The Vaccine Discussion Thread

[jerry557]

I'm not sure that there should be a system that requires US citizens to carry a credential, or require them to to have a single vaccination credential. I believe what people want is just a document/form that would show they had the vaccine for whatever purpose the individual needs it for. Much like the "old fashioned" yellow immunization record that many of us have.

Sure. And that wasn't abnormal. But people are going much further than that with this.

Thing is, in the past you had exemptions. People were able to have a religious exemption. Or finding a doctor out there that would write something that you shouldn't get them wasn't all that hard. Some states even allowed exemptions for personal reasons. So there was really no reason to create phony vaccination records.

But now that we are very seriously talking about denying goods and services, and even possibly people having to lose their jobs, if they don't vaccinate, I think you'll see a huge uptick in phony records. And without the government issuing the credentials, there will be verification problems.

 

[belle032]

I just don't understand why it can't be a simple opt in process. No one is REQUIRED to have a passport unless they are traveling somewhere that requires it. Well, if we see vaccinations are required to participate in certain activities, anyone should be able to choose to get one so they can participate. Just like people are not required to travel to Switzerland, a country that requires a passport, no one is required to take a cruise, a type of travel that might require a vaccine. No one's freedoms are being violated. Everyone remains free to participate in the activities that have requirements.

Agreed. Cruising is a privilege, not a right. If you actively choose not to follow a cruise line's policies, that company can actively choose to not let you board. I don't believe this particular vaccine will be required by cruise lines until the end of time. NCL has a current end date of 10/31 with the idea of reevaluating at that time. Reasonable.

I do feel for the small percent of the population that cannot wear a mask or get vaccinated for medical reasons. However, if you meet those criteria, please explain to me why you suddenly feel perfectly safe boarding a cruise ship for an immediate completely optional/non-essential vacation? So for those making that argument, I'm sorry, but you have no argument.

 

[jerry557]

Agreed. Cruising is a privilege, not a right. If you actively choose not to follow a cruise line's policies, that company can actively choose to not let you board. I don't believe this particular vaccine will be required by cruise lines until the end of time. NCL has a current end date of 10/31 with the idea of reevaluating at that time. Reasonable.

I do feel for the small percent of the population that cannot wear a mask or get vaccinated for medical reasons. However, if you meet those criteria, please explain to me why you suddenly feel perfectly safe boarding a cruise ship for an immediate completely optional/non-essential vacation? So for those making that argument, I'm sorry, but you have no argument.

Some people don’t fear the virus. They would rather take their chances with the virus. Actually, if you are young, you are more likely (statistically) to feel sicker from the vaccine than you would if you caught the virus. I know people who got COVID and felt nothing. But with the vaccine had headaches and body aches for days and a fever. Someone told me their family member had to go to the ER because their arm was in so much pain. And people are going to have to do this every year and have to keep getting boosters?

Now there is a debate in Europe over the AstraZeneca vaccine. There is talk that there is a tiny chance of blood clots especially in people under 30. At least 1 person died. So now a lot of young people are refusing to take that vaccine. Of course psychologically casts doubt on all the other ones too. Johnson & Johnson had to toss out million doses because the plant contaminated them.

I’m not saying people shouldn’t get the vaccine. If you want the shot, and especially if you in a high risk COVID group, I say get it! The point I’m making is that at least right now this needs to be a personal decision. Most of the childhood vaccines out there today like MMR or Pertussis have been out for several decades. We know they are safe, effective, and there is more confidence in them. You can make those more mandatory. These COVID vaccines are still very new. Talk of making them mandatory is not a good idea and is very premature. It’ll only cause fights and debate.

 

[Birdie dog]

Some people don’t fear the virus. They would rather take their chances with the virus. Actually, if you are young, you are more likely (statistically) to feel sicker from the vaccine than you would if you caught the virus. I know people who got COVID and felt nothing. But with the vaccine had headaches and body aches for days and a fever. Someone told me their family member had to go to the ER because their arm was in so much pain. And people are going to have to do this every year and have to keep getting boosters?

Now there is a debate in Europe over the AstraZeneca vaccine. There is talk that there is a tiny chance of blood clots especially in people under 30. At least 1 person died. So now a lot of young people are refusing to take that vaccine. Of course psychologically casts doubt on all the other ones too. Johnson & Johnson had to toss out million doses because the plant contaminated them.

I’m not saying people shouldn’t get the vaccine. If you want the shot, and especially if you in a high risk COVID group, I say get it! The point I’m making is that at least right now this needs to be a personal decision. Most of the childhood vaccines out there today like MMR or Pertussis have been out for several decades. We know they are safe, effective, and there is more confidence in them. You can make those more mandatory. These COVID vaccines are still very new. Talk of making them mandatory is not a good idea and is very premature. It’ll only cause fights and debate.

