The Vaccine Discussion Thread

[RobDoc]

Do you have a link for that? I don't see how a state can tell a private company how to conduct their business (as long as they are not discriminatory). If we want to get sailing again out of the US, I believe vaccines are the way to at least get started and test out the systems for covid.

https://www.flgov.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/EO-21-81.pdf






While I am NOT an attorney, nor did I stay in a HIE last night, my interpretation is guided by Section 4. :

Section 4
All businesses must comply with this order to be eligible for grants or contracts funded through state revenue.

I would expect legal challenge from Cruise Lines who are denied access to a FL Port - but would anticipate that few receive any grants or funding from the State of Florida - unless the Port Authority is a charitable organization allowing them access without charge.

 

[tink2424]

Ya I don't think that situation warrants a complete shut down on distribution. 1 death... I mean how many people will end up dying because they are not vaccinated due to it no longer being available?

But don't forget these aren't FDA approved vaccines yet. They are under EUA and as such a higher level of scrutiny is warranted. They absolutely should pause all shots and evaluate the adverse events before proceeding. Also, I read that part of the concern is that the treatment for these blood clots are different from the standard of care and the standard of care could be dangerous. So pause and if they decide to resume vaccinating then they can also alert all doctors to the symptoms as well as the treatment for this before people are needlessly killed.

 

[brentm77]

But don't forget these aren't FDA approved vaccines yet. They are under EUA and as such a higher level of scrutiny is warranted. They absolutely should pause all shots and evaluate the adverse events before proceeding. Also, I read that part of the concern is that the treatment for these blood clots are different from the standard of care and the standard of care could be dangerous. So pause and if they decide to resume vaccinating then they can also alert all doctors to the symptoms as well as the treatment for this before people are needlessly killed.

This is what I am reading too. Apparently, in the FDA/CDC conference call this morning, they said the main purpose of the pause was to prepare clinicians to advise, diagnose, and treat recipients who may develop a clot and advise not to use the standard of care, which could be problematic. The pause is only expected to last a few days.

 

[JWelch62]

https://www.flgov.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/EO-21-81.pdf

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The important part here, IMO, is Section 4 - "All businesses must comply with this order to be eligible for grants or contracts funded through state revenue"

 

[jerry557]

And that’s just DeSantis’s order. It’s not the only one. Other governors have issued orders too. And several state legislatures are looking to ban employers from requiring employees to be vaccinated. The Florida legislature is looking at that too. That would effect Disney World very much so. No one seems to know for sure how this effects cruise lines.

It’s not the cruise lines specifically that is being targeted. The issue is that there is genuine concern that these vaccines will be forced on people from multiple avenues. If you don’t want a vaccine, don’t cruise during a pandemic. Most people won’t have a problem with that. But there are people taking this debate MUCH further than that, suggesting you shouldn’t be able to travel at all, can’t go to school, or even have a job unless you get the shot. And when you start talking like that, yeah...that’s going to cause a battle. Because now you put people’s entire livelihoods in jeopardy.....not just a vacation.

 

[AquaDame]

And that’s just DeSantis’s order. It’s not the only one. Other governors have issued orders too. And several state legislatures are looking to ban employers from requiring employees to be vaccinated. The Florida legislature is looking at that too. That would effect Disney World very much so. No one seems to know for sure how this effects cruise lines.

It’s not the cruise lines specifically that is being targeted. The issue is that there is genuine concern that these vaccines will be forced on people from multiple avenues. If you don’t want a vaccine, don’t cruise during a pandemic. Most people won’t have a problem with that. But there are people taking this debate MUCH further than that, suggesting you shouldn’t be able to travel at all, can’t go to school, or even have a job unless you get the shot. And when you start talking like that, yeah...that’s going to cause a battle. Because now you put people’s entire livelihoods in jeopardy.....not just a vacation.

