also not sure about whether to taper at all for my half-marathon or just treat it like a training run, which really depends on whether the weather will make a PR remotely feasible. I'll also be on vacation for the two weeks leading up to that race, so I may end up cutting back on running anyway. (Though I do love running through San Diego neighborhoods...)

Finally, I'm a little unsure about the Interval / Recovery / Tempo sandwich that I have as standard once I'm fully ramped up. If I find that too tiring, I may drop back to one (slightly longer?) fast run per week, alternating between intervals and tempo, and bumping up my easy mileage.

===

Thanks all for reading -- I'm excited to have this all pulled together, and to keep learning as I go through the next 6 months!

 

[lookingforsunshine]

I look forward to your journal! Your tattoo joke made me laugh.

 

[Cabius]

2022-07-21 - Mid-week check-in

9 weeks until my "B" half-marathon. I've completed 12.6 miles against my plan of 12.0 across three runs.


The Good
-- I drafted this plan and started this journal
-- I've completed my miles
-- I think I've been disciplined and kept appropriate pace for my slow runs (HR in target range, breathing through nose, fairly conversational)
-- I haven't been too discouraged about how slow that pace is
-- I feel great today, with lots of energy and no dead legs

The Bad
-- The heat is absolutely unforgiving and unforgivable, with a high of 111 yesterday (!!!) and overnight lows in the mid-80s (!!!!)
-- My sleep has been terrible, with a four-month-old baby waking up constantly (and his 3-year-old sister jumping on the bandwagon for good measure). This has had a huge impact: after a lousy night's sleep on Monday, my Tuesday run was super slow to maintain an easy effort. I was so tired on Wednesday I postponed that run. (I'm glad I left extra rest days as I ramp up my schedule!) But after getting 7 almost-uninterrupted hours of sleep last night, my outdoor run this morning felt great. I was 30 seconds/mile faster than Tuesday's treadmill run, despite running outdoors with a T+D of over 150.

Lessons & Adjustments
-- We're doing proper sleep training with the baby now, and hoping that he settles down a bit so my wife and I can both get more sleep. Going to bed earlier in the interim, and lowering expectations for performance on sleep-deprived days.
-- In terms of running, I'm encouraged and will keep doing what I'm doing. Gotta accumulate easy miles, and that takes time to do safely.
-- I really wildly prefer outdoor runs, even with a T+D of 150 or more, versus treadmills. I really need to try and get out early in the morning when it's still "only" 85 or so.
-- I had been really good about doing stretches for a few weeks, but slacked off when I went on a business trip. I will start that back up tonight.

Contemporaneous Running Notes
7/17 Indoor long run indoor.
Miscalculated HR target (thought 136 was my ceiling) so could only manage 15:11 pace. Should be 137-151 (MHR = 195, RHR = 50) so I can push a bit more next time. As frustratingly slow as it was, I'm proud of myself for being disciplined enough to focus on HR target vs pace.

7/19 Indoor easy run
This was... fine. Still pretty slow relative to my fitness a couple of months ago, but I kept it at an easy pace and got some miles in. So tired.

7/21 Outdoor Easy Run
I prefer outdoor runs so much. Even with high T+D I was faster and felt better than in my last 2 indoor easy runs. Started out at a really good average pace (13:15 at the 1.5 mile mark) but slowed down as I went along and my HR climbed into the low 150s. Doesn't help that my runs start downhill and end uphill. Still, it's a big relief after being so discouraged in my last two indoor runs.

 

[Cabius]

2022-07-23 End-of-week Summary
This week I completed 18.8 miles against my plan of 18.0 across five runs.


The Good
-- I kinda sorta don't mind absolutely abysmal heat? I went out at 93 degrees (65 dew point) and it was okay.
-- Sleep training is going pretty well, and I've been sleeping better. Probably averaged 6-7 hours of sleep and only ~2 interruptions per night.
-- My last two runs of the week felt great and met or exceeded my pace targets.

I was a bit discouraged the first half of the week that I was in worse condition than I thought. Not too discouraged, as I noted in my prior post, but I was really underperforming my estimated pace-to-HR targets in those runs. I focused on putting in the miles, knowing that it would get me across the finish line. But I thought I was in better shape than that! Just 2 months ago, I ran 5k at a 10:52/mile pace @ 160bpm. That wasn't even a race! Did that conditioning disappear so fast???

But in the last couple of runs, I've stayed in my HR targets (the most important thing) and actually met or exceeded my pace estimates (less important, but really encouraging)!