You not fearing the virus doesn't just affect you but every person you come in contact with, and potentially everyone THEY come in contact with. Like it or not, in the first half of this year, the vaccines will be fully approved and can be required anyplace that requires any vaccine.

 

[ford91exploder]

Absolutely a joke. I’ve worked in high acuity hospital settings for years. We take care of covid patients every day and a minority of staff caught covid. The surgical mask is worn to protect the people around you. N-95s are proven to provide safety when taking care of patients. We use them to protect ourselves. Please show me one "just one" study from a peer reviewed scientific journal that says masks don't work. I'll be looking back for it.
I am SO tired of anti-science, anti mask. I was at work watching what happened in Italy and NY and wondering when it would happen to us. I have seen young people (20s and 30s die). I've seen people who were repeating "don't let me die! I'm going to die!" and knew indeed they were. The anti mask, make up our own fact people have made this so much worse. This was a disease, not a political point, and in the good old US, we couldn't leave it at that. So, I'll be waiting for you to post your study and until then remember how anti maskers, and "I'm not going to social distance-ers" told the weak to stay home. Now it's their turn.

The high rates of air exchange in a hospital plus the positive pressure (compared to atmospheric) also helps in preventing infection because air is vented outward even when you open a door.

Ever work in a BSL3 or higher laboratory? I have and I helped design systems for use inside these laboratories, There is a reason you are working in a moon suit with air being provided via an umbilical it's because no human wearable filter is 100% effective in filtering out particles the size of viruses.

And because I work with state emergency management I actually DO have a CBRN mask with a battery powered air pump because with the CBRN filter installed its impossible to draw a breath through it. and the filter cartridges are $150 a shot and last 8-12 hours before they clog completely.

The cheap masks that are worn for primarily for magical thinking the only function they provide is to prevent water droplets exhaled from spreading. virus particle go right on through the mask,

I wear one I'm not one of those who is trying to make a political point by not wearing a mask. But I also have a very realistic expectation of the common masks in use as they WILL NOT PROTECT ME their function is to PROTECT OTHERS FROM ME.

 

[Birdie dog]

The high rates of air exchange in a hospital plus the positive pressure (compared to atmospheric) also helps in preventing infection because air is vented outward even when you open a door.

Ever work in a BSL3 or higher laboratory? I have and I helped design systems for use inside these laboratories, There is a reason you are working in a moon suit with air being provided via an umbilical it's because no human wearable filter is 100% effective in filtering out particles the size of viruses.

And because I work with state emergency management I actually DO have a CBRN mask with a battery powered air pump because with the CBRN filter installed its impossible to draw a breath through it. and the filter cartridges are $150 a shot and last 8-12 hours before they clog completely.

The cheap masks that are worn for primarily for magical thinking the only function they provide is to prevent water droplets exhaled from spreading. virus particle go right on through the mask,

I wear one I'm not one of those who is trying to make a political point by not wearing a mask. But I also have a very realistic expectation of the common masks in use as they WILL NOT PROTECT ME their function is to PROTECT OTHERS FROM ME.

I'm pretty sure I said above that a medical mask protects others from me. The n-95 absolutely protects me. (again I'm open to studies that they aren't). I work in one of the oldest hospitals in a very old city. Our ER is in a structure that's over 100 years old. Not only do we not have enough negative pressure rooms to keep covid patients soley in them, we don't have enough rooms with physical doors. So go on with your bad self and my being protected by a vented door. I've worked it since Covid started.

 

[goofystitch]

Once again, no one is talking about natural immunity in those that have had this virus. There are several physicians who say getting the vaccine could be dangerous/deadly if one has had COVID.

 

[Birdie dog]

Once again, no one is talking about natural immunity in those that have had this virus. There are several physicians who say getting the vaccine could be dangerous/deadly if one has had COVID.

Not true! The CDC says get the vaccine if you’ve had the virus. *I’ve* personally had covid and had both Pfizer vaccines. Every work teammate I know who’s had covid has been vaccinated. Who are these “several physicians”? A random radiologist maybe?

 

[AquaDame]

This thread is getting quite heated; I think we all need to take a break for a bit (and I need time to keep cleaning it up but I need to get back to my actual job...)

 

[AquaDame]

OK - ready to try again. Please above all remember to be civil with each other. This thread is meant to be a thread for the vaccine in relation to cruising given the board we're on. Comments outside what is inescapable in relation to politics given the topic will continue to be moderated to the best of our ability. Apologies in advance if you feel slighted; a different forum may be a better place for spirited debate.

