Three siblings killed getting on school bus

[underdesea]

Here is the latest update on the situation in Indiana.

https://www.theindychannel.com/news...e-the-lights-were-a-school-bus-until-too-late

 

[wenrob]

Here is the latest update on the situation in Indiana.

https://www.theindychannel.com/news...e-the-lights-were-a-school-bus-until-too-late

This article states the bus driver waved the kids across even though he saw a vehicle approaching “because he figured there was no reason the driver wouldn’t stop.” As a driver you should never assume anything. As a school bus driver you better be damn sure. IMO there are three culpable for the deaths of these kids. The county for having kids cross a 55 mile per hour highway in the dark, the bus driver who assumed a vehicle would stop (and as a bus driver should know better) and a woman who did not slow for lights because “she didn’t know what they were.” All the more reason to slow/stop. Perfect storm of stupid decisions by all.

 

[ronandannette]

...I just read a book about a man who committed a crime and how greatly his innocent family suffered when the people in the town used their anger at him towards sending hate mail, hate calls, egging the house, and ostracizing the wife and kids of the man who committed the crime. The quote on the front cover was, "A compelling exploration of the way a crime implicates all of us". It was eye opening and certainly made me feel empathy towards anyone going through something like this...in the case yesterday I mean the husband and kids of the woman who caused the accident. I can only imagine their suffering as well. There are so many families who are going to grieve and feel pain forever because of this, and my heart hurts for every one of them.

This is a very thoughtful point and of course, vigilantism of any kind is deplorable. I agree 100% about feeling for her family. I don't particularly wish her any ill either, beyond having to take the consequences, to the fullest extent of the law, for what she's done. I hope there's no plea-bargaining and no trying to convince a judge/jury of "mitigating factors" that should reduce the penalty.

I figured. You speak just like a claims person. (coming from one who had 26 years experience)

Just out of curiosity, what will the auto-insurance policy of the driver pay out in a case like this? Will the insurer take any measures to try and defend her to reduce their liability?

 

[sam_gordon]

This article states the bus driver waved the kids across even though he saw a vehicle approaching “because he figured there was no reason the driver wouldn’t stop.” As a driver you should never assume anything. As a school bus driver you better be damn sure. IMO there are three culpable for the deaths of these kids. The county for having kids cross a 55 mile per hour highway in the dark, the bus driver who assumed a vehicle would stop (and as a bus driver should know better) and a woman who did not slow for lights because “she didn’t know what they were.” All the more reason to slow/stop. Perfect storm of stupid decisions by all.

The driver behind the pickup said she was going 55mph and caught up to the pickup. So the comments posted earlier about "excessive speeding" are way off base.

 

[msb578]

This article states the bus driver waved the kids across even though he saw a vehicle approaching “because he figured there was no reason the driver wouldn’t stop.” As a driver you should never assume anything. As a school bus driver you better be damn sure. IMO there are three culpable for the deaths of these kids. The county for having kids cross a 55 mile per hour highway in the dark, the bus driver who assumed a vehicle would stop (and as a bus driver should know better) and a woman who did not slow for lights because “she didn’t know what they were.” All the more reason to slow/stop. Perfect storm of stupid decisions by all.

My kids cross a road getting off the bus. A straightaway- always in daylight, without the sun shining in drivers’ faces- and in a 35 mph zone (so, not the same circumstances).

The bus driver does tend to wait to give the crossing signal if an oncoming car is approaching. But after he gives the signal, sometimes an oncoming car comes into the picture. The kids are usually good about checking that direction themselves, but they have their “off days” like any other young child.

It’s quite possible (and to me, not unreasonable) that the bus driver can give the crossing signal while an oncoming car is well out of range of the bus. If that car happens to be going faster than expected (35 mph), that could become a problem in a hurry.

 

[wenrob]

The driver behind the pickup said she was going 55mph and caught up to the pickup. So the comments posted earlier about "excessive speeding" are way off base.

I have been following the thread but have been reserving judgment. Anytime you see flashing lights you need to slow in case you need to stop. Yet you have kids crossing a dark highway and a bus driver who waved them across even though he saw an approaching vehicle. This on more than just the driver who hit them IMO.

 

[wenrob]

My kids cross a road getting off the bus. A straightaway- always in daylight, without the sun shining in drivers’ faces- and in a 35 mph zone (so, not the same circumstances).

