Three siblings killed getting on school bus

[Klayfish]

The charges against the driver? What would the school district and bus company have to do with it?

Yes, the civil case. The charges against the driver will play out in their own timeline, but the civil actions will get really messy. The school district will be brought into it because of their safety practices. If the bus company was private, they'll be brought in too. The bus manufacturer themselves may be brought in because of the lights/signs on it. Municipality will be involved too.

Yes, the truck had a lot of damage, but if she was going 55mph, it's about what would be expected.

 

[ronandannette]

Yes, the civil case. The charges against the driver will play out in their own timeline, but the civil actions will get really messy. The school district will be brought into it because of their safety practices. If the bus company was private, they'll be brought in too. The bus manufacturer themselves may be brought in because of the lights/signs on it. Municipality will be involved too.

Yes, the truck had a lot of damage, but if she was going 55mph, it's about what would be expected.[

OK, I didn't think of that. Lawsuits happen here too, just not in such a common way that would make it an automatic assumption. I'm not making a value-judgement on whether or not the parents should sue, given their legal rights to do so, just that our two systems are different in that way.

 

[Klayfish]

OK, I didn't think of that. Lawsuits happen here too, just not in such a common way that would make it an automatic assumption. I'm not making a value-judgement on whether or not the parents should sue, given their legal rights to do so, just that our two systems are different in that way.

Yes, sadly I'm sure there are lawyers beating down their door.

 

[FlightlessDuck]

There have been five deaths and five more injuries in the past week, in five different crashes in four states (Indiana, Mississippi, Pennsylvania and Florida).

This article from CBS talks about distracted driving, and I am sure that is at least part of the problem:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/school...of-five-children-as-distracted-driving-rises/


But, maybe we should consider changing back to Eastern Standard Time earlier in the year? Maybe at the beginning of October instead of the beginning of November?

 

[smiths02]

Yes. And if you want to say a bus driver should never have to make that kind of call in a 55 mph zone, I can probably agree with that. But if the bus driver is put in that position, I’m not sure how he/she can wait until there are absolutely zero oncoming cars on the horizon.

The bus driver saw the vehicles coming, though, according to reports. It would seem that procedure should be that if the driver sees a vehicle, he waits until he sees that the vehicle is at least noticeably slowing down if not stopped before waving the kids on.

I didn't have a car growing up, so I have lots of experience as a pedestrian. I can tell you that I don't go through a marked crosswalk when vehicles are approaching and take for granted that they will stop; I wait until I see them slowing or stopped. Now, a group of elementary school kids wouldn't know to do that and having an adult wave you one would be more reason to cross.

 

[ronandannette]

The bus driver saw the vehicles coming, though, according to reports. It would seem that procedure should be that if the driver sees a vehicle, he waits until he sees that the vehicle is at least noticeably slowing down if not stopped before waving the kids on.

I didn't have a car growing up, so I have lots of experience as a pedestrian. I can tell you that I don't go through a marked crosswalk when vehicles are approaching and take for granted that they will stop; I wait until I see them slowing or stopped. Now, a group of elementary school kids wouldn't know to do that and having an adult wave you one would be more reason to cross.

One thing I hope has happened, even just amongst us here discussing it, is that we all become MUCH more aware of our own driving habits. Understanding that this was unintentional, yet the consequences so devastating, I've personally been hyper-vigilant over the past few days and have seen some shockingly reckless driving involving cross-walks.

It's very scary, even as a motorist, to stop at a cross-walk on a 4-lane (2-lanes each way) road and as the pedestrian begins to proceed, hope that other motorists stop as well. I've regularly been stopped at the curb lane with a pedestrian proceeding in front of my vehicle and been passed on the left. It's only a matter of luck, and very cautious pedestrians that keep them from being struck. {{shudder}} These aren't school zones mind you, but still...

 

[lifesavacation]

The bus driver saw the vehicles coming, though, according to reports. It would seem that procedure should be that if the driver sees a vehicle, he waits until he sees that the vehicle is at least noticeably slowing down if not stopped before waving the kids on.

I didn't have a car growing up, so I have lots of experience as a pedestrian. I can tell you that I don't go through a marked crosswalk when vehicles are approaching and take for granted that they will stop; I wait until I see them slowing or stopped. Now, a group of elementary school kids wouldn't know to do that and having an adult wave you one would be more reason to cross.

Agree. And like someone else mentioned, I don’t take for granted that someone will stop at a stop sign and I most definitely wait to make sure another car isn’t running a red light after my light just turns green. Happens all the time in the city when traffic is bad. People get impatient and they are going through the light if it just turned red.