 

[Maggie'sMom]

Once again, no one is talking about natural immunity in those that have had this virus. There are several physicians who say getting the vaccine could be dangerous/deadly if one has had COVID.

I think part of the problem is with verifying who has natural immunity from having COVID, and how does that immunity compare in strength to immunity from the vaccines.

I know that, at least initially, there were big problems with the accuracy of the antibody tests that were supposed to show if you'd had COVID and had antibodies to it. The tests were (and maybe still are) unregulated and were often picking up evidence of another previous coronavirus infection, such as one that causes the common cold rather than specifically COVID 19. Have those issues been resolved?

There were also some early indications that natural immunity to COVID waned quickly and the level of anitbodies could fall below what was needed to resist infection within a few months. Whereas the vaccines, at least at this point, are showing to be effective for at least 6 months.

It's more straightforward to provide proof of receiving the vaccine than it is to provide proof you had COVID and still have a level of immunity that matches or exceeds the level provided by the vaccine. So I can see cruise ships requiring the vaccine and not allowing an exception for people who have had COVID.

Lastly, and slightly off topic, but I've read a few news articles this week saying that some people experiencing long COVID have had their symptoms reduced or completely go away after receiving the vaccine, and I have not seen any reports of doctors saying it's dangerous for someone to receive the vaccine if they've already had COVID. I did see speculation somewhere that if you'd had COVID, you only needed one of the two doses.

 

[Mousequake]

Once again, no one is talking about natural immunity in those that have had this virus. There are several physicians who say getting the vaccine could be dangerous/deadly if one has had COVID.

I'm betting none of them are infectious disease specialists or immunologists.

 

[mevelandry]

Once again, no one is talking about natural immunity in those that have had this virus. There are several physicians who say getting the vaccine could be dangerous/deadly if one has had COVID.

All the people I know who had COVID had their doctor absolutely recommend to get at least one shot. Of course, they get a litle bit more side effects on the first shot than people who did not have COVID before: their body recognize the intruder and the immune system aggressively fights it right away!

 

[mevelandry]

Some people don’t fear the virus. They would rather take their chances with the virus. Actually, if you are young, you are more likely (statistically) to feel sicker from the vaccine than you would if you caught the virus. I know people who got COVID and felt nothing. But with the vaccine had headaches and body aches for days and a fever. Someone told me their family member had to go to the ER because their arm was in so much pain. And people are going to have to do this every year and have to keep getting boosters?

Now there is a debate in Europe over the AstraZeneca vaccine. There is talk that there is a tiny chance of blood clots especially in people under 30. At least 1 person died. So now a lot of young people are refusing to take that vaccine.

Regarding your first paragraph... Not saying that this is your goal but I just feel like that kind of talk feels (to me)like an attempt to induce fear of vaccine.

If you wanna get into anecdotes, I could tell you that I personnally know 12 people around me (and you can include me) who have received one dose so far and felt absolutely nothing other than a little pain at the injection site and a little fatigue.

Of course if you have had COVID, your body reacts to the vaccine: it's perfectly normal... Your immune system recognizes the intruder and does exactly what he is supposed to do (fight the virus).

Regarding the AstraZeneca vaccine, here in Quebec, they decided to make the AZ vaccine available for 55 yo+, no appointments needed, just walk-in... This way the people who don't mind taking a risk can come and get it right now.

We all know the risks by now because it's been highly talked in the news...

Well guess what: it's a huge success! People are willing to take a chance. Lines start forming at 4:30 in the morning. By 7:00 AM this morning, just in one location, they had distributed tickets to 1000 people who will receive the shot today.

The AZ vaccine has been available for a while now --a few hundreds of thousands given to this day-- and there was zero case of thrombosis since we started.

 

[jerry557]

Regarding your first paragraph... Not saying that this is your goal but I just feel like that kind of talk feels (to me)like an attempt to induce fear of vaccine.

If you wanna get into anecdotes, I could tell you that I personnally know 12 people around me (and you can include me) who have received one dose so far and felt absolutely nothing other than a little pain at the injection site and a little fatigue.

Of course if you have had COVID, your body reacts to the vaccine: it's perfectly normal... Your immune system recognizes the intruder and does exactly what he is supposed to do (fight the virus).

Regarding the AstraZeneca vaccine, here in Quebec, they decided to make the AZ vaccine available for 55 yo+, no appointments needed, just walk-in... This way the people who don't mind taking a risk can come and get it right now.

We all know the risks by now because it's been highly talked in the news...