To that I say there are already certain vaccines required for certain jobs, and to attend many schools in some states. Arguing the legality and how such a rollout could or would occur is outside what this thread is for - which is the vaccine and cruising. This issue is going to have to make its way through the courts - and it isn't unlikely that the decision may be different on a state by state basis just as mask mandates and such are.

 

[Cheburashka]

How does that align with the argument that a private business can set its rules and regulations?

Private businesses can't discriminate on other grounds, like race or sexual orientation, so they also can't discriminate based on health & vaccination status.

 

[nutshell]

Private businesses can't discriminate on other grounds, like race or sexual orientation, so they also can't discriminate based on health & vaccination status.

The EEOC disagrees.

 

[Maggie'sMom]

Private businesses can't discriminate on other grounds, like race or sexual orientation, so they also can't discriminate based on health & vaccination status.

Vaccination status isn't currently a protected class, unlike race or gender. It's possible the Federal, state, and local governments could amend their statutes to include vaccination status, but I don't know that governments want to open that particular can of worms. And cruising is in a unique space in that cruisers have to comply with the requirements of all the ports the ship visits, whether a cruiser plans to disembark in that port or not. So ultimately, if the Bahamas wants to require COVID vaccinations of their visitors, all cruises stopping in the Bahamas, including at Castaway Cay, have to require all passengers and crew be vaccinated for COVID and a US governor can't change that.

 

[brentm77]

The EEOC disagrees.

To be clear, the EEOC doesn't regulate the relationship between the general public and a private business. It regulates the relationship between the business and its employees. But you are right that the EEOC has taken the position that, during a pandemic, an employer can require its employees to be vaccinated, provided religious and disability exemptions are given when appropriate.

In the context of requiring the public to be vaccinated to enter a business, as @Maggie'sMom has pointed out, vaccination status is not a protected class, meaning private businesses could require people entering their property to have vaccinations. On the other hand, it could raise ADA challenges. If a disability prevents a person from receiving a vaccination, then the question is whether the ADA requires the business to accommodate the disabled person and allow the person to enter anyway. However, the accommodation is not required if the business can show the exception would be a direct threat to the health or safety of others, and I think most courts would find that it would be until the pandemic is over, especially in the context of cruising. I could be wrong; as far as I know, that issue hasn't been litigated.

 

[Intr3pid]

Moderna's phase 3 trial results have received a 6-month update, and it looks like the efficacy is still high at 90%:

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/13/cov...t-effective-six-months-after-second-dose.html
Some highlights:
* Whey they first reported a 94.1% efficacy, it was a 185-to-11 ratio of infections in the placebo vs mRNA groups. Novavax's is another vaccine that has similar data during an elevated viral caseload - that is, in the third wave we just came out of.
* The vaccine is still sporting a very healthy 95% efficacy against severity.
* The company is currently conducting trials on the 12-17 age group. Trials for those younger will commence next.

The six-month marker means Moderna can now apply for a full approval and, if approved, start marketing directly to individuals and private businesses. Cruise lines and airlines may be watching closely - though with the relative deep freeze needed, the logistics for the cruise lines will have to involve working together with the ports.

 

[rjb123]

Will the cruise lines possibly move their ports out of Florida? I mean, they dont' HAVE to sail out of Florida, yk? They can go out of Virginia, other ports on the east coast, or even foreign ports. If I was running a cruise line I would frankly say "thank you very much, and FYI not sailing out of Florida ever again." The potential consequences of this has clearly not been considered by the Florida gov IMHO.

 

[sullivan.kscott]

Will the cruise lines possibly move their ports out of Florida? I mean, they dont' HAVE to sail out of Florida, yk? They can go out of Virginia, other ports on the east coast, or even foreign ports. If I was running a cruise line I would frankly say "thank you very much, and FYI not sailing out of Florida ever again." The potential consequences of this has clearly not been considered by the Florida gov IMHO.

That might be an interesting point in the near term, like sailing from Jamaica or Barbados this summer. But FL’s ports are popular for a multitude of reasons. Infrastructure has been built around cruising for decades. Multiple berths and seemingly endless hotel rooms for pre or post cruise stays. Then there’s the mere geography, and the relative ease of visiting the Caribbean from all over the state.