The bus driver does tend to wait to give the crossing signal if an oncoming car is approaching. But after he gives the signal, sometimes an oncoming car comes into the picture. The kids are usually good about checking that direction themselves, but they have their “off days” like any other young child.

It’s quite possible (and to me, not unreasonable) that the bus driver can give the crossing signal while an oncoming car is well out of range of the bus. If that car happens to be going faster than expected (35 mph), that could become a problem in a hurry.

The speed limit was 55mph.

 

[underdesea]

Another local update.

https://www.wthr.com/article/court-...id-not-realize-it-was-school-bus-hitting-kids

 

[msb578]

The speed limit was 55mph.

Yes. And if you want to say a bus driver should never have to make that kind of call in a 55 mph zone, I can probably agree with that. But if the bus driver is put in that position, I’m not sure how he/she can wait until there are absolutely zero oncoming cars on the horizon.

 

[wenrob]

Yes. And if you want to say a bus driver should never have to make that kind of call in a 55 mph zone, I can probably agree with that. But if the bus driver is put in that position, I’m not sure how he/she can wait until there are absolutely zero oncoming cars on the horizon.

The thing is she clearly wasn’t far enough out at 55mph to make that call because she ended up hitting them. He says he assumed she would stop so I think he knew that too. That said he should never have been put into the position to try and make that call. Having kids cross a dark Highway to get on a bus should never have happened. I’m not excusing the driver, not one bit but the circumstances presented in the article I quoted suggest it was only a matter of time before something like this happened.

 

[Klayfish]

Just out of curiosity, what will the auto-insurance policy of the driver pay out in a case like this? Will the insurer take any measures to try and defend her to reduce their liability?

Whatever her policy limits are. There will be a ton of investigation done, and it can get quite complicated. However, given the fatalities involved even if they could reduce liability to any degree, it's still worth more than what her policy limits are. However, this case is likely to drag out for years. The school district is going to be brought into it, the municipality, potentially the manufacturer of the lights/bus, the families' insurance carrier potentially (for underinsured motorist). I obviously don't know who her insurance is or what her limits are, but if they're smart, they'll offer them up immediately.

 

[msb578]

The thing is she clearly wasn’t far enough out at 55mph to make that call because she ended up hitting them. He says he assumed she would stop so I think he knew that too. That said he should never have been put into the position to try and make that call. Having kids cross a dark Highway to get on a bus should never have happened. I’m not excusing the driver, not one bit but the circumstances presented in the article I quoted suggest it was only a matter of time before something like this happened.

It’s a terrible setup. And it’s one of those economy-over-safety scenarios that we see everyday. “Safety first” sounds nice, but safety often comes second or third. I’m not even really judging whether that’s the way it should be or not- I just see it as reality.

Also based on the report, I’m not seeing anything so far that says the pickup driver was impaired, distracted, or speeding. It’s possible she simply “spaced out” or just plain “screwed up”.

 

[wenrob]

It’s a terrible setup. And it’s one of those economy-over-safety scenarios that we see everyday. “Safety first” sounds nice, but safety often comes second or third. I’m not even really judging whether that’s the way it should be or not- I just see it as reality.

Also based on the report, I’m not seeing anything so far that says the pickup driver was impaired, distracted, or speeding. It’s possible she simply “spaced out” or just plain “screwed up”.

Just plain screwed up it sounds like to me.

I’m not trying to put this on the bus driver, he was put in a crappy situation but I have to wonder if there was an approaching vehicle why he didn’t wait for it to respond to the lights and come to a full stop before waving the kids across. Waiting at stops with my kids the driver won’t even open the door until all vehicles are stopped on either side. Still you have people who circumvent and blow through anyway. (I tried chasing one down on foot once I was so angry)

Like I said in my initial post mistakes were made all around IMO.

FTR- I have two brothers who are school bus drivers in a little rural town so I do have empathy for this driver.

 

[Hikergirl]

How do you not realize it is a school bus?
And even if you didn't, if you see something in the road ahead of you with red flashing lights and had no idea what it was wouldn't your instinct to be to slow down?
I didn't read anything stating where she was going, was this a route she took often at that time? If so then she was bound to have seen a bus on it before.

 

[luvsJack]

She had just dropped her husband off at work, according to the last article posted. One prior to that said something about her heading to her parent's home to get something for her little brother who was with her. So not sure about the route.