Well guess what: it's a huge success! People are willing to take a chance. Lines start forming at 4:30 in the morning. By 7:00 AM this morning, just in one location, they had distributed tickets to 1000 people who will receive the shot today.

The AZ vaccine has been available for a while now --a few hundreds of thousands given to this day-- and there was zero case of thrombosis since we started.

I mentioned if someone wants the vaccine and/or in a high risk group, by all means, go get it. I’m not trying to convince people into not getting it. However, my point is that some people do have hesitations in getting it. It can be for religious reasons, or maybe they had a bad experience with a vaccine in the past or influenced by the experiences of people that are around them. And most of the time their fears or reasons for hesitating are not totally irrational. Obviously the stupid conspiracy garbage like Bill Gates injecting microchips is dumb and scaremongering. But not everyone who refuses or hesitates is doing so for stupid or selfish reasons like that.

My point is simply that it should be a personal decision involving a person and their doctor. And I feel that the government, corporations, and society has no right to butt into that discussion just because people want to get the cruise lines going. Or want to race back to normal and get their profits up.

 

[Lewisc]

Foreign governments can certainly require cruise passengers and crew be vaccinated. A passenger can't generally embark on a cruise unless they are qualified to disembark at every port.
We all know about "Real ID" The vaccination cards don't really meet any of the conditions needed for real ID. I know, not directly related but the same issues.

Hence the app based vaccine passports. It verifies your vaccination status then generates a QR code. NYs allows you to print it, take a screenshot of it, us their app or web lookup. Places that require it will have the ability to scan the QR.

International travel isn't really open to discussion. You either comply or don't go.

Currently US and state governments aren't talking about requiring vaccine for public areas. Some business are talking about requiring proof of vaccination to customers attending concerts and sporting venues. That's certainly an area where reasonable people might not agree.

NYC Broadway theaters have very tight seating. Older theaters make Spirit seating look like first class. Theatergoers tend to be older. A good case could be made for requiring vaccination by people attending a Broadway show.

 

[Intr3pid]

My point is simply that it should be a personal decision involving a person and their doctor. And I feel that the government, corporations, and society has no right to butt into that discussion just because people want to get the cruise lines going. Or want to race back to normal and get their profits up.

Yes, your personal health decision is yours to make with your medical service provider. But in a public health crisis, other lives are at risk when you are reckless. This is true for COVID, AIDS, measles, or, well, for when you are drunk behind a wheel. You can choose to skip the vaccine, like many will, but so can a business choose to say no if it cannot serve you without endangering others' lives. And, based on my rudimentary calculus, these operators are giving up profits when they are denying anyone service.

 

[Intr3pid]

Pfizer is asking for an EUA of their vaccine for those in the 12-15 age group. This may have a major impact on how some of the family-focused cruise lines restart their summer operations:

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/09/pfi...y-use-of-covid-19-vaccine-for-ages-12-15.html

 

[Intr3pid]

A double-mutation variant is spreading through India like wildfire. It has the mutations found in both the UK and the South African variants - possibly making it more transmissible AND evasive.

Just a couple of months ago, India had tamed its daily viral caseload down to just 14,000 - and, now, this new variant is running over their population at a clip of nearly 140,000 cases a day - well past the pre-vaccine peak.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/30/dou...ay-spread-to-other-countries-doctor-says.html
And it looks like this new mutation is already here in North America:

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/08/res...uble-mutant-covid-variant-in-california-.html

 

[mevelandry]

I mentioned if someone wants the vaccine and/or in a high risk group, by all means, go get it. I’m not trying to convince people into not getting it. However, my point is that some people do have hesitations in getting it. It can be for religious reasons, or maybe they had a bad experience with a vaccine in the past or influenced by the experiences of people that are around them. And most of the time their fears or reasons for hesitating are not totally irrational. Obviously the stupid conspiracy garbage like Bill Gates injecting microchips is dumb and scaremongering. But not everyone who refuses or hesitates is doing so for stupid or selfish reasons like that.

My point is simply that it should be a personal decision involving a person and their doctor. And I feel that the government, corporations, and society has no right to butt into that discussion just because people want to get the cruise lines going. Or want to race back to normal and get their profits up.

Alright. However, the only beef I have with the "personal decision" theme is: what about the greater good? "Society" is the humans around us. Society is more than just people wanting to cruise or people wanting profits...

It is also people who want grandparents to be able to see their grand kids. People who want workers to be able to earn their bread without fears of ending up in the hospital or potentially losing a family member. People who do not want to infect anyone, not even a complete stranger.

So yeah, IMO, society can have their word in this discussion. Otherwise, it's just a monologue.