 

[Hisgirl]

Such a tragedy. I read that and my heart just broke for those parents. That pain is one that will have no end and no parent should ever have to experience it.

With that said, I actually hate to see people who do this go to prison. What restitution is that? I would rather see them have to 'serve' speaking at high schools. That would actually possibly do some good. Put together a program, put it through driver's ed programs etc.

Putting a young person, who had no malice in their heart, into a prison system with criminals who stab and rape, doesn't seem to really cause the driver to repay society. I know someone in this exact situation. No phone, no drugs, no drinking....just a stupid distraction and people are dead. No previous tickets for anything and yet they are in prison with violent criminals. There's got to be a better way to do this.

 

[wenrob]

One thing I hope has happened, even just amongst us here discussing it, is that we all become MUCH more aware of our own driving habits. Understanding that this was unintentional, yet the consequences so devastating, I've personally been hyper-vigilant over the past few days and have seen some shockingly reckless driving involving cross-walks.

It's very scary, even as a motorist, to stop at a cross-walk on a 4-lane (2-lanes each way) road and as the pedestrian begins to proceed, hope that other motorists stop as well. I've regularly been stopped at the curb lane with a pedestrian proceeding in front of my vehicle and been passed on the left. It's only a matter of luck, and very cautious pedestrians that keep them from being struck. {{shudder}} These aren't school zones mind you, but still...

I live just about as far as you can get on the North edge of town which means traffic is pretty mild, everything is relatively new and well marked and the population is smaller. While of course you have to remain vigilant it’s easy to get complacent. Yesterday I went to see my folks and did some running around for them. They live in the smack dab center of the city where drivers and pedestrians are impatient and reckless. I felt like I was dumped into an elaborate game of Frogger on steroids. People crossing right in the middle of four lane traffic, cars passing you because you stopped for them. I was a nervous wreck by the time I got back to my end of town.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Such a tragedy. I read that and my heart just broke for those parents. That pain is one that will have no end and no parent should ever have to experience it.

With that said, I actually hate to see people who do this go to prison. What restitution is that? I would rather see them have to 'serve' speaking at high schools. That would actually possibly do some good. Put together a program, put it through driver's ed programs etc.

Putting a young person, who had no malice in their heart, into a prison system with criminals who stab and rape, doesn't seem to really cause the driver to repay society. I know someone in this exact situation. No phone, no drugs, no drinking....just a stupid distraction and people are dead. No previous tickets for anything and yet they are in prison with violent criminals. There's got to be a better way to do this.

If you have such an issue with how our judicial system works you need to be working with your county, state and at the federal level to voice your concerns. Otherwise actions have consequences and as they are set up consequences may involve jail time depending on a variety of factors (such that I listed earlier on in the thread). Also the type of prison one is sent to also has a variety of factors involved.

FWIW the driver is being charged with reckless homicide. Reckless homicide according to wiki is a crime in which the perpetrator was aware that their act (or failure to act when there is a legal duty to act) creates significant risk of death or grievous bodily harm in the victim, but ignores the risk and continues to act (or fail to act), and a human death results.

Is the person you know also charged with reckless homicide?

 

[luvsJack]

If you have such an issue with how our judicial system works you need to be working with your county, state and at the federal level to voice your concerns. Otherwise actions have consequences and as they are set up consequences may involve jail time depending on a variety of factors (such that I listed earlier on in the thread). Also the type of prison one is sent to also has a variety of factors involved.

FWIW the driver is being charged with reckless homicide. Reckless homicide according to wiki is a crime in which the perpetrator was aware that their act (or failure to act when there is a legal duty to act) creates significant risk of death or grievous bodily harm in the victim, but ignores the risk and continues to act (or fail to act), and a human death results.

Is the person you know also charged with reckless homicide?

There do have to be consequences but I do understand what the pp is saying. Is it going to help anyone for this woman to go to prison? She isn't a danger to society so that isn't a reason. Its not going to lessen the pain of the parents of these children. What will it do? I mean, I don't what the alternative should be but putting her in prison with hardened criminals doesn't seem to be the right one either. She made a stupid choice and it cost these children their lives. One horrible choice and it has taken children from their parents and will take a mother from her children. Very, very sad all the way around.

OTOH, what someone is initially charged with is not always what they ultimately are prosecuted for. Just depends how the investigation goes and what they can or can't determine happened.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

There do have to be consequences but I do understand what the pp is saying. Is it going to help anyone for this woman to go to prison? She isn't a danger to society so that isn't a reason. Its not going to lessen the pain of the parents of these children. What will it do? I mean, I don't what the alternative should be but putting her in prison with hardened criminals doesn't seem to be the right one either. She made a stupid choice and it cost these children their lives. One horrible choice and it has taken children from their parents and will take a mother from her children. Very, very sad all the way around.