I've been sleeping better, as I said, and have a few more days' separation from last week's cold, so I'm hopeful that this is more indicative of my real performance right now.

The Bad
-- The heat is still truly wicked. Just a few more months, hopefully.

Lessons & Adjustments
-- I definitely would've skipped at least one of my last two days' runs, except I knew I was going to post to this journal and didn't want to be semi-publicly lame. Yay accountability, even in its softest and most supportive form!
-- Still haven't picked my stretching exercises back up. Derp.

7/22 outdoor tempo run
Planned: 2 miles @166-181bpm (11:30/mile pace)
Actual: 2.25 miles @ 169 bpm (10:18/mile pace)

What a magnificent run! Despite T&D of almost 160, I blasted past my pace target while still easily keeping my HR in my target zone. Started out super fast -- < 9 min/mile for the first quarter mile (admittedly a downhill stretch) but even after adjusting, I was going faster than I expected. I actually checked my watch twice to make sure it wasn't set to minutes/kilometer instead.

I thought my tempo pace was 11:15/mile or so, and that in this heat I wouldn't do better than 12:00/mile. But 10:15/mile felt really good! Splits were 9:41 @ 164bpm and 10:41 at 172bpm, with the last quarter-mile 10:46 @ 176bpm -- fairly consistent with the previous full mile. I think I could've maintained that pace for a while longer, but I'm trying to limit tempo time and mileage as I ramp up. In less insane heat, this might've easily been a 10:00/mile tempo pace at the ~170bpm zone.

The confounding thing is that my easy pace is so much slower than it seems like it should be, given this. How can I run 10:15/mile @ 170bpm but going faster than 14:00/mile bumps my HR over 150? Better anaerobic fitness than aerobic fitness? More energy wasted in up-and-down lumbering at very slow gaits?

7/23 indoor easy run
Planned: 4 miles @ 137-152bpm (13:15/mile - 14:15/mile pace)
Actual: 4 miles @ 142 bpm (13:29/mile pace)

Back on the treadmill for 4 easy miles. This was scheduled as a recovery run, but my legs feel strong so I felt okay targeting more of an easy pace -- targeting HR in the low-to-mid 140s.

After my awful indoor runs earlier this week, this time, at a 13:29/mile pace I was well within my target HR zone! I only inched near 150bpm when I dropped speed down to 12:45/mile. Compare Tuesday (14:32 for 3.5 miles @ 147bpm) vs today (13:29 for 4.0 miles @ 142bpm.) What a difference it makes to (mostly) get enough sleep and to be a few more days distant from last week's cold.

 

[Herding_Cats]

I can totally commiserate on the little kids and sleep challenges. Only 1 out of 4 of my kids was a good sleeper when they were little, and my nearly-3 year old still doesn’t STTN. Getting a good night of sleep makes me feel amazing I’m guessing you’ll start noticing the same.

 

[DopeyBadger]

The confounding thing is that my easy pace is so much slower than it seems like it should be, given this. How can I run 10:15/mile @ 170bpm but going faster than 14:00/mile bumps my HR over 150? Better anaerobic fitness than aerobic fitness? More energy wasted in up-and-down lumbering at very slow gaits?

There are a lot of potential explanations. Big differences in weather, solar radiation, hills, life stresses, whether the day prior was hard (lingering HR effects on the day following), duration of holding the pace you're comparing just to name a few. If you're really curious, plot the HRvPace relationship with a T+D correction on the pace. It should create a power curve and show the relationship over a wide set of paces. I wouldn't include any interval workout where the interval is less than a mile (for example a 3 x 1 mile at HM Tempo workout, I wouldn't take the average pace and average HR to use in this plot, but if it were 2 x 2 miles, then I would average everything out). The wrist based HR monitor takes too long to respond for the data to be truly representative of what your true HRvPace relationship is.

 

[NYC_MW]

Definitely agree on the benefits of journal-based accountability! And the nerd in me really appreciates the aesthetics of your spreadsheet

 

[Cabius]

There are a lot of potential explanations. Big differences in weather, solar radiation, hills, life stresses, whether the day prior was hard (lingering HR effects on the day following), duration of holding the pace you're comparing just to name a few. If you're really curious, plot the HRvPace relationship with a T+D correction on the pace. It should create a power curve and show the relationship over a wide set of paces. I wouldn't include any interval workout where the interval is less than a mile (for example a 3 x 1 mile at HM Tempo workout, I wouldn't take the average pace and average HR to use in this plot, but if it were 2 x 2 miles, then I would average everything out). The wrist based HR monitor takes too long to respond for the data to be truly representative of what your true HRvPace relationship is.