When I am at a 4 way stop sign and a car is approaching, I make sure the car is actually in the process of stopping before I go; heck I do that if my light turns green and traffic is approaching. I don't assume anything of another car. Sounds like the bus driver learned that lesson in a most tragic way. You can never assume anyone is going to do anything in a car. We had bus monitors back in my day of riding a school bus. That sounds safer than a driver "waving them across". The monitor would get off the bus and stay in front of it, until all traffic had stopped. Then held a flag across the lane for the kids to cross. Not sure how safe it was for the monitor standing in front of the bus but it would have prevented this.

 

[luvsJack]

How do you not realize it is a school bus?
And even if you didn't, if you see something in the road ahead of you with red flashing lights and had no idea what it was wouldn't your instinct to be to slow down?
I didn't read anything stating where she was going, was this a route she took often at that time? If so then she was bound to have seen a bus on it before.

The driver behind her stated that they saw the kids in her (the one who hit them) headlights. If the car behind her could see them, how could SHE not see them? There has to be something she isn't saying. She was distracted somehow, she has some night blindness, SOMETHING. I guess maybe a car behind the bus could have been partly over the center line and its lights were blinding her some. I don't know. But something just had to keep her from seeing those kids.

 

[Hikergirl]

The driver behind her stated that they saw the kids in her (the one who hit them) headlights. If the car behind her could see them, how could SHE not see them? There has to be something she isn't saying. She was distracted somehow, she has some night blindness, SOMETHING. I guess maybe a car behind the bus could have been partly over the center line and its lights were blinding her some. I don't know. But something just had to keep her from seeing those kids.

In her photo she is wearing glasses, maybe that did effect her vision with lights flashing. Still why wouldn't you slow down as you approaching something large in the road with flashing lights?

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

This article states the bus driver waved the kids across even though he saw a vehicle approaching “because he figured there was no reason the driver wouldn’t stop.” As a driver you should never assume anything. As a school bus driver you better be damn sure. IMO there are three culpable for the deaths of these kids. The county for having kids cross a 55 mile per hour highway in the dark, the bus driver who assumed a vehicle would stop (and as a bus driver should know better) and a woman who did not slow for lights because “she didn’t know what they were.” All the more reason to slow/stop. Perfect storm of stupid decisions by all.

Hmm this adds a layer IMO.

I can understand the bus driver's rationale but moreso if the speeds were lower. I'm just using my experience in driving but it's a lot easier for me to gauge if a driver is going to catch up to me if say for instance I make a left turn when the speeds are lower. I'm a lot more vigilant when the speeds are higher.

If I were to think about this it may have been an error in judgement on the bus driver. I don't think, just like I said about the pick up truck driver, that the bus driver really thought something like this would happen. I don't know how that would be added into the mix as far as reasonable responsibility. At this point I'm still laying the majority on the driver.

 

[luvsJack]

In her photo she is wearing glasses, maybe that did effect her vision with lights flashing. Still why wouldn't you slow down as you approaching something large in the road with flashing lights?

I wear glasses and sometimes in the right conditions there is a glare and I can't see clearly. I do slow down considerably ESPECIALLY if I see lights flashing regardless of the color of them. Blue lights are the worst! I have almost slowed to a crawl going around an officer with someone on the side of the road because I am so afraid of the officer stepping out in the road.

I can't honestly imagine not slowing down for the lights.

 

[morgan98]

I completely think the driver is at fault, no question about it. And saying she didn't slow/stop because she didn't know what was in the road is not a good explanation AT ALL.

That being said, I am disturbed by hearing that bus drivers are also responsible for telling the kids it is safe to cross. This seems like a disaster waiting to happen on many fronts. The bus driver does need to be 100% sure that the cars are going to stop, but does the bus driver even have a clear enough view all the time to be giving that direction. Reminds me of when you are trying to turn left and there are a couple of lanes of traffic blocking your view. There is always someone who is signaling that it is safe for you to go, but that person does not KNOW the intentions of the other driver and sometimes causes an accident by giving the go ahead. I never trust others waiving me into situations that I cannot judge for myself.

This does not believe that I am saying that the children should not have trusted the bus driver who was giving them the okay to cross. This is just a recipe for disaster and unfortunately ended horribly.