OTOH, what someone is initially charged with is not always what they ultimately are prosecuted for. Just depends how the investigation goes and what they can or can't determine happened.

Like I said if you have an issue with how our judicial system works you need to be working with your county, state and at the federal level to voice your concerns. And if you feel strongly enough about this as it appears you do with respects to her not being a danger to society, that with certainty that she'll be in prison with hardened criminals, that it was just a stupid choice (not sure I would use stupid in line with what occurred), etc then perhaps you could write into the powers that be in Fulton County, IN and provide your support for her and request leniency be taken.

I do disagree with most of your statements above especially because you're basing it off of a lot of assumptions that I personally don't have enough information to formulate them myself but I'm not intending to go back and forth about it.

We don't have a darn clue what's going to happen to her so at least at this point it's a bit fruitless to discuss jail aspects in the way the PP was talking about. So many factors come to play. What we do know is what she is being charged with presently. Yes, I'm well aware of how charges can shift and change...

 

[msb578]

Such a tragedy. I read that and my heart just broke for those parents. That pain is one that will have no end and no parent should ever have to experience it.

With that said, I actually hate to see people who do this go to prison. What restitution is that? I would rather see them have to 'serve' speaking at high schools. That would actually possibly do some good. Put together a program, put it through driver's ed programs etc.

Putting a young person, who had no malice in their heart, into a prison system with criminals who stab and rape, doesn't seem to really cause the driver to repay society. I know someone in this exact situation. No phone, no drugs, no drinking....just a stupid distraction and people are dead. No previous tickets for anything and yet they are in prison with violent criminals. There's got to be a better way to do this.

I totally agree. I mean, who knows how I’d feel if it was my family (my kids are all the exact same ages as the victims)... but, putting the driver in prison just doesn’t seem like it fixes much. As a society, we demand a penalty, and there probably needs to be one. But to me this feels like a gap where the law kind of fails us. Not completely an accident, but also not a person who has evil/violent intentions.

But yes, I think she will end up doing some time.

 

[luvsJack]

Like I said if you have an issue with how our judicial system works you need to be working with your county, state and at the federal level to voice your concerns. And if you feel strongly enough about this as it appears you do with respects to her not being a danger to society, that with certainty that she'll be in prison with hardened criminals, that it was just a stupid choice (not sure I would use stupid in line with what occurred), etc then perhaps you could write into the powers that be in Fulton County, IN and provide your support for her and request leniency be taken.

I do disagree with most of your statements above especially because you're basing it off of a lot of assumptions that I personally don't have enough information to formulate them myself but I'm not intending to go back and forth about it.

We don't have a darn clue what's going to happen to her so at least at this point it's a bit fruitless to discuss jail aspects in the way the PP was talking about. So many factors come to play. What we do know is what she is being charged with presently. Yes, I'm well aware of how charges can shift and change...

Its a conversation. Chill. No one is trying to "go back and forth" or argue with you. Or lecture/educate you. Don't take things so personally.

Like I said, I don't know what alternative consequence should be. But I, nor the pp were talking about leniency; we were talking about OTHER consequences.

Stupid, tragic, idiotic, whatever you want to call it choice. The fact remains it has taken 3 children from their parents and will possibly take a mother from her two children.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Its a conversation. Chill. No one is trying to "go back and forth" or argue with you. Or lecture/educate you. Don't take things so personally.

Like I said, I don't know what alternative consequence should be. But I, nor the pp were talking about leniency; we were talking about OTHER consequences.

Stupid, tragic, idiotic, whatever you want to call it choice. The fact remains it has taken 3 children from their parents and will possibly take a mother from her two children.

Um..I was chill. I was telling you I didn't want to go back and forth so that you would know I wasn't looking to argue and was just conversationally giving my opinion on your opinion but I guess nevermind.

 

[sam_gordon]

If you have such an issue with how our judicial system works you need to be working with your county, state and at the federal level to voice your concerns.

So people shouldn't discuss things unless they're willing to make changes? Seems like a limited view point. Why not have discussions among peers and hash out the pros/cons of a stance? You make it sound like "this is the way things are, so we shouldn't discuss changes." I didn't get the impression that @Hisgirl is jumping up and down saying "we need to change this". She's simply stating her views on the subject. I thought that's what this was, a discussion board.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

So people shouldn't discuss things unless they're willing to make changes? Seems like a limited view point. Why not have discussions among peers and hash out the pros/cons of a stance? You make it sound like "this is the way things are, so we shouldn't discuss changes." I didn't get the impression that @Hisgirl is jumping up and down saying "we need to change this". She's simply stating her views on the subject. I thought that's what this was, a discussion board.