This is helpful, thanks. I probably need a few weeks of data to have anything meaningful, but I'll start by building a T+D adjusted pace value into my run log.

I do have a chest strap HR monitor but I only use it for intervals, on the assumption that the Apple Watch seems fine for more steady paces. Do you disagree?

 

[Cabius]

7/24 outdoor long run
Planned: 6.0 miles @136-151bpm (13:30/mile)
Actual: 6.0 miles @ 144 bpm (13:32/mile; 153 T+D; 12:54/mile adjusted)

This was my first time running my old 6+ mile route since December. My house is sort of in the middle of the greenbelt, and I've been heading the other direction for shorter runs. It feels good to be back on "my" trails again! (Though based on the speed with which several shirtless hunks strode past me, it'll be a while before I earn local legend status...)

Overall this run felt good. I got my mileage and my HR target right, and my pace was good, especially adjusted for T&D. (I added a T&D adjustment to my tracking sheet, using the ranges @DopeyBadger posted to somebody else's training journal.)

I'm pretty happy with my splits. I slowed down a bit toward the end, but not too much. And I have a long time to build endurance.

 

[DopeyBadger]

I do have a chest strap HR monitor but I only use it for intervals, on the assumption that the Apple Watch seems fine for more steady paces. Do you disagree?

I would be wary of using two different devices for collecting HR data. Ideally you just need the device to be precise (gives the same value as other measurements) and not accurate (gives the correct value) per se. So if both devices are precise, but neither are accurate, then you could be getting mixed signals from the HR data. You're better off sticking with one device for collecting HR data and proving to yourself that it's precise regardless if it's accurate. The chest strap is likely to be more sensitive and is likely to give you more instantaneous accurate results, but obviously is more cumbersome to wear on every run. So I personally ditched the chest strap and don't really worry about HR data on short intervals.

For example, let's say the chest strap says your maxHR is 190 bpm, and the Apple Watch says your maxHR is 180 bpm, and your true maxHR is 200 bpm. If you switch between the two devices, then you're going to be misled about the correct HR zones to be working in (chest strap would be higher in this example).

 

[Cabius]

I would be wary of using two different devices for collecting HR data. Ideally you just need the device to be precise (gives the same value as other measurements) and not accurate (gives the correct value) per se. So if both devices are precise, but neither are accurate, then you could be getting mixed signals from the HR data. You're better off sticking with one device for collecting HR data and proving to yourself that it's precise regardless if it's accurate. The chest strap is likely to be more sensitive and is likely to give you more instantaneous accurate results, but obviously is more cumbersome to wear on every run. So I personally ditched the chest strap and don't really worry about HR data on short intervals.

For example, let's say the chest strap says your maxHR is 190 bpm, and the Apple Watch says your maxHR is 180 bpm, and your true maxHR is 200 bpm. If you switch between the two devices, then you're going to be misled about the correct HR zones to be working in (chest strap would be higher in this example).

Hmm, that makes a lot of sense. TBH I got the chest strap largely to test the accuracy of the Apple Watch, but I don't know a way to get readings from both for the same run so it would take a good deal of observation to notice anything but egregious errors. I ran with it a few times in the Spring, but when it gave me the same ballpark of numbers as my Apple Watch for similar runs, I put it on a shelf. I may be better off sticking to me watch and just throwing out interval runs.

I added a T&D adjustment to my run tracker, and started a Pace/HR Scatterplot. All of my charts can be filtered to a specific date range, and for this one specifically I also added filters to control whether it pulls in raw of adjusted pace, and whether it includes Indoor runs. Filtering our Interval runs would be easy enough.



If I exclude Indoor runs, this doesn't look so confounding, but I want a few more weeks of data to paint a fuller picture.

 

[Cabius]

2022-07-21 - Mid-week check-in
So far this week, I've completed 12.5 miles against my plan of 12.0 across three runs.


I feel good about this week so far. I'm getting very consistent on easy/long runs from a heart-rate perspective. I know what an easy run feels like and am usually about to stick to it without even looking at my watch. My pace (even adjusted for T&D) varies quite a bit, but I feel comfortable that I'm building good momentum here. Speed and endurance will continue to get better over time.

One downside of focusing on HR vs Pace is that I tend to come out the gate too fast, and then slow down once my HR hits the 140s. I think I need to stick to a target pace to begin with, and then adjust once I'm in my target zone.