Could it happen? Sure. But I don’t think it will be an overnight change. Just look at how long it took to get summer home ports renegotiated for the relatively small number of ships returning to service.

 

[charmed59]

Perhaps the few vaccine required test cruises can cruise out of Charleston or other east coast ports until things are buttoned up a bit.

Florida does have a lot of port infrastructure, but not necessarily the additional medical and quarantine facilities in the CDC mandate. I think the all vaccine cruises are a way to send out cruises without the huge amount of backup necessary in case there is a huge outbreak on the ship.

 

[JWelch62]

The only companies that the executive order applies to are ones that do business with the state, or receive funding from the state. This is typically how executive orders work, even at the federal level. E.G. the US government can require contractors that do business with the federal government to meet certain employment/anti-discrimination standards even though these standards are not part of federal employment law.

"All businesses must comply with this order to be eligible for grants or contracts funded through state revenue"

So, unless DCL fits into these categories I don't see this applying to them. The unknown to me, is what level of tax breaks the state provides to DCL, if any.

EDIT - IANAL

 

[nutshell]

To be clear, the EEOC doesn't regulate the relationship between the general public and a private business. It regulates the relationship between the business and its employees. But you are right that the EEOC has taken the position that, during a pandemic, an employer can require its employees to be vaccinated, provided religious and disability exemptions are given when appropriate.

In the context of requiring the public to be vaccinated to enter a business, as @Maggie'sMom has pointed out, vaccination status is not a protected class, meaning private businesses could require people entering their property to have vaccinations. On the other hand, it could raise ADA challenges. If a disability prevents a person from receiving a vaccination, then the question is whether the ADA requires the business to accommodate the disabled person and allow the person to enter anyway. However, the accommodation is not required if the business can show the exception would be a direct threat to the health or safety of others, and I think most courts would find that it would be until the pandemic is over, especially in the context of cruising. I could be wrong; as far as I know, that issue hasn't been litigated.

All true, counsel!

 

[DCLMP]

Will the cruise lines possibly move their ports out of Florida? I mean, they dont' HAVE to sail out of Florida, yk? They can go out of Virginia, other ports on the east coast, or even foreign ports. If I was running a cruise line I would frankly say "thank you very much, and FYI not sailing out of Florida ever again." The potential consequences of this has clearly not been considered by the Florida gov IMHO.

No way will DCL leave Port Canaveral. They are too embedded there and tied to WDW. They‘ve also never been able to sell out cruises that embark from other ports without offering discounts.

 

[DCLMP]

That might be an interesting point in the near term, like sailing from Jamaica or Barbados this summer. But FL’s ports are popular for a multitude of reasons. Infrastructure has been built around cruising for decades. Multiple berths and seemingly endless hotel rooms for pre or post cruise stays. Then there’s the mere geography, and the relative ease of visiting the Caribbean from all over the state.

Could it happen? Sure. But I don’t think it will be an overnight change. Just look at how long it took to get summer home ports renegotiated for the relatively small number of ships returning to service.

It will never happen. It would mean everyone going on a cruise would need to fly to islands that don’t have a lot of flights. Not affordable or feasible.
Disneys has never had success selling there San Juan cruises. We did it once it was an 8 hour flight for us. The ship was only 2/3 full and very few kids onboard.

 

[kathi]

I think you may underestimate the desire for some people to get back on a ship. I think they would sell out at other departure ports in the short term. But I also think it all depends on the vaccine requirements they decide on.

 

[Joe Brig]

It will never happen. It would mean everyone going on a cruise would need to fly to islands that don’t have a lot of flights. Not affordable or feasible.
Disneys has never had success selling there San Juan cruises. We did it once it was an 8 hour flight for us. The ship was only 2/3 full and very few kids onboard.

There are plenty of direct flights to Nassau. Some are cheaper then flying to Miami.