You know that's not what I meant.

What their comments were were more along the lines of a reform in the court systems thus my comment.

Our court systems are already set up to look for many things that may reduce a person's consequences. We have pleaing down to a lesser charge, we have specific charges based on specific evidence (and lack thereof would create a different charge), there's remorse shown, prior offenses, there's factors that led up to the incident and actions the person did before, during and after the incident, etc. So if this is an issue to a specific person then the way the judicial system is reviewing each situation is a problem thus they may see it as a reform should occur.

If there's a minimum sentence without respects to the factors listed above and factors not listed (as it was not an exhaustive list) then that also may be a case for a reform. As is the courts, the police and the existing laws will all combine to obtain the consequences this particular driver of this particular incident will have.

 

[luvsJack]

I thought about this thread today on my way home.

I leave work the same time every day. I drive home the same way every day. Today, I met a school bus. I never meet a school bus on this road. Now the kid may not always ride so the bus doesn’t have to come down this far, or I was driving a bit faster or the bus was behind schedule. But either way, I don’t usually see one.

Just as I saw it, the bus was coming to a stop and the yellow light came on and then the red light and the stop sign. Not sure but it was no where near 300 ft back from the stop that the light came on, maybe 100 ft. It took a couple of seconds for me to register that it was stopping. I saw the light, I saw the bus, but I really wasn’t thinking about what it was. I had plenty of time and stopped well back so all was well but it certainly gave me pause. How many times do any of us drive our everyday route and are thinking about cooking dinner, what’s going on that night, something from work or whatever and really are distracted.

It doesn’t take a cell phone, a crying kid, or anything in the vehicle to be distracted. Sometimes it’s just our own minds.

 

[LSUmiss]

I’m not judging her either way as I don’t have all the facts.

But, that amount of bail or bond does not strike me as unusual for an act that has been deemed unintentional (so far). She also fully cooperated with the authorities as far as I know, and the court probably felt she’s not a flight risk.

Right it’s not about the severity of the crime, but the likelihood she’ll show up for court.

 

[PollyannaMom]

I am surprised by how many people say how common it is for driver’s to blow by the buses with the lights flashing and the arm down. I have rarely seen that happen and I am a middle aged woman who is frequently out and about during bus runs. And for years stood at bus stops with my own kids. I wonder if it is more strictly enforced here? Or possibly more of an issue on rural roads (I am very much in the suburbs)? Occasionally I will see someone going a bit fast in a flashing school zone (speed limit is 15 when flashing here) but even then they slow down, just not to 15.

Unfortunately, I've seen it too often. And it was my first thought when I heard the story - I didn't assume the driver was distracted by a phone or something, but that she ignored the sign.

This article states the bus driver waved the kids across even though he saw a vehicle approaching “because he figured there was no reason the driver wouldn’t stop.” As a driver you should never assume anything. As a school bus driver you better be damn sure. IMO there are three culpable for the deaths of these kids. The county for having kids cross a 55 mile per hour highway in the dark, the bus driver who assumed a vehicle would stop (and as a bus driver should know better) and a woman who did not slow for lights because “she didn’t know what they were.” All the more reason to slow/stop. Perfect storm of stupid decisions by all.

Definitely a lot of contributing factors! I can't believe the driver told them to cross before the cars were actually stopped.

It's very scary, even as a motorist, to stop at a cross-walk on a 4-lane (2-lanes each way) road and as the pedestrian begins to proceed, hope that other motorists stop as well. I've regularly been stopped at the curb lane with a pedestrian proceeding in front of my vehicle and been passed on the left. It's only a matter of luck, and very cautious pedestrians that keep them from being struck. {{shudder}} These aren't school zones mind you, but still...

Yep, I was rear-ended once because the car two in front of me stopped at a crosswalk - the car in front of me stopped, I stopped, and the one behind me...didn't.

...But, maybe we should consider changing back to Eastern Standard Time earlier in the year? Maybe at the beginning of October instead of the beginning of November?

That's a good point! There do seem to have been an awful lot of accidents lately.

Three families: The family that's lost three children ... the unrelated boy who was airlifted out and was listed as "critical, but now seems to be making progress ... and the driver. None of those families will ever be the same again.

And the bus driver, and all the other children already on the bus who witnessed the accident.


This whole thing is horrible. So many people will never forgive themselves for decisions that seemed so small at the time.