I am a bit frustrated on the weight loss front. I've stuck to my diet fairly well, but my weight has been flat or even gone up a little bit. I know from experience not to be too discouraged about this -- I'm building muscle, weight loss tends to come in spurts, etc. -- but it's still annoying. As with my running pace, I'm trying not to confuse actions and outcomes. I'm staying consistent with my goals and trusting the process.

7/26 Outdoor easy run
Planned: 3.0 miles @136-151bpm (13:15/mile)
Actual: 3.27 miles @ 143bpm (14:14/mile; 157 T+D; 13:29/mile adjusted)

This was an okay late night run. I waited until it was 9:30 PM and "only" 96 degrees. I felt good, but I was slow. My T&D-adjusted pace wasn't terrible, but I feel like I'm much more susceptible to heat than humidity (195+55 feels much harder than 185 + 65). Or maybe I was just very tired after a long day of work. But I got my miles in, I stayed in my aerobic zone, and I'm happy.



7/27 Outdoor easy run
Planned: 3.0 miles @136-151bpm (13:15/mile)
Actual: 3.19 miles @ 144bpm (13:04/mile; 152 T+D; 12:27/mile adjusted)

A good morning run. I don't love night/morning combos -- only about 10 hours between runs -- but they were both short easy runs and my legs felt strong. HR was solidly in my target zone. I slowed down in my third mile, as my HR started to creep up, but my overall pace was still good and my T&D adjusted pace was great. Feeling good!

 

[HangWithMerida]

You're doing great on sticking with your HR training! Despite the heat I also strongly prefer outdoor runs but this summer is killing me! The triple digits heat indexes in the evenings are too much. Enjoying watching your process/progress!

 

[Cabius]

7/24 outdoor tempo run
Planned: 2.5 miles @166-181bpm (10:45/mile)
Actual: 2.49 miles @ 168 bpm (9:33/mile; 154 T+D; 9:06/mile adjusted)

Another great tempo run in which I hit my HR target, but blasted past my pace target in both real and adjusted terms. I swear my watch said "2.50" when I ended the run, but Strava says 1.49 instead -- alas.

In typical fashion, my first mile was too fast (8:56, 8:30 adjusted) as I warmed up, and then I settled in for the remaining miles (9:30-10:00/mile).


Even taking the ending pace as my average, I think my pace targets are a bit too slow. I'll stick to my HR targets, and then adjust pace targets after another week or two. That will help me anticipate Half/Full Marathon paces, and also help solve my problem of coming too fast out the gate.

I am starting to get a good trendline in my HR by Pace chart. Definitely some outliers, but the basic shape is less confounding than I feared. Throwing out Indoor runs and using T&D adjustments helps a ton. (None of the trendline types seems to make a huge difference in the shape of the line, but I'll play around as I get more data.)



Hmm... I should color-code my HR zones...

 

[DopeyBadger]

(None of the trendline types seems to make a huge difference in the shape of the line, but I'll play around as I get more data.)

In my personal experience with the data, the power trendline is the way to go. As pace increases HR increases at a higher rate, and when the pace is slower the HR decreases at a slower rate, thereby the relationship isn't linear. Two examples of my historical data (sometimes using raw HR and other times using %HRR):





I graph pace in reverse of you, but for my chart I am fitter when the trendline moves down and to the left. That means I'm faster at the same HR, or the same pace at a lower HR.

 

[Cabius]

In my personal experience with the data, the power trendline is the way to go. As pace increases HR increases at a higher rate, and when the pace is slower the HR decreases at a slower rate, thereby the relationship isn't linear. Two examples of my historical data (sometimes using raw HR and other times using %HRR):

I graph pace in reverse of you, but for my chart I am fitter when the trendline moves down and to the left. That means I'm faster at the same HR, or the same pace at a lower HR.

This is helpful! I had Power Series selected; it just didn't really look any different.

I love the idea of using different data series/trendlines to capture runs from different time periods. It'll be a while before I have enough data to make comparisons, but I was struggling with how to accomplish that on a two-dimensional chart, and this makes perfect sense.

Thanks, as always!

 

[DopeyBadger]

I love the idea of using different data series/trendlines to capture runs from different time periods. It'll be a while before I have enough data to make comparisons, but I was struggling with how to accomplish that on a two-dimensional chart, and this makes perfect sense.

Yea, I've found the data is best split into 2-3 week chunks. That best shows a progression within a training plan and yields the best comparison across